[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Economists’ rare unity highlights peril of Brexit

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e66852f0-3249-11e6-ad39-3fee5ffe5b5b.html#axzz4BRwDlLwT

kimbers - Member
Economists’ rare unity highlights peril of Brexit

Ya, they never predicted all the major world economy/financial crash didn't they?

The economists ...

Always know what to say after the event ...

Always know how to evaluate the past ...

[b]Never get the future right.[/b]

[url= http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/world-spectator-backs-brexit/ ]The Spectator backs Brexit[/url]

TMH the UK parliament is only sovereign in that it can withdraw from the EU, for the time being anyway, who knows if someone signs that away. All of Camerons achievements in his renoegotiation are worth nothing as they are not binding bailouts included, thats even in the case they call it a bailout. How about its called a European Stability Fund or a Solidarity Pact ?

Erasmus anyone can join, as I understand it Switzerland have been suspended as they won't pay in whats been asked. My daughter had a choice between Australia and Denmark, she thought Australia was too far and didn't enjoy her gap year time there that much.

70 pages long that lawyers piece, starts with the important note that the EU needs reform, you we all agree about that. The reality is it's on a path to reform directly opposed to the sort of change we and I suspect the lawyers think is necessary. They also roll out the usual EU achievements like cheap travel, environment and trade. All of which will exist outside the EU of course. They laughably suggest we have more product choice as a result of the EU but the truth is we have less, the whole raison d'etre of the EU is to create a single market which gives oreference to its members products, this reduces choice,

I missed this from Dan Hannah a month ago, barnstorming and so different from anything the "EU needs reforming but we must Remain" camp

Some people predict market crashes, Chewkw. They aren't always listened to but if you look at the early phases of a crash you'll often find someone who made the right predictions, put his money where his mouth was and that was the start of the crash. I sold my whole share portfolio in Spring 2000.

Edukator Switzerland is a big exporter with a positive balance of payments so not surprising it has to PAY for free trade access. As we are a big net importer the EU should pay us for the right to sell goods to us duty free, that's my negotiating position.

50% of our trade with them 5% of theirs with us

If you started with that they will laugh loudly and then walk out

No one not even you can think we hold all the cards when we want access to their market. in fact its not want its NEED

That's so ludicrous no teven nigel has said that at 3 am on hiw way home from a lock in.

I would suggest some proper reading* Jambas as there are too many errors to bother with each one In your reply plus there will be no direct answers - * and I don't mean Hannah either, His list of BS makes Gove appear straight.

I appreciate that 70 pages is a lot when you guys just hide behind blatant lies in simple sound bites #spoutBS #xenophobiarules

Quality debate is not required in post truth politics, neither is reading/sticking to facts.Just short, blatant lies preferably in words of few syllables

I've worked abroad only in non-EU countries namely US and Singapore.

Yes, it's possible, but nowhere near as easy.

My brother is worked in the US, but it took 6 months for his employer to secure a visa.

Unfortunately, his girlfriend who has accompanied him can't find a job in the US, nor a visa, so has to leave every few months. Unfortunately, on her return they couldn't get hold of my brother to confirm her story, so they assumed she was an illegal immigrant, she was arrested, belongings confiscated and held in a cell overnight until they could confirm who she was. it was hugely unpleasant.

They've moved back after that experience.

50% of our trade with them

You've been picked up on this before

figures are skewed and unreliable due to Rotterdam effect (which ONS state is not limited to the Netherlands, and that further gateways locations exist)

So what does remain propose we do about Greece? It will default at some point, either that or extensions will be continually granted. The Greek people can't keep living in austerity forever.

So what do we do about Greece?

So what does Brexit propose we do about Greece? It will default at some point, either that or extensions will be continually granted. The Greek people can't keep living in austerity forever.

So what do we do about Greece?

Brexit do a out Greece? Clues in the 'exit'.

Here's the tracker
http://www.ft.com/ig/sites/2015/greek-debt-monitor/

Nice link hora, it shows the Greeks are meeting their debt repayments and have no overdue debts.

So what does Brexit propose we do about Greece?

Run through the town square wearing a chicken costume screaming PANIC!

MSP - incorrect assessment. Only meeting repayments thanks to extend and pretend. Corollary of being prevented from defaulting is most severe recession/depression, and massive unemployment.

They really do have something to blame the EU about!

