[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

Here is a view that sort of expresses my own opinion

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/krugman/2016/06/12/notes-on-brexit/

[i]oldnpastit - Member
Hmmm, share holders == pension funds.[/i]

Exactly. Beautiful, isn't? The Elite have the rest of us bagged and tagged!

Oh, but hold on, EU will save us!
Riiiiiiight

LMFAO at business leaders urging us to remain. Conflict of interest??

I'm getting pretty exasperated at this sort of fatuous comment. Yes, business leaders get a poor wrap - "fat cats" etc, but business is about forecasting future performance and then meeting plan.

That might be very good for fat cat bonuses - [b]BUT ITS FWKING ESSENTIAL[/b] for all the employees delivering that plan....

Plans slip - markets change etc, but it's uncertainty that screws it up... And if it's looking like the plan's going to drift then it's hold on recruitment first, and cut back headcount second...

I don't give a flying fig if a few Chief Execs "retire early" - what we're talking about is the livelihoods of very many ordinary employees.

All the shite ^^ about UK being big enough, smart enough etc to adapt to changed markets may well be right, but at what cost???

Sad to sound ageist, but the demographics here have all the hallmarks of a last selfish indulgence of the baby boomer generation, aided and abetted by the wilful right wing idealagogues and the misinformed.

free movement has effectively undercut UK workers.

Its amazing to see rampant right wingers suddenly give a shit about the poor including those who opposed the social charter and the minimum wage

The Elite have the rest of us bagged and tagged!

Its a choice between one right wing elite or another right wing elite that is the same but a bit more racist and lies about GAS about poor working class folk.
The debate standard and the lazy tropes are risible

LMFAO at business leaders urging us to remain. Conflict of interest??

You know a lot of us normal people work for those same companies, don't you?

Thinking that Bozza, IDS and Gove are suddenly going to become fearless defenders of workers rights suggests a level of gullibility that reaches previously unchartered levels.

Turkeys voting for Christmas!

Have A guess what this 'red tape' they so desperately want to eradicate consists of.

If we vote leave, there are going to be some desperately disappointed ****-wits, scratching their heads as the penny finally, belatedly drops, and they gleefully take a torch to workers rights.

Thinking that Bozza, IDS and Gove are suddenly going to become fearless defenders of workers rights suggests a level of gullibility that reaches previously unchartered levels.

Well Gove said on Sky that it was just the EU that was stopping them rescuing Welsh steel, so post Brexit there will be scope for all kinds of intervention. Or maybe that was another lie ?

I really wonder at how disappointed folk will be waiting by the letter box for their £350m they were promised and seeing the postie walk past without delivering it.

I'm sure that if you live in a £30 million property in Chelsea, and fancy paying even less tax than the minuscule amount you pay already, it'll be delivered in spades!

DrJ that NY Times article is classic Remain "the EU is terrible but we are afraid of leaving". It mentions the disaster of the euro and finishes with;

[i]So I would vote Remain, but with some feelings of [b]despair[/b], because what I’d be voting to remain with is a system that [b]desperately needs reform but shows little sign of reforming[/b].[/i]

If its broken we should leave, its only going to change further away from what we want.

Also if free trade deals are so great why does the US have only one of any substance and both Clinton and Trump want to rip NAFTA up and start again.

Cameron isn't going to be PM by the end of the year even if Remain win.

[i] Junkyard
Yes that minimum wage has plummeted of late[/i]
You work in social services or some other similar local Gov dept. So, frankly, you don't see or know shit about what's happening in the real world.

Go ask the working classes of Tee Side, what the EU has done for them. Ask them why they will vote leave.
Nope, you'll ignore them, as Westminster has. At a push, you'll behave like an outer party member at hate and shout down anyone who opposes your ideal.
There's a good boy, good night 😉

[i] molgrips - Member
You know a lot of us normal people work for those same companies, don't you?[/i]
Lol, grips, you made it very clear, on this forum. That you aint never normal 😉
Obviously, You haven't been reading the thread. But then it is a ridiculous 115 pages!

Please post back when you have been replaced by a European worker who has agreed to do your job for 50 percent of your salary. That's what is happening right now to people in the UK and unless you've experienced it. You're just piss'in in the wind.

But I'm not surprized. If it aint ruining your party, you carry on while your neighbours suffer.

