[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Well, about a week until the next recession. I've stocked up on tins of beans.

🙂

Don't forget this, Protect and Survive

Come on jambas mon ami - just one little [s]waffer mint[/s] sorry, link....

So Tom Watson sort of gets it. He says today that Labour aren't listening to voters concern - yup. He says that freedom of movement within the EU [b]may[/b] need to be looked at in the future.

Nearly there. It has already been looked at and the clear feedback is that its central to the EU and non-negotiable. You know what's next, we have to take back control of our borders by leaving the EU

It has already been looked at

So there must be some links that are easy to find. Or is it just scaremongering/xenophobia. One or the other.....

Don't forget this, Protect and Survive

Too right - this bit:

Is what the NHS will be like if Boris becomes PM

TMH - from your response you agree with me, except for my assertion that the flow of labour is only going to be one way. I should have clarified this better - the flow of labour between France and England could be equally both ways if the English were better at foreign languages, or if the French didn't want to work in the City and get taxed more equitably. However the flow of labour between somewhere like Romania and the UK isn't ever going to be two way, even if everyone spoke the same language.

Regarding your request for a link - whether you blame unscrupulous UK gangmasters/employers, or the free movement of labour alone, it would seem odd to argue that immigration from certain parts of the EU has not lowered wages for those who can least afford it. I don't really see any basis for that assertion, especially as the equalisation of wages would be one expected outcome from the implementation of the free movement of labout in a currency area, were it working effectively? It's a long time since I studied macroeconomics so maybe I am wrong.

I'm sure THM will answer for himself, but it seems to me that your claim rests on the assumption that immigration doesn't change anything except the demand for jobs, whereas there are plenty of examples (one featured on R4 Today this morning) where immigrant labour allows a business to prosper and hence create jobs at the bottom of the scale.

1, no I don't agree with you.

2. It's not an odd argument at all. There is no evidence to support Jambas claim.* None at all, which is why you guys cannot provide a link, Simple.

3. It's not macroeconomics you need, it's micro and the theory of labour and an understanding of how demand and supply of labour works. Otherwise the conclusions become "partial and simplistic. "

*I was thinking that you guys might at least try to misuse/misquote the BoE analysis on the subject that the BS spokesman refer to. Ironically not only does their chosen work conclude that the impact is both specific and small but it is less than their previous study from 7-8 years despite the fact that volumes have increased. Now go and work that one out!!!

Interesting programme on BBC2 on immigration just now. Of course it is on against the football, so the ones who need to watch will not do so. (Unfortunately it gives airtime to the revolting Rod "two black savages" Liddle)

- IDS is saying that the issue is not money (since immigrants contribute taxes) it's that British people don't feel comfortable with foreigners.

Here's a question I thought of whilst out riding in this particular part of Europe.

If you vote leave, this causes a recession, and your employer needs to make redundancies, will you volunteer first? Fair enough, no?

Good bit on C4 news this evening about NHS and immigrants. NHS pays out about £4bn to EU governments for treatment of UK citizens living abroad while claiming back about about £400 million for the treatment of EU nationals in the UK.

It mentioned that EU nationals living in the UK spend 50% less time in UK hospitals that UK citizens, whilst many UK citizens living abroad are retired and thus expensive.
Also the NHS has a poor track record of claiming the money it can from other EU governments for treatment.

ATG - no surprises there. Most EU immigrants are young and healthy and tend to go home for medical treatment - as the same news showed, because they prefer the service at home!

Dr -is that really true? When did IDS say that?

[quote=ninfan ]7:10, the racist ****.

I saw the fella before him speak last time I think my point still stands about how well they integrate they become little englanders themself and adopt our ways of resenting immigration. Its a marvellous example of how well they integrate I think .

DrJ where are these 300,000 people per anum living, where are all the empty houses, spare hospital beds and school places they are filling up ?

Never was "dog whistle", its not in Canada, Australia, New Zealand or indeed everywhere else in the world where freedom of movement does not exist. Vote Leave put out a short film today showing how the EU is the one with the racist immigration policy, in fact the official IN leaflet says we will not favour non-EU families. That's racist

[url=

Link[/url]

Link?

2 Hopes and Bob's dead

A proper link - not to BSers Facebook.

Hmm, that's interesting. I asked 12 hours ago about how many livelihoods and jobs the leavers thought it would be worth wrecking, with all the concomitant misery that follows, for the sake of achieving an exit - no replies.