Brexit do a out Greece? Clues in the 'exit'.

this "point"[ I assume you are trying to make] has been covered LOADS all our "liabilities" to them are from the IMF and not the EU. Either way our "liability" is the same whether we stay or leave as we are outside the EZ and have no liabilities to the EZ.

it shows the Greeks are meeting their debt repayments and have no overdue debts

SP - incorrect assessment. Only meeting repayments

THis thread gets worse by the day by election day we will just be headbutting keyboards and posting that

Hi, next half a billion repayment due soon. This is an extra cost to ongoing cuts and savings that need to be met

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/f0f29e80-3166-11e6-bda0-04585c31b153?client=ms-android-google#

There also news items that'll never repay it's debt

Junkyard - not sure of your point. Mine was that you need to be aware of what has happened to the stock of Greek debt before you assert that it is 'up to date'. I accept though that a graph can show whatever you want it to.

IMF point not really the complete story either.

When Albanian etc join and they need funds, economic development, favourable trade deals to attract manufacturing/production away from other EU countries how do you explain more money going from other member countries to build/create these economies?

Hora - it could be beneficial to us. Their economies develop and their purchasing power increases such that our high value exports become attractive to them. We don't loose much because they fill gaps where we don't operate efficiently - comparative advantage.

Bigger risk IMHO is that no development of the Albanian economy occurs, and all their valuable people simply brain drain to the UK.

It's a bit misleading to ask what we are going to do about Greece. The funds lent to Greece went directly from Greece to Greek and International banks, leaving Greece with additional debt.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/31/business/bailout-money-goes-to-greece-only-to-flow-out-again.html?_r=0

What concerns me about this thread is no-one has asked the fundamental question; does your bike choice affect your voting?

Own up; are you-

A Transatlantic lover of liberalised economic boutique (Santa Cruz/yeti/spesh/RM) etc?

Fan of the upstart, eurozone protected bargain Eurobikez? (Cube, Lapierre, Canyon...)

Honest-to-goodness, none of that foreign muck Patriot? (Orange, Cotic, Stanton, Whyte?)

MSP the Greeks are meeting their debt repayments as the interest rate in virtually zero and most importantly they are borrowing more money to pay the bill. They are not really repaying anything, the debt is getting bigger (note they have been refunded interest they have paid so its not getting that much worse in reality)

The Greek problem will imo most likely be kicked down the road to 2018 purely for the reason that the French and Germans have elections in 2017. Then their debt will be rescheduled, this means formally admitting that a big chunk 50%(?) will never be paid back. Its been a gift. Now the bigger issue and armageddon scenario is that the Greek government well aware of the 2017 elections come back to play hardball, refuse to play ball on austerity and force a default stand off ahead of the elections. Now Merkel and Hollande are ****ed big time as they will not want o admit they've gifted €150bn of their tax payers money to Greece, at this point there is melt-down, contagion to Italy and Spain and the Germans and French ensure an EU bailout is everyone's responsibility to protect the whole EU dream (their pet project). Also practically why would they take €150bn on the chin when they can ensure the pain is shared

Johhny 🙂 One Transition one Cotic lots of Hope kit, foot in both camps

Yes, it's possible, but nowhere near as easy.

@Horatio, yes I understand that. I think it should NOT be easy.

If we need widget turners or farm labourers lets take the best ones or trade that access for something else we want.

Junky no one is publically suggesting that strategy so as not to inflame the situation, but lets wait and see. I think its a goer 🙂 (I thought it upmall on my own)

Anyway just finished singing the Marseilles (always amuses mrs B I know all the words and she doesn't) - alles les blues

The ownership of that debt isn't that simple. I read a article a while ago that shows its very complex.

In addition Greece is meeting current repayments becuase they are implementating huge austerity measures. The Greek public won't stand for this medium turn. Would you? Your current buys jets and nuclear subs on tick for what reason? Thanks Germany they say..

They WILL default.

Hora correct they will got bust, they are only meeting the debt repayments as they are being lent more money, the conditon for lending them more money is they get their budget in order (austerity)

Greece is bust already. People have known that since 2009.

The Greek people have a choice austerity or leaving the euro. Even if they leave the euro they have to have austerity.

Run through the town square wearing a chicken costume screaming PANIC!

And they are off.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/22/time-debt-reduction-greece-mohamed-el-erian

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/05/04/is-greece-just-weeks-away-from-another-debt-crisis/

I wonder how Dave would answer these With a doll like sounbites?