What you fail to see, is what is happening to others in the UK. It's like you seem to think everything the EU is doing is good and nobody is being detrimentally effected. Well, there are lots of folk who are losing out on our current deal with the EU and this referendum is their chance to be heard over the grad middle class, liberals who know nothing about being working class, UK 2016!

Ooo. BTW, I wonder if remain realise. A remain vote will likely see an even greater rise of the far right in the UK.

I did kinda mention this in an earlier post, but upon reflection perhaps I was being too cryptic for the given audience....

Nigel F for PM? I bet theres lots of folk who don't want to vote UKIP. But if forced to remain, may just do so.....

Well Gove said on Sky that it was just the EU that was stopping them rescuing Welsh steel, so post Brexit there will be scope for all kinds of intervention. Or maybe that was another lie ?

Didn't stop the Scottish government sorting out a rescue of the Clydebridge and Dalzell plants - so yes, I'm going with Gove lying.

You work in social services or some other similar local Gov dept. So, frankly, you don't see or know shit about what's happening in the real world.

Nigel F for PM?

jambalaya - Member

Cameron isn't going to be PM by the end of the year even if Remain win.

If the Tory party declares war on itself like it's been pretty keen to do so already....

[img] [/img]

😆

Those voting in. You do realise Cameron will take this as a green light to push through big changes, cuts and more privatisation.

So is voting in because you're scared of the current government

DrJ that NY Times article is classic Remain "the EU is terrible but we are afraid of leaving".

No, it's a classic case of weighing up pros and cons and making an informed choice, not shouting slogans and wishful thinking.

Solo - please, please think about this:

Please post back when you have been replaced by a European worker who has agreed to do your job for 50 percent of your salary. That's what is happening right now to people in the UK and unless you've experienced it. You're just piss'in in the wind.

How do you think British wages / employment prospects will change if we vote leave?

To me, your comment screams stay in...! I don't understand how we could leave AND have an economy that's MORE COMPETITIVE

"Vote Leave: take back control" just sounds like being about pushing UK wages DOWN. How else do BJ, Gove, Farage etc envisage that the UK economy will become such a competitive, free trading success story?

I'm not saying it can't be done - I just struggle to see how we become more competitive globally and improve wages / employment prospects for the British working class

Go ask the working classes of Tee Side, what the EU has done for them. Ask them why they will vote leave.

What the EU would have done for Teesside is allow the UK to protect steel, which the Tories voted against. Why Teessiders may vote leave is another matter - mainly ignorance I suspect.

There will be a short term economic downturn in the wake of a vote leave success right?

We will have to broker new deals in the two year period that it takes us to leave, and during that time we will still be under the rule of the tories who will be fractured and arguing over power..
They are going to find it very hard to agree over the colour of shit during that time due to their power struggle, so realistically that two year period may extend indefinitely..
A vote for leave is a vote for an indefinite recession, not a global recession where we all need to help each other, but a very focussed UK recession

The world economy during that period is not going to want to make any decisions until they see how the cards fall, and if and when that time comes we are going to be desperate. Any UK trade agreements brokered will be negotiated from a very weak position..

A vote for leave is a vote for serious social upheaval as we wallow in financial insecurity.. Things will be worse for us while the rest of the world gets on with it

call me a scaremonger if you like, but please provide some sort of counter argument

See jambalaya, our most staunch leave campaigner is a city banker..

When the shit hits the fan he will simply take his skill set to another country that will pay for his services.. France probably seeing as he lives there half the time.. He's probably got very personal financial reasons for wanting to see the country go under, with some sort of hedge fund or something that will make him his fortune in the event of an economic crash... it's little wonder he's campaigning so hard.. this economic failure is the key to his fortune

Massive swing to the brexit campaign!! Wooohooo, let's hope that continues to grow and maintains it on polling day.

This article from the Telegraph sums it up nicely.

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/12/brexit-vote-is-about-the-supremacy-of-parliament-and-nothing-els/ ]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/06/12/brexit-vote-is-about-the-supremacy-of-parliament-and-nothing-els/[/url]

...and almost gets it right

Let there be no illusion about the trauma of Brexit. Anybody who claims that Britain can lightly disengage after 43 years enmeshed in EU affairs is a charlatan, or a dreamer, or has little contact with the realities of global finance and geopolitics.

Starts well and then sadly drops off a cliff...