@ Jambalaya, you seem to be the leave campaign's mouthpiece here, how many livelihoods is it worth? I'd like to know as you must have given it some thought? 5000, 10,000 ..........

Jamby your assertion that the free movement of nationals within the EU common market is racist is ****ing absurd even by your standards

In UK terms what this means is its racist that a welsh person can move to glasgow or London because an indian cannot without immigration control

IT's patently absurd and we will be even more racist if we leave as we will let even fewer nations- ie NONE- move here freely than we do now

PLease at least have some semblance of sense and logic to your online persona.

Oh yes - good point on telly now - no more booze cruises if we leave.

THM BBC 2 programme w mishal Hussain just now. I imagine it's on iplayer.

Thx - I dipped in and out of that

Jambas, an aside for the moment. When should FTSE shorts be covered?

Foolish to be short, its going to be volatile. SMH has been short eurostoxx for 3 years, I doubt he's covered.

Agreed with long vol 😉

I think my point still stands about how well they integrate they become little englanders themself and adopt our ways of resenting immigration. Its a marvellous example of how well they integrate I think .

'They'?

🙄

I could have said immigrants but then you would have asked my how I knew he was an immigrant

Ninfan if you wont ever be sensible i will stop trying my once per month attempt to engage with you to see if you have stopped just scribbling.

DrJ there is always a first time for everything so I have reported your persistant abuse of me

are you going to answer the question on jobs Jambalaya??

[b]Be happy Vote OUT or Vote Leave[/b] ... 😆

Some of you are really thinking too much as if you are going to be affected like a bunch of self defeatists ...

As Michael Jackson once said with his soft voice: "You are ignorant! You are ignorant!". 😆

I still think Remain will win but a Brexit win does now seem to be a possibility at least. Its amazing how the vibe has changed in the last 10 days since the Select Committee rubbished some of the crap figures (critical mainly of the Treasury guff about us being £4,000 worse off by 2025 etc) and then that awesome person mocking Cameron for waffling. Eevn the BBC is being more even handed now and its become safe at work to say Brexit without getting told off. Bring on Brexit!

Hmm, something to look forward to. You must be delighted Jambalaya.

http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2016/05/21/priti-patel-admits-leave-campaign-agenda-to-reduce-workers-rights-tuc/

hh45 - answer my question. Would you volunteer for redundancy due to a recession that you helped cause?

bainbrge - Member

is pretty unpleasant, patronising and supercilious. You need to work on this as not everyone is as stupid as you seem to think.

Don't be too harsh on THM, I don't think he is quite as clever as he would like to be, hence his constant attempts to make others look stupid, and thereby, so he thinks, him more clever.

Sadly for him it just makes him look a little bit stupid, something which it appears he is too daft to realise.

His response to you is a perfect example :

[i]"Sorry are you suggesting that they were neither thoughtful nor informed, even stupid!?! THAT is is pretty unpleasant etc..."[/i]

How childish to pretend that you meant something different - it's sort of thing that you might expect from a 13 year old. I don't think he's 13 🙂

Evening ernie

You are correct. Saying something that others do not mean is very childish. Not surprise that you picked that up, eh?

Anything meaningful to contribute while you are here?

Edukator - Reformed Troll

A few pages back Jamba claimed France had become EU Skeptic. I've now gone through polls over several years and haven't found one more EU skeptic than 55% remain to 45% Frexit (stripping out the don't knows). Perhaps I've missed something. In terms of demands for a referendum, about 50% are in favour.

I linked to a very recent poll which I mentioned to you before, look through my posts.

hh45 - Member

I still think Remain will win but a Brexit win does now seem to be a possibility at least.

Yes, if STW sample population is a reflection of the society then Remain has won or will win.

Therefore, Remain has already won on STW.

Whatever the future consequences good or bad they can look back and think about the day they voted.

It's all about the survival of fittest after that.

C'est la vie

So a week to go does anyone still think the idiots aren't going to win? I've resigned myself to it already. I've always thought this country was largely a liberal, mostly well educated place, but when I hear people I previously thought were intelligent spouting UKIP bollox as if it were fact and thinking Boris Johnson is a champion of the NHS I realise I was sadly mistaken.

dazh - Member
So a week to go does anyone still think the idiots aren't going to win? I've resigned myself to it already. I've always thought this country was largely a liberal, mostly well educated place, but when I hear people I previously thought were intelligent spouting UKIP bollox as if it were fact and thinking Boris Johnson is a champion of the NHS I realise I was sadly mistaken.