^^^ Indeed hora and the Greeks have €100bn of German taxpayers money and 75bn of French never mind all the small countries in the EU and all the members of the IMF (us included)

What's worse for Germany is the smaller EU countries aren't stupid they have borrowed their loan commitments from the ECB and if Greece doesn't pay they won't repay the ECB. A right buggars muddle.

The Greek people have a choice austerity or leaving the euro. Even if they leave the euro they have to have austerity.

My major concern is that without some pretty detailed reciprocal agreements we may end up restricting access to new medicines more than nice are now.
Having a single medicines regulator and manufacturing guidelines helps my industry massively. Having to register twice, once for the uk and once for Europe will delay stuff as the mhra has bugger all funding as it is so having to review all applications rather than them going to a much larger regulator is going to delay access to life saving medicines

Someone came up with a great idea. If you don't have the time/inclination to find out all the facts about the EU referendum (I don't blame you) and are possibly unsure which way to vote, perhaps knowing how other notable people are thinking could help out.

Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:

• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECD

Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:

• Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
• A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
• The guy who was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
• Leader of UKIP
• BNP
• Britain First
• Donald Trump
• Keith Chegwin
• David Icke

So, as I said, if you can’t be bothered to look into the real facts and implications of all this in/out stuff, just pick the list that you most trust and vote that way. It really couldn’t be more simple.

And if you are unsure about leaving, don't.

A nice selective list Mr Woppit. No bias in that.

[i]MSP the Greeks are meeting their debt repayments as the interest rate in virtually zero and most importantly they are borrowing more money to pay the bill. They are not really repaying anything, the debt is getting bigger (note they have been refunded interest they have paid so its not getting that much worse in reality)[/i]

Doesn't that describe the UK; running a deficit with an ever-increasing debt?

At least one of that remain list is also quite an active mountain biker if it helps swing anyones vote.

So what do we do about Greece?

Use our enormous financial brains to help them get out of a debt spiral with [s] Wonga [/s] Germany?

I've got to admit that if Michael Gove switched sides, then so would I.

br yes kind of, you can do that if your debt is affordable vs your economy/tax base. In fact the ECB has rukes for that fir the eurozone, Greece just took the mickey in a non funny way and hid hige amounts of debt. Credit crises hit and markets asked for higher rates to comoensate for risk, Greece came clean about hidden debt - boom 🙁

Junky sums up reality, they can have eurozone austerity or their own currency and much worse consequences. That's their two choices. When you are a debt junky you are not in control (boom tish)

I do laugh about Germany being made out to be the bad guy here l, without German money the Greeks would be using Drachma again and their country would be in far worse shape than it is now. Where Germany was the bad guy is they ignored the fact Greece was borrowing like crazy well beyond ECB limits

Great list Mr Woppit

Appeal to authority, Appeal to Celebrity, Ad-hominem, Ultracrepidarianism, Apex fallacy & Nutpicking.

All in one! Impressive!

Think of the panadas ninfan

kimbers - Member
So its Farige vs Geldoff on the Thames at the moment

"Here are the facts about fishing," he yelled. "One, Britain makes more money than any other country in Europe from fishing. Two, Britain has the second largest quota for fish in Europe after Denmark. Three, Britain has the third largest landings. Four, you are no fisherman's friend. You were on the European Parliament Fishing Committee and you attended one out of 43 meetings.

Anyone fancy going down to one of the bridges and dropping some livestock on shameless bullshitter farige?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjyDdE2WF3M

Well it wasn't far off...
[url= https://twitter.com/kerryjeanlister/status/743086816430043136?s=09 ]Farage vs Partridge[/url]

We have no exposure to future Euro Zone emergency funding.

The last time we did provide a bridge loan, which was fully collateralised and paid back in full. If we did chose to provide future funding for Greece then it legally has to be under the same terms.

We are more exposed via the IMF - which is not related to the referendum

Germany are among the bad guys here - no question - the unilateral blaming of the Greeks is both ignorant (true sense) and shameful. They will have to restructure their debt that has always been obvious and creditors will take a hit. As they should.

Mr Woppit have you been fed Facebook gif images?

You forget the architects of the 2008 recession, the banking crisis, the birth of PFI Messers Bliar and Brown. Who also preceded over Iraq Part II, then we have Afghanistan, Libya...where Mr Cameron comes in.

Out of 3800 Economists approached for a loaded survey just over 600 decided to respond. Wonder why the rest chose not to participate?

