[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

I wonder how many others have felt the same way?

Me. Sadly the xenophobia is reflected on many out voters on here.

a fraction back

£350m out & £200m in leaving us with £150m at the bottom line.

Just for clarification..

As for being told how to spend it?

I think the farmers & folks of Wales & Scotland (which is where most of the EU grant is spent in the UK) are very glad that it is the EU telling Westminster where to spend the money.

Do you trust Westminster (in any guise I'm sorry to say) to look after the most vulnerable?

I for one am sometimes happy that it isn't the Gov holding sway on everything. As has often been pointed out on this thread, elsewhere too, it is the EU who've on occasion kept the worst designs of the Gov in check.
(As I recall anyway - happy to be corrected)

Also untrue - I am pro Turkey joining the EU under normal accession conditions

Sorry, you've been editing.
There are no normal accession conditions; they get changed for different members.
I'm against Turkey joining because I am against the idea of an expansionist superstate.
I know you think it won't happen, but the leaders of the EU want it, and our reforms that you are so keen to mention are not even legally binding according to the President of the EU parliament.

I think you're being naive, you probably think I'm being paranoid.

I'd much rather be wrong. 😉

But the lack of truth & the xenophobia that's come out of the Brexit camp have pushed me away from them.

I wonder how many others have felt the same way?

100%

sbob - it would be nice if you didnt make things up about what I say/said. Not sure if the superstate is relating to Turkey or to the current members. I will take the latter - I have been very clear that for the Euro to remain/succeed you have to have full monetary and fiscal union which will require greater political union -your superstate, I assume - whether this happens or not depends on those involved. We, very sensibly, are not. So once again, this is not relevant to the discussion - at least not directly. So realism not niavity rule. As for Turkey, I would welcome their accession in time.

there is a trend developing here....

Yes, you're still ignoring the pertinent part of the discussion...

I said before, I'd love to see a return to the EEC.
Free trade.
Free movement.
No xenophobia! 🙂
No politics!!! 😀

And none of this back door socialism.

There is a happy medium in politics that doesn't piss anyone off. Go too far right and the extreme left rise up.
Go too far left and the extreme right gain favour.
The emergence in popularity of either extreme should be a warning that we haven't got the balance quite right. 💡

Well if you stopped changing your mind - "thats exactly what we spend"....."pf course we don't spent it" = and deal with accurate figures, it might be easier to work out what the pertinent point is!!

Yes, you're still ignoring the pertinent part of the discussion...

& you're still using hyperbole...

a fraction back

I digress, I apologise.

expansionist superstate

This is a legitimate concern.

What do you believe in?

A dystopian future or a utopian future?

I imagine we all wish for a utopian future but what do we see as more likely?

What do we see as being the best way to achieve that utopian future?

Together or apart?

That's the crux of the matter.

Arguments over the economy, immigration, security etc are really just grist to the mill on our journey to achieving that aim.

That we give a lot of money out, and then receive a bit of it back to spend on how we are told, and then get fined for not quite spending it correctly.

I never should have used numbers, it just confused peeps.

Agree with returning to founding principles too but sorry....

That we give a lot of money out, and then receive a bit of it back to spend on how we are told, and then get fined for not quite spending it correctly.

....is simply not true, figures or no figures

I never should have used numbers, it just confused peeps.

Nah, you should have just started with the truth.

You'd have fared much better.

I'll admit you raised a valid point but you diluted it with inaccuracies ergo weakening your point which makes me suspect your motives.

Makes you wonder what lies Brexit are going to try & sell us next..

Arguments over the economy, immigration, security etc are really just grist to the mill on our journey to achieving that aim.

Then we really are on the same page. 🙂

We're just not agreeing on the best way about it.

I dream of us all being inhabitants of Earth, with no greater distinction.
The only difference is that I don't think a lot of us on this planet are ready for it yet.
8)

Back door socialism? 😆

is simply not true

Feel free to expand.

Nah, you should have just started with the truth.

You'd have fared much better.

I honestly thought the £350,000,000 was the actual gross amount.
I've heard plenty of people on here pulling the figure apart for being gross rather than net, but not disputing that actual figure.

So I blame STW.
Bunch of ********* anyway.

Lifer - Member

Back door socialism?

The EU is a socialist project, do you really disagree? 😕

Based on how if we leave the EU they'll be a regional (if not global) recession, can I assume that all those voting out have got stacks of gold stored away, living in fully-owed houses and already retired?

If not, WTF are you going to do when it goes pop?

Browse Bike.De remembering a time when it was cheap to import bike bits.

Then we really are on the same page.

&

So I blame STW.
Bunch of ********* anyway.

😆

Bloody STW!

Based on how if we leave the EU they'll be a regional (if not global) recession, can I assume that all those voting out have got stacks of gold stored away, living in fully-owed houses and already retired?
If not, WTF are you going to do when it goes pop?