If you look at your Labour working class abusers or lefties class abusers you will know that the working class in this country will remain as working class for a long time to come.

The lefties elite trick is to keep them as working class by brainwashing the people to feel good about themselves at the bottom of societal scale. Blame others ...

My view of BritLand is different from yours.

Intelligent - yes.

Liberal - yes.

Wrong decision - yes.

Well, i have waited for the one true voice to help me with the referendum,and David Icke the son of god has told me to vote brexit,so all the 6 foot lizards on the other side can go and shed a skin

The lefties elite trick is to keep them as working class by brainwashing the people to feel good about themselves at the bottom of societal scale. Blame others ...

You really think that thats going to sink in? FFS, Lenin warned them 96 years ago:

[i]...the Labour Party is a thoroughly bourgeois party, because, although made up of workers, it is led by reactionaries, and the worst kind of reactionaries at that, who act quite in the spirit of the bourgeoisie. It is an organisation of the bourgeoisie, which exists to systematically dupe the workers...[/i]

Marx warned them 96 years ago

Marx warned them 96 years ago

Marx wasn't alive 96 years ago.

EDIT : And through the powers of editing Marx is transformed to Lenin.

Good quote though ninfan. It's remarkable how little has changed. Apart from the Labour Party being even more bourgeois now than it was 100 years ago.

ninfan - Member
You really think that thats going to sink in? FFS, Lenin warned them 96 years ago:
[i]...the Labour Party is a thoroughly bourgeois party, because, although made up of workers, it is led by reactionaries, and the worst kind of reactionaries at that, who act quite in the spirit of the bourgeoisie. It is an organisation of the bourgeoisie, which exists to systematically dupe the workers...[/i]

Crikey, if Lenin said that then we are in deep poo poo ...

The working class really needs to wake up ...

So all those Remaners who speak of EU reform and leadership from within such as Ed Balls and Tom Watson who have now both spoken of the need to address free mkvement and economic migration this article amd the quites from within the EU show the EU has absolitely no intention to listen to reform on these issues

The [UK] agreement was hard-fought as it was,” said one EU official. “Many thought the maximum concessions had already been given and too much had been given.”

You cannot go any further without questioning the whole project.”

This last quote shows how EU politicians see freedom of movement as core to the whole project, as such it is lear it will never be changed and this despite widespread opposition accross the EU from citizens

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/14/tom-watson-eu-freedom-movement-may-need-reform#comment-76390973 ]Guardian Link[/url]

So a week to go does anyone still think the idiots aren't going to win?

Idiots who want the same sort of country as Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan etc etc. The EU is unique, nothing like it exists anywhere else in the world and frankly no one is trying to copy the model. There is a reason for that.

Personally I think it could be close but I now believe if its a big win it will be for Leave. This is very different from my view at the start of the campaign where I thought best Leave result would likely be say 53 v 47. Now I think 60 v 40 is an outside possibility for Leave

Junkyard - lazarus

You have forgotten that they are the only two

Yes, only two people are in favour of Brexit.

Jesus H Titty ****ing Christ.
Never in the space of one shift have I seen so much shit being chatted!

TMH mentions investment and stimulating growth.
How is funding non-EU countries to take over our manufacturing stimulating our growth?

I can only only conclude that this is a point scoring exercise for you, except you have no idea that it will always be nil-nil.

@Nipper Priti is part of a Conservative government raising the minimum wage, increasing the tax free allowance and growing the economy. She is also part of a government looking to make strike ballots more meaningful. I am in favour of all of those things.

are you going to answer the question Jambalaya??

Good quote though ninfan. It's remarkable how little has changed. Apart from the Labour Party being even more bourgeois now than it was 100 years ago.

@ Ernie - apologies for the momentary yet quickly corrected brain fart when typing, I think you know that I knew it was Lenins speech to the Comintern really

Yes, it is a good quote - because it shows that Labour never was the trade union or workers revolutionary workers party that many of their members claim it was or should be.

I don't know what you mean by that. The Labour Party was formed by the trade unions to represent them in parliament. And all the reforms introduced by Labour governments were under pressure from the trade unions. So the strategy has been successful in achieving benefits for working people. It's still a bourgeois party though.

The EU is unique, nothing like it exists anywhere else in the world and frankly no one is trying to copy the model. There is a reason for that.

I give you ASEAN and the next steps where free(er) movement of migrants is on the books. Although chances of it ever actually happening are not good. 2017 is in theory the year it is fully implemented. I am sure chewk knows more than me

So Jamby,how is Priti going to save £4.3b a year on labour costs to businesses?

the post brexit goverment are going to find the 15% reduction in research funds, and compensate the farmers! wooo!

it's coming from the budget! it's ok! there wont be a recession, the tax base will increase, we'll get the rebate, all those migrants will go away.