Let's not worry what a small racist bloke thinks or an ex-Mayor who can't articulate properly think. I dislike politicians.

Let's look at facts. Seen our trade percentage figures with the EU and how they've dropped markedly since 2008?

No I guess you wouldn't

Greece and another country will kill the EU dream. Let's not be mired nuts-deep when that baby goes off.

Greece debt- the private companies who sold Greece billions in warfare equipment on credit, the debt guaranteed by the German taxpayer. The Greek Olympics, look at that fiasco.

Guess what happens when new members join? EU countries will be lining up to upgrade all their infrastructure with debt.

I saw Bob Geldof on the news earlier and thought wtf? Why are politicians speaking in sounbites and some remain crowd focusing on the idiots rather than ignoring politicians and actually sitting down and thinking instead of Dave (he's hardly been the mastermind of a recovery has he, made loads of cuts to emergency services, etc etc) yet we still aren't close to the fiscal gap how many years on from when he first won power?

You lot listen to him and his crowd? A major player over sideshow Nigel and bumbling Boris?!

Ex-Orange chap Michael Bonnet is speaking alot of sense over on Facebook on the subject. He's obviously reading up and weighing up the facts. Not just reading Google top hits or news at ten.

You forget the architects of the 2008 recession, the banking crisis

Plenty of shit to be flung at them but that is nonsense.

TBH the rest ins an incomprehensible stream of consciousness from you that meanders from gibberish to complete gibberish

Greece and another country will kill the EU dream. Let's not be mired nuts-deep when that baby goes off.

More eloquently put than I have managed previously. This is the elephant in the room when it comes to economic "predictions"

We have no exposure to future Euro Zone emergency funding.

Correct as the demand hasn't been handed over by Junker yet. Like I said Cameron's bit of paper reminds me of Chamberlain in the Costello song, "a condemned man's stare as he waved a piece of paper in the air, the crowd all cheered wildly" except we are not buying it and we are not cheering

For us thickies, could either of you (hora and Jambas) explain how we will be affected by the elephant. If its that big, the answers must be easy.

Thanks in advance ....

P.S. an explanation of why it will be different from our last funding would be helpful

When the S hits the fan we will be told its our Treaty commitment to save the project. PM will come back and say its in our economic interests to stablise the EU to protect trade

BTW collateralised is quite a laugh

Can you explain why? And on what terms might we participate?

So there is a week to go. Not sure what to expect, desperation turned to 11 ? We've got the IMF who'll be releasing detailed "meeting minutes" (political propoganda) on the 21st I think. Hard to think what Remain can possibly do now, they are shot. Osbourne's "Brexit budget" got slapped down so easily

Can you explain why? And on what terms might we participate?

I did already, no choice under the Treaty and whatever terms Junker decides. Did you read the drafts of the last proposed fund ? EU to the max

Greece and another country will kill the EU dream. Let's not be mired nuts-deep when that baby goes off.
More eloquently put than I have managed previously. This is the elephant in the room when it comes to economic "predictions"

If we leave the EU, what would the World think if some economic disaster befell us in 10 or 20 years? I hope the Worlds view is not as self preserving as the tryical Brexiter.

No you didn't, why is the legal commitment to fully collateralised funding "quite a laugh"? Have you read the documents because I have...

Did it work last time - you still have answered the question about what happened last time? Was it collateralised and was it paid back? Tow simple questions requiring two, one-word answers. Go on....

Teamhurtmore, you don't sit around the table eating what you like then excuse yourself to the bathroom when the bill comes.

Simple enough terms?

Remain have used 'your house prices will suffer', taxes will go up.

What do you think will happen in <5yrs when something major does happen anyway?

Dave gets the public in apparent agreement with him. What do you think he'll push ahead with?

Do you think he'll sit there and behave?

He's a Tory, he'll carry on with his plans to screw our country.

At least a out victory will say no Dave, we don't agree.

We should look for change. Our/the EU as it is is like a lifeless marriage and we are scared to think what being anything else would be like.

Anyway I'm out. I'm a working class Graduate, who volunteers weekly, gives blood regularly and would step in for anyone in trouble.

I just would like to humanise the other camp. Remain paints us as idiots who are quasi-racist. Im sick of the hold the Tories have and how weak the opposition are. Something needs to change.

See you on the other side and good luck.

That's a lot of words but no answer.....unsurprising.

Good luck indeed, you sound quite tense. Is it having to pretend all the lies are in fact true? That must be stressful.