Stripped of distractions, it comes down to an elemental choice: whether to restore the full self-government of this nation, or to continue living under a higher supranational regime, ruled by a European Council that we do not elect in any meaningful sense, and that the British people can never remove, even when it persists in error.

This mythical nirvana of self-government combined with BS about who rules us.

Typical stuff from Ambrose - its normally quite tortured. So nothing new.

Yunki - you last post makes unsubstantiated and unpleasant accusations re Jambalaya. You have missed the chance to edit, but you could re-think and apologise. Poor show there.

Recent facebook posting I spotted :

Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't think it matters.

Great post Turnerguy

Only it's our elected MPs that have been the cause of all the problems that you've listed above

Yunki - you last post makes unsubstantiated and unpleasant accusations re Jambalaya. You have missed the chance to edit, but you could re-think and apologise. Poor show there.

mmmmmmm yah jolly poor... yah yah.. not cricket yah 🙄

Sorry jambalaya - I was just trying to make the point that the only person that seems to be arguing with any semblance of intelligence, must have vested interests to be arguing for such a daft idea.. I'm even willing to believe that the islamophobia is just a tactic 🙂
I singled you out because everyone else arguing brexit seems to be coming at it from a place of ignorance and jingoism

Yep - a good example of lets blame EU for anything we can think of.

Love the horror that companies should be owned by nasty foreigners and that idea that Minis were an example of our success as a stand alone economy (including getting gov support that the National Audit Office questioned was a good use of resources.)

Wonderful example of scapegoating and xenophobia.

[b]Good show there yunki.[/b]

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.

Did they mix that up with BHS I wonder?

@ turner guy

How exactly will leaving help that - assuming they are all true and ONLY for the simplistic reason stated that seems most unlikely.

All that happens is they have those options post brexit and here they don't have access to the EU market as well
It will only speed things up not stop them.

All that happens is they have those options post brexit and here they don't have access to the EU market as well
It will only speed things up not stop them.

This.

Re the earlier comments about "real world" and Tees side. I work with real clients in the manufacturing sector. Over the last 10-15yrs many have closed UK plants and moved them to E Europe or the Far East. One reason is employment costs (but also skewed UK land values, where a UK site can generate more cash being sold for housing than making "stuff"). My working contacts extend from boardroom to security gate and provide a real insight into how these companies operate and how their staff think at lots of levels in the career structure...

If you Brexiteers want a more competitive UK, outside of the EU, then YOU HAVE TO EXPECT that UK wages are likely to fall (or less people will be employed).

Is that what you are voting leave for?

You complain about the working class competing with cheap Eastern European labour at the moment. That will change post EU - the British working class won't need to compete with Eastern European or Chinese labour as the employers will have moved there!

I work with real clients in the manufacturing sector. Over the last 10-15yrs many have closed UK plants and moved them to E Europe or the Far East.

It's not just here - French firm I worked for shipped a lot of assembly jobs to Romania, lots of other French jobs gone there and Morocco.

@Turner that sort of thing is exactly why both Trump and Clinton are proposing revising or even cancelling the North American Free Trade Agreement.

@yunki you are searching for a Pantomime villan don't look at me for that or your conspiracy theories. Remain is the establishment campaign and the one funded by the City and Financial Services industry with their short term vested interests. I am voting Leave as I believe it is in the best interests of our country for the next 5, 10, 20, 50 years. I agree with the arguments made in the LeftLeave link ernie posted. I believe the whole of the UK will be better off away from an economically stagnant and politically failing EU and as far away as possible from the tsunami that a Greek default will bring with all the contagion to Italy, Spain, Portugal and Ireland. IMO the EU have proven incompetent in managing its and our affairs. Its time to move on.

Remain is the establishment campaign

@rkk01 we need to do what Obama has done and refocus towards Asia. Europe is stagnant and the EU incompetant. We need to look East.

When the referendum was announced I really thought Remain would win (people reluctant to change), now I think it's Leave's victory to lose.

nah, it's neck and neck as far as I can see. The undecideds are never the bravest lot. They'll vote to stay. The very nature of their undecidedness makes them risk averse.

Final result will be something like 60-40 for in, imo.

@ turner guy

How exactly will leaving help that - assuming they are all true and ONLY for the simplistic reason stated that seems most unlikely.

It's not my post - I just thought I'd put it up to provide some more points to argue against, or for.

jambalaya - Member
@rkk01 we need to do what Obama has done and refocus towards Asia. Europe is stagnant and the EU incompetant. We need to look East.