Boris, Gove, Murdoch, Flange and IBS love us and want us to be happy.

all those experts are a) wrong, and b) unpatriotic

hey, being stupid is easy! woo!

Clicking her heels together 3 times I assume..
From the BBC this morning

Vote Leave said it wanted to see a law called the European Union Law (Emergency Provisions) Bill - to "end the European Court of Justice's control over national security and allow the government to deport criminals from the EU" - passed in the current session of Parliament.
Then in subsequent sessions it wants:
Finance Bill - This would abolish the 5% rate of VAT on household energy bills by amending the Value Added Tax Act 1994. It would be paid for by savings from the UK's contributions to the EU budget, Vote Leave said.
National Health Service (Funding Target) Bill - The NHS would receive a £100m per week real-terms cash "transfusion", to be paid for by savings from leaving the EU.
Asylum and Immigration Control Bill - "To end the automatic right of all EU citizens to enter the UK."
Free Trade Bill - The UK leaves the EU's "common commercial policy" to "restore the UK government's power to control its own trade policy".
European Communities Act 1972 (Repeal) Bill - The European Communities Act 1972, "the legal basis for the supremacy of EU law in the UK", will be repealed. "The EU Treaties will cease to form part of UK law and the European Court's jurisdiction over the UK will end," said Vote Leave.

So I hope we are all counting
100 Million a week for the NHS
x Million a week for the Fuel Tax cut
x Million a week for all the schemes that they said would still be funded

(I'm taking a bet that the numbers wont add up there...)

I like how there seems to be an argument on the left about how Leave's spending claims are unfunded, whilst complaining about a) Tory austerity measures, b) how the Tories haven't got rid of the budget deficit/are still increasing national debt, and c) espousing the "spend your way out of debt" school of economics.

So Jamby,how is Priti going to save £4.3b a year on labour costs to businesses?

I like how there seems to be an argument on the left about how Leave's spending claims are unfunded, whilst complaining

And it's good wholesome true blue British sand I've got my head in, none of this foreign muck

I don't think that Brexit would cause a recession although I do accept that there will be volatility in the markets but day to day life will continue. we have to try to see into the future and decide whether UK has best chance as an indie nation or as part of a team where we will always be in conflict with some of our team mates.

The CEO of Rolls Royce was on R4 earlier saying Brexit would hinder investment decisions but I didn't really think he actually explained why. or whether it meant actually that their next plant would be in Europe rather than Derby if we left. I sensed he was either confused or under the Govt cosh.

I still think that Remain will win.

Many will be disappointed when the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow the Brexit campaign is promising doesn't materialise and they suddenly realise all their human rights are in the hands of Tory politicians.

You'll have to link it again, sbob, this thread is 122 pages. Sorry.

TMH mentions investment and stimulating growth.

...and trade don't forget. Keeping it nice and simple

Agg Demand = Consumption + Investment + Givernment Spending + Net Trade (X-M)

Membership of the EU has boosted each of these items. Quie simple really.

How is funding non-EU countries to take over our manufacturing stimulating our growth?

Basics of trade and comparative advantage - not that this is what we are doing despite the amusing FB list posted a few pages back (look at where we screwed up, errr, blame the EU/foreigners...)

Patel's making it up. Nothing new there, she represents the BSers. Everyone of their core arguments (see the website) can be falsified with little effort. Hence this is all coming down to common sense/economics v xenophobia/immigration.

The underbelly of our society has been exposed for what it is. And not a pretty sight.

@Nipper Priti is part of a Conservative government raising the minimum wage, increasing the tax free allowance and growing the economy. She is also part of a government looking to make strike ballots more meaningful. I am in favour of all of those things.

How has she achieved so much when she doesn't have "control"?

Why do people assume that Brexit means Tory government? We will still have governments of all persuasions. in fact, we could have a Labour Govt by say September after a snap emergency election following the rejection of Cameron / Osborne. It could be Corbyn negotiating the d=exit detail.

Why do people assume that Brexit means Tory government? We will still have governments of all persuasions. in fact, we could have a Labour Govt

It seems to be used on both sides, voting based on the current UK government is like cutting your hands off because you don't like your gloves.