I have the EU legislation in front of me, so you can sleep easy re our liability to Greece, That's one less burden to carry for you. Let Jambas stress unnecessarily about that one for you.

If you really believe that you are quite simply deluded tmh. Having the 1000's of pages of the various documents in front of you on a web page is one thing understanding how it really works is quite another.

I am with Boris, Gove, Hannan and all those in the Leave camp that share my view on how we will be obliged to pay up. Its all about the project or as Alex would say the dream. They won't allow that to die for the sake of a trillion euros.

Mr Woppit - Member
Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:

• Governor of the Bank of England [b](his job is on the line)[/b]
• International Monetary Fund [b](Legalised international loan shark)[/b]
• Institute for Fiscal Studies [b](Only studied past events)[/b]
• Confederation of British Industry [b](protecting individual self interest)[/b]
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU [b](they want to you to feed them, their population and they want to share you)[/b]
• President of the United States of America [b](The good, the bad and the ugly all in one person not the person but the position)[/b]
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries [b](how many recession and financial crisis caused by them combine? They might have a stake somewhere in some big businesses)[/b]
• President of China [b](tell China that you want to educate their people)[/b]
• Prime Minister of India [b](never offer an advise for the minority)[/b]
• Prime Minister of Canada [b](probably pal with France)[/b]
• Prime Minister of Australia [b](they are trying to cut ties with BritLand)[/b]
• Prime Minister of Japan [b](whatever Merican says ...)[/b]
• Prime Minister of New Zealand [b](whatever Aussie says ...)[/b]
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc. [b](You listen to CEOs regarding your life you might as well hang yourself)[/b]
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations [b](I thought he has retired? Is he a consultant now?)[/b]
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties) [b](none possessed the leadership quality that can handle the responsibility of the nation)[/b]
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists [b](look to the past but never get the future right ... talk a lot, inflate self worth)[/b]
• The Prime Minister of the UK [b](Toast!)[/b]
• The leader of the Labour Party [b](Communist from the past) [/b]
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats [b](the true stereotype of BritLand people) [/b]
• The Leader of the Green Party [b](smoking too much weed I guess)[/b]
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party [b](Freedommm! Revenge! Revenge!)[/b]
• The leader of Plaid Cymru [b](trying to emulate SNP leadership style)[/b]
• Leader of Sinn Fein [b](You don't say you don't know?)[/b]
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly [b](Shut up! (young girl's expression) Who is this insignificant person?)[/b]
• The Secretary General of the TUC [b](are the elites still demanding pay increase for themselves?)[/b]
• Unison [b](How much have you dude out of the people you are representing? How much are you paid?)[/b]
• National Union of Students [b](little bunnies are going to the pot)[/b]
• National Union of Farmers [b](All the members or just the ones doing well?)[/b]
• Stephen Hawking [b](I am sorry but as clever as you are this is not the time for you to voice your concern)[/b]
• Chief Executive of the NHS [b](another CEO ... how much do you get paid?)[/b]
• 300 of the most prominent international historians [b](Didn't Rome teach you a lesson?)[/b]
• Director of Europol [b](Just do your job properly! Did you see that coming with all your intelligence?)[/b]
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation [b](Do you job properly with what you have!)[/b]
• Former Directors of GCHQ [b](just do you job rather than getting others to do it for you ... besides that's your former job)[/b]
• Secretary General of Nato [b](Crikey, what BritLand be part of Russia?)[/b]
• Church of England [b](stick to your own belief)[/b]
• Church in Scotland [b](stick to your own belief)[/b]
• Church in Wales [b](stick to your own belief)[/b]
• Friends of the Earth [b](if BritLand is OUT of EU we are not going to torture Earth you know)[/b]
• Greenpeace [b](you need to get bit more violence otherwise you are push over and BritLand ain't going to be told/advised by push over.)[/b]
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation [b](You change tone we give you good pension in Brazil for the rest of your life)[/b]
• WWF [b](you need to start shooting poachers you know ... )[/b]
• World Bank [b](part of the load shark cartel)[/b]
• OECD [b](Just publish information and stick your nose somewhere else)[/b]

^^^ Just had some fun answering the above ... 😆

Crikey that many on the list want to enslave the population no wonder life is getting worst everyday ...

As for the economists ...
They evaluate past information.
They criticised past events only after they are over.
But none could predict the past recession or global financial crisis until the crisis was over.