That's about the size of it...!

b r - Member

Based on how if we leave the EU they'll be a regional (if not global) recession, can I assume that all those voting out have got stacks of gold stored away, living in fully-owed houses and already retired?

If not, WTF are you going to do when it goes pop?

So one minute STW is happy to share the wealth, the next it's not?
The hive needs to sort its act out. 😉

Some please talk about EU & TTIP please ... 😛

Summary from [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html ]The Independent[/url]

After you and maybe use a more recent article.

Been a busy evening since I last checked. :). Will catch up later.

Erdogan's obviously not got the Downing Street memo as he just described Turkey as a [b]candidate country[/b] whilst telling Merkel et all that unless Turkey is given visa free travel there will be no migrant deal, he also pointed out that Latin American countries did not have to agree to conditions to get visa free so he sees no reason for Turkey to have to do so. BBC and Guardian pieces.

Arguing about whether its £150m, £250m or £350m a week is pointless as the contribution changes all the time based on how well the UK economy does outright and in comparison to the other EU countries. If you look at the history the trend has been very clear, its going up and up. It is reasonable tomspeak aboit the pre-rebate amount as the rebate is not guaranteed, the EU are constantly threatening to remove it whenever we make their life difficult. Plus of course we have the ridiculous use of the "black economy" to calcukate contributions which is why we where billed an extra £2bn a couple of years ago. New joiners get special additional payment before and after they join too, all extra.

I honestly thought the £350,000,000 was the actual gross amount.

At least the BoE was truthful today that interest rates may go down after Brexit not just the scare story of up.

Drac - Moderator
After you and maybe use a more recent article.

Arguing about whether its £150m, £250m or £350m a week is pointless

I cant help but notice how irrelevant the figure is now you've been corrected on it...

At least the BoE was truthful today that interest rates may go down after Brexit not just the scare story of up.

Down from 0.5% isn't anything to boast about....
#context....

What differences would there be between the 'British Bill of Rights' and the ECHR?

@mrlebowski - its a very complicated subject with numerous facets and a huge amount of guesstimation none more so than on the Remain side. As I must have said a dozen times just assume every post of mine starts with IMO

I cant help but notice how irrelevant the figure is now you've been corrected on it...

Does a more recent article change the condition of TTIP?

Off you pop and have a little look. Then maybe start the discussion with your views on TTIP before asking others.

Why don't you read back in the thread a few weeks and see what Imsaid about the budget figure

I'm referring to what you said, I don't know what Imsaid as I haven't read it..

assume every post of mine starts with IMO

You know what they say about assumption? She's the mother of all Fek ups. I assume nothing & you have an annoying habit of stating your opinions as if they were fact.

I can see through what you are doing, others may not be able to. YOU did post the figure of £350m as if it were fact & now you draw doubt upon any number that's used whilst referring to the EU budget.

Is this to deliberately obscure the fact that you got the figure wrong? One can't help but wonder......

Drac - Moderator
After you and maybe use a more recent article.

So this is the hidden agenda ... [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/topic/ttip ]TTIP here.[/url]

There is a feeling that Vote Leave has failed to communicate its message about the economic risks of remaining in the EU: the possibility of a Eurozone collapse.
One Brexit minister told Newsnight: "There are jitters in the campaign. I am getting a lot of messages about why we are failing to get our message across.
"Vote Leave does not want to major on immigration, but the problem is that on the economy we are playing defence.
"We are continually having to respond to this tsunami from the Treasury, the Bank of England and the IMF. The only issue we can go on the offensive is on immigration."

So be prepared a change in tactics, perhaps to rephrase they just can't handle the truth man!

What differences would there be between the 'British Bill of Rights' and the ECHR?

@Lifer Not a lot actually, just a few tweeks so we can deport people and ensure the final arbiter are the British Courts.

Meanwhile, the EU and IMF screw up YET AGAIN

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/24/eurozone-officials-hope-to-give-greece-next-tranche-of-bailout#comment-74936423

[url= http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/juncker-vows-to-use-new-powers-to-block-the-far-right-nq5r5tnqq ]Juncker vows to use new powers to block the far-right[/url]

Jean-Claude Juncker, president of the European Commission, made clear at the weekend that Norbert Hofer would have been frozen out of EU decision-making if he had been elected president of Austria. “There is no debate or dialogue with the far-right,” Mr Juncker said.

Aye - that's democracy EU-style!!

@retro well thats quite a quote ! Marine Le Penn is going to have a field day with that

@mike there has been plenty of discussion and statements from ministers, the argument isn't about the contents its primarily about the process. It was a manifesto commitment that we voted on in GE2015 so it was relatively well thought out.

@DrJ yes I saw that. the IMF has caved in totally to the German and French political demands that the Greek debt crises be kicked into the long grass. At least the Guardian put the real reason into the piece, French and German elections in 2017. I mean you wouldn't want to admit to your citizens that the €100's of billions given to Greece was a gift, that they where never paying it back. No, that would be bad for your re-election chances. It wouldn't be a goodthing to happen either just before an EU Referendum in your second largest donor member country.