Why do people assume that Brexit means Tory government? We will still have governments of all persuasions. in fact, we could have a Labour Govt by say September after a snap emergency election following the rejection of Cameron / Osborne. It could be Corbyn negotiating the d=exit detail.

It's fairly simple: that's the government we have now: Anything else is purely speculation and playing fantasy politics.

If we vote to leave (which I believe we will) then the Remain campaign will only have themselves to blaim. All their publications have been negative. Not a single leaflet I've received has put a positive outlook on remaining.

It's all been 'if we leave you will lose this, you will lose that, you will be £x worse off, food will cost more'. Sell the benefits of staying if you believe them, not simply pick holes in the Leave campaign.

Look on the bright side 'remainers' if 'vote leave' win next Thursday, at least we can wave goodbye to Gideon.

How he expects to keep his job if 'vote leave' win is absolutely comical. He has painted such a gloomy picture regarding the 'pending' economic storm post brexit that he has lost all credibility as chancellor.

So if a 0.6 % drop in GDP when we leave would wipe out the savings we'd get from not paying into the EU then there won't even be the fantasy 350/250/100million extra to pump into anything

all their human rights are in the hands of Tory politicians.

How has she achieved so much when she doesn't have "control"?

No really they haven't....

"take control", this wooly but effective message, is a cornerstone (along with be scared of Johnny F). Read yesterday's Ft article on the architect

And the website address

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/

It's another BS message - click today and you get the lies about a fictional sum of money that can be spent multiple times. The truth behind post truth politics. Treat those you are supposed to serve with contempt and subservient to your own political ambition. Shameful.

(along with be scared of Johnny F)

Again - such a simplistic opinion of people who favour Leaving, and why Remain will lose. The Remain campaign treats Leave people with disdain, and looks down on them.

(my comment is not aimed at you teamhurtmore - it's directed at the Remain campaign).

Look on the bright side 'remainers' if 'vote leave' win next Thursday, at least we can wave goodbye to Gideon.

The Remain campaign treats Leave people with disdain, and looks down on them.
(my comment is not aimed at you teamhurtmore - it's directed at the Remain campaign).

Sbob and Jamba. I've waded back to page 109 (I must be mad) and found [url= http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/06/07/euroskepticism-beyond-brexit/ ]the poll thing you might be refering to[/url]. The French being unhappy with the EU is very different to wanting a Frexit. The unhappy often want reform of the institution from within (me included) but not a Frexit. So I'm still looking for a proper Frexit poll that puts "out" above 45% with "don't knows" removed, most poll being lower.

The French being unhappy with the EU is very different to wanting a Frexit.

Does anyone else get the sinking feeling that this whole thing is going to get a lot messier and nastier between now and voting day? 🙁

(By which I mean the campaigning as a whole, rather than STW specifically, although I'm certainly not ruling out verbal t'interweb fisticuffs on these hallowed grounds)

Why? Are we voting to renounce our obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights and remove the Human Right Act 1998 from the statute books too?

I'm not talking about the grandiose stuff, such as freedom of speech etc, I'm talking about things like worker's rights e.g. limits to working hours, maternity and paternity leave, paid holiday etc.: Small things the government can slowly chip away at by themselves.

Yes - it will get unpleasant. You can already see it. Friends of ours have fallen out, Brexit is a taboo subject at dinner (apart from to remark on 1) and I have to avoid topic with Wail/Torygraph reading outlaws!!

F OX - do you think over the next weak that the hashtag might change to #voteleaveitsnothingtodowithcontrol(honestly)?

Edukator are you new here!?! Its a well proven tactic as seen with yS. It doesn't have to be true (indeed better if its not), its doesn't need evidence to back it up (hence no links), it just needs to sound vaguely plausible with a clear scapegoat to blame (the English or the Europeans [b]especially the unwashed versions[/b])

As none of the leavers have replied yet.
Who are the brexiters going to blame next when brexit doesn't turn into the promised land?

How he expects to keep his job if 'vote leave' win is absolutely comical. He has painted such a gloomy picture regarding the 'pending' economic storm post brexit that he has lost all credibility as chancellor.

Whatever way the vote goes the tories are going to have open Civil war

Have you read the leave views?

I've read a lot thanks and flipped many times between Remain and Leave.

And my view is that the Remain campaign will lose due to them (in the main media that the average man in the street reads and views) concentrating on negatives of leaving, not positives of remaining.

I'm just sad it's turned into a crock-of-sh1te campaign from both sides. I'm probably naive to have expected more than the usual general election type of campaigns. BS, lies and spin from all of the leaders.