I am with Boris, Gove, Hannan and all those in the Leave camp that share my view on how we will be obliged to pay up

I am with Boris, Gove, Hannan and all those in the Leave camp that share my view on how we will be obliged to pay up

I just would like to humanise the other camp. Remain paints us as idiots who are quasi-racist. Im sick of the hold the Tories have and how weak the opposition are. Something needs to change.

paints us as idiots who are quasi-racist

Well, given the evidence in this thread, it would be very, very difficult to come to any other conclusion 🙁

This one alone:

Stephen Hawking (I am sorry but as clever as you are this is not the time for you to voice your concern)

Out of the people I know, the science and engineering community are entirely for remain. Prof Hawking is absolutely correct to express his concerns publicly as Brexit would have significant implications for research and for applied sciences

"Stephen Hawking (I am sorry but as clever as you are this is not the time for you to voice your concern)"

defines the poster as an utter ****

Indeed. Mentioning Stephen Hawking's voice when everyone knows that he needs to use a speech synthesiser is churlish to say the least.

I'm going to say one thing in public then do another in private, boooooom that's how we roll!

I loves me cheap builders, cleaners, nannies, retirement home care workers!

Who'd work in all them holiday camps, London Hotels, tourist coffee shops, tourist eateries, garden centres, hospitals would be filthy without migrant labour! Who'd cram all those men into those unfit houses (Crumpsall and Higher Broughton shining Manchester examples), drive taxis at night (under someone else's licence), work in takeaway kitchens and car wash stations (cash businesses) makes you think ehh! thank **** I don't do any of those jobs or am subject to first generation immigrants exploitation!

rkk01 - Member
This one alone:
Stephen Hawking (I am sorry but as clever as you are this is not the time for you to voice your concern)

defines the poster as an utter ****

You are not a full pint aren't you if you cannot even get the last word spell out ...

Out of the people I know, the science and engineering community are entirely for remain. Prof Hawking is absolutely correct to express his concerns publicly as Brexit would have significant implications for research and for applied sciences

ernie_lynch - Member
Indeed. Mentioning Stephen Hawking's voice when everyone knows that he needs to use a speech synthesiser is churlish to say the least.

Ah I see I see ... wrong word as in language usage ...

No, I am not standing that low to aim at someone else disability so try not suggest that or twist my words. Let's put it this way in our culture it is a taboo to talk about other's disability. Search through this forum to see if I take a swipe at their disability ... simple.

I am aiming at his views which I am sure most you will agreed is fair game. 🙂

However, you lot are all fair game when it comes to logic ... coz yours are messed up dude!

They have their reasons I have mine. I don't tell them where to get their funding they should not tell me how to vote. They stick to their way of life I stick to mine. Everyone's happy.

mikewsmith - Member

They have their reasons I have mine. I don't tell them where to get their funding they should not tell me how to vote. They stick to their way of life I stick to mine. Everyone's happy.

Oh the **** irony

[url= http://www.nature.com/news/turning-point-1.20082 ]Nature editorial[/url]

and the thing I actually came to post...
There has been a lot said about how the remain is all negative and criticising of the magic beans land of milk and honey pitch from Leave and how it's all that damm negativity thats the main problem...
So, my bit of a what has the EU ever done for us/me

I was over at a European sales meeting in Paris recently, people from all over the EU turned up. For the 3 days everyone was happily using their phones, business as usual as the EU had delivered a great deal on cross border EU wide phone charges. Things like that make buisness run smoother across borders and increases productivity.

I also just hopped on a train and after some brief passport control got off in Paris, after the meeting I went and spent a week up in Amsterdam with one of the distributors. Simple easy movement of people with no visa regulations meant I could do this easily. Compare that with some of my other recent trips (US visa needed, Indoneasian Visa needed and Singapore paperwork... queues stress hassle and cash) If you want to work in the US it's still either a lottery or difficult process, want your partner to be able to work 😆
Not straight forward for lots of places. The way the EU works allows things like airbus to spread the work between countries ensuring lots can share in it's sucess rather than one and lots can share the risk too.

Standards - harmomising standards for testing of cars, electrical appliances etc may not be perfect but it's harmonised. One thing to aim for not 28, want to improve or change these - we need to be in the EU to do that. Out of the EU we would just have to follow and be judged by them (remember that market is the largest economy in the world)

Rural Development Funding - changing the way we use and manage our countryside. Funding things like the 7 Stanes and other projects working to redevelop communities that were failing, of course you can do that without the EU just nobody did..