Arguing about whether its £150m, £250m or £350m a week is pointless as the contribution changes all the time based on how well the UK economy does outright and in comparison to the other EU countries. If you look at the history the trend has been very clear, its going up and up.

Yes, to a "point" and yet

1 Brexiteers make this a central point in their (now lost) economic argument as demonstrated by the fact that the wrong figure is emblazoned across the battlebus with the verb "spend" - another lie - and this is part of the prepared text for all Out campaigners. You hear this nearly every day despite it being well documented as a lie. You have used it several times on here.

2 The argument that the figures don't matter is also odd or covenient (?) given the percentage differences involved between the real figure and the Brexiteers lie used but I suppose this assists the other lie that we spend vast amounts of money on EU membership when it's obvious we don't - <1% of GDP and way down the scale when measured on a per capita basis.

3, The cost is based, as you note, largely on our relative economic performance.. If we are paying more that is because we are doing better. That is a good thing. I would be more concerned if the trend was going the other way round.

It is reasonable tomspeak aboit the pre-rebate amount as the rebate is not guaranteed, the EU are constantly threatening to remove it whenever we make their life difficult.

It is unreasonable to use the wrong figure and to claim that this is what we spend. That is a blatant lie with only one objective. Why are the EU threatening to remove it? Because Thatcher who Bojo supposedly admires did a bloody good job at negotiating it and it DOES make a difference which is why OUTers should not ignore it.

On the lost economic argument and the misuse of £350m we could spend elsewhere, here's what the IFS conclude today

Rather than saving £350m a week, or £18bn a year, from Brexit, the IFS research suggests a vote to leave would cost £20bn to £40bn a year and require additional austerity, lasting into the next decade, if the government still wanted to eliminate the deficit.

Bring on IMMIGRATION - the last desperate play of a desperate campaign

Youse are arguing like politicians now... it's incredibly tedious.

18bn is the amount before the rebate
13bn is the amount after the rebate
8.5bn is what gets spent in Europe out of the UK contribution.
4.5bn is what gets spent in the UK out of the UK contribution

This isn't difficult.

No one is arguing Joe, the OUTers simply persist in using the incorrect data. As you say, it isn't difficult - well for one camp it obviously is.

So Dr - what did you want? The IMF and EU to push Greece into default or give it less breathing space. Ok, it's a complete buggers muddle and Greece cannot resolve this without a hit to creditors etc, but it does seem odd to be so negative about giving them some (temporary) relief

Jambas was the second largest donor country a reference to the UK? If so, please can you explain the nature and size or the UK's exposure to Greece?

[i]David Cameron's former director of strategy has called for a vote to leave the EU, saying membership "makes Britain literally ungovernable".
Steve Hilton, who was one of the PM's closest aides, attacked Brussels' "statism, corporatism and bureaucracy".
In an article for the Daily Mail, he said the PM's "relatively modest" reform demands had received "arrogant and dismissive treatment".[/i]

That'd be THIS Steve Hilton:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Hilton

Yet another person with an opinion but no 'skin' in the game.

Immigrant parents, now lives in California and married to a VP from Uber (and anti-smartphone).

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/11/steve-hilton-silicon-valley-no-cellphone-technology-apps-uber

So Dr - what did you want? The IMF and EU to push Greece into default or give it less breathing space. Ok, it's a complete buggers muddle and Greece cannot resolve this without a hit to creditors etc, but it does seem odd to be so negative about giving them some (temporary) relief

I'm not sure that there is any real relief - they stick to the idea that Greece can make the 3.5% primary surplus target that nobody actually believes, and say that debt relief will be on an ad hoc basis at some future time. What they need is debt relief NOW so they can get on with restarting the economy. More or less what Varoufakis said over a year ago.

I disagree 😉 this is all part of the slow road to debt relief for Greece. Jambas is correct, we a about to see a transfer from international creditors to Greece (hence the importance of knowing the truth about the Uk exposure) over time. This is how it should be, since the Eurozone and the IMF are part of the problem (along with bankers, the Greek government and the Greek people) and creditos ultimately have to take a hit. The fact that this is hidden relief is not as it should be - so I have some sympathy with Jambas in that point - as always the can has been given a kick down the road because being open about the issue (Greece needs to default/have relief) is politically unpalatable. This is a travesty that extents well beyond the Eurozone however.

dare is say it, but there is a good FT article today on the slow path to debt relief !

Whatever, but this is the soundtrack to the summer:

69 pages and no one has stated the obvious

If you are voting on the same side as Ian Duncan Smith and Chewkw then you are almost certainly wrong.

teamhurtmore - Member
No one is arguing Joe, the OUTers simply persist in using the incorrect data. As you say, it isn't difficult - well for one camp it obviously is