Anti Trust and Competition
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_competition_law
Taking on the big guys (the ones people keep claiming are above the law) and rectifying practice, fining and changing the way these people operate. The UK could do some of this but doing it from an EU level is much stronger and better for all consumers in the long run.

Just a short sample of things, I'm sure many more can be added, but now for the opinion bit...
There are lots of complaints about things like not getting what we want, getting a raw deal etc. here is how public perception stands up against fact
[img] [/img]

And now for the real problem, the UK's impression of the EU is based on what we put in, we elect people like Farage who has no interest in working with anyone for the benefit of the UK. He takes his cash and does nothing, so everytime somebody tells you the EU won't let us or the EU doesn't work for us just see how much those MEP's actually tried.
[img] [/img]

So in summary - it's not perfect but leaving means
we give away a lot (is that a negative?)
gain very little
retain the soverengty we already have
still have the laws we make
still have to work within EU standards or regulations

So if you want change don't ditch the EU ditch the shit MEP's, or better still actuall vote in the EU elections and take your own MP to task too.

I'm up in Leeds right now. Goole to be precise, lovely place. Had the pleasure of witnessing a referendum meeting at the hotel in which I was staying. Opinion of the the young lad and lass on the bar was that is you're a narrow minded racist who couldn't find Europe on a map, then you'll probably vote out.
There were a worrying number of them though.

Whenever I've spoken to 'leave' voters and we've worked through their reasons for their vote..it's always ended up with concerns about Muslims and immigration. That appears to be the base of it.

So if you want change don't ditch the EU ditch the shit MEP's, or better still actuall vote in the EU elections and take your own MP to task too.

Agreed

So anyone who wants to vote for Brexit is narrow minded? That's a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. That's a great way to conduct a debate in a modern democracy isn't it? Deploying 6 year old school playground tactics in abusing anyone with different views to themselves.

Sightly disingenuous that HFW alone gets the credit for fighting against a rule/law that was brought in by the EU in the first place. I don't believe for a second that it was his petition and his petition alone that caused the EU to change their policy. What other pressure was being applied to the EU...I don't know, say from the French and Spanish fishing industries? I wonder who would have had more sway in the EU decision making process? The French and Spanish fishing lobby or HFW and his 'not quite a million' signatures? Talk about a no-brainer issue anyway.

I love the way so many things that have been brought in while we've been a member of the EU have been attributed to the EU. For example alot of the environmental policies have not been brought in by the EU, but by the UN and other international bodies and forums, and just endorsed by the EU....but the EU gets the credit. And in alot of cases most member states have implemented rules that go beyond those brought in by the EU.

There is alot of smoke and mirrors going on with both sides.

I'm no longer worried about Brexit. It's obvious that there is no exit plan and no-one will dare light the 2-year exit fuse. After N years of futile talks about hypothetical future trade deals (and the rest of it) there will be new general election at which the main parties will all promise to light the fuse when the time is right...and it never will be.

Of course there will be plenty of collateral damage to the economy, and especially those at the bottom of it. And it will damage our relationship with the EU, without actually changing it fundamentally. So I don't loook forward to a brexit vote, but I can't see it really affecting me much either way. And it's certainly fun watching the tories rip themselves apart over it.

What other pressure was being applied to the EU...I don't know, say from the French and Spanish fishing industries? I wonder who would have had more sway in the EU decision making process? The French and Spanish fishing lobby or HFW and his 'not quite a million' signatures? Talk about a no-brainer issue anyway.

They have their reasons I have mine. I don't tell them where to get their funding they should not tell me how to vote. They stick to their way of life I stick to mine. Everyone's happy.

But that's NOT what's going on here.
Hawking isn't telling anyone how to vote (and IMO the other non-politicians aren't either).

People are voting for one of two different futures for this country - it's right that people do that with knowledge, and Hawking etc have been pointing out where the EU benefits the UK in areas that might not be obvious to all voters. It's up to individuals to make up their own mind on that info...

(and come on, the Brexiters have been vocal telling people to Vote Leave 😉 )

Whenever I've spoken to 'leave' voters and we've worked through their reasons for their vote..it's always ended up with concerns about Muslims and immigration. That appears to be the base of it.

[img] [/img]

edit - trying to be helpful with [img]
nice chart Ben 😉

That Nature editorial ^^ is worth reading