[I]It's not my post - I just thought I'd put it up to provide some more points to argue against, or for. [/I]

But those kinda of comments could easily have applied to businesses that moved over the years within the UK to take advantage of various grants etc.

Remain is the establishment campaign and the one funded by the City and Financial Services industry with their short term vested interests

Look at the leaders of both sides - privileged millionaire bullingdon boys Its the establishment v the establishment with the funding being the same.
anyone who says differently is not worth listening to as they have tried to change reality to match their own bias

@rkk01 we need to do what Obama has done and refocus towards Asia. Europe is stagnant and the EU incompetant. We need to look East.

In many ways yes, and this has been in progress for 20+ yrs (Australia and the US have been Pacific focused since the end of WW2)

A focus to the eastern economies may be all very good for investors and the financial markets, but I'm still not sure how that tallies with UK working class wage and employment growth. Our post-industrial woes require mass employment prospects here in the UK

There are 10 kinds of people in the world those who understand binary and those that don't.

Boom, tish.... 😀

They are not mutually exclusive concepts. The UK can work with the EU and trade with Asia

As it has shown very successfully to date. Why anyone wants to jeopardise this beggars belief.

mikewsmith - Member

There are 10 kinds of people in the world those who understand binary and those that don't.

🙂 i'm stealing that!

i'm stealing that!

it's an old joke - there's even t-shirts you can get with it on.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/People-Understand-T-Shirt-Glare-UK/dp/B00D43HGAM

it's an old joke

pre-historic more like!

Turnerguy - someone doesn't understand economics I think.

In fact now I've just read all the way down it:

[I]Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.[/I]

Boots and Alliance Unichem agreed a friendly merger in 2006, both FTSE100. In 2007 the group was bought by a private equity group (KKR) for £12bn including £9bn in investment bank loans.

A group HO was established in Switzerland in 2008, basically a lawyers office, and yes planned to save £80-100m pa - why would you not do this?

Then Walgreens brought the business, in 2 tranches.

I worked for AU and then AB during the expansion period.

Bigot, xenophobe, racist - keep them coming they are all massive own goals

[img] [/img]

Blimey, you boys scared of old Gordi!!!

It's not as though you might be exposed for telling lies about having no control over immigration

Arguing with my first cousin once removed on fb. He admits there's a big risk to the economy and jobs. I asked him what we gain in return, he said "a chance to make history".

Er ok, I'd rather have a job though as would most people I expect.

I know, thm, youd think the chancellor that stopped teh tories from dragging us into the Euro, wouldve been a hero to the outies!

Awesome there Jamby, love the policy there Control (Yeah), Bigots (awesome) Gordon Brown (you're getting me excited here)

@mike take it up with Vote Leave, seems pretty obvious use of the image and his remark and clearly targetted at left wing voters who had their last prime minister call a late middle aged woman a bigot.

@kimbers don't think a Tory government ever considered the €, twas Labour who gave it serious consideration with many on that side side saying it would be a disaster if we stayed out.

@mike take it up with Vote Leave, seems pretty obvious use of the image and his remark and clearly targetted at left wing voters who had their last prime minister call a late middle aged woman a bigot.

Perhaps she was

Duffy interjected: "You can't say anything about the immigrants because you're saying that you're … but all these eastern European what are coming in, where are they flocking from?"

It's a real lame ad trying to say it's OK you can be racist

nah, its targetd at bigots who dont like being called bigots

now about project fear.....
[img] [/img]

that aaron banks really is a horrible person, but he knows his target demographic

Anyway, imo that poster is clearly targetted at Labour voters

...and to remind them that, if in doubt, blame Johnny Foreigner.

The root of all our problems - who mentioned xenophobia?

What possible link is there between a shooting in the US and the EU? Was the shooter actually a Polish plumber? Even by Leave standards this seems bizarre.

FFS Its not an official Leave campaign poster

Yes come on Doc, the officlal VL xenophobia is far more subtle. 😉

jambalaya - Member
FFS Its not an official Leave campaign poster

FFS Its not an official Leave campaign poster

Aaah I see, so we can expect Farage and Gove to publicly disown it?

LUckily they left the really bad racist free to do their own thing and appeal to their own demographic

Are you happy to be voting with and campaigning with folk who think like this?

Are you?

Junkyard - lazarus

Are you happy to be voting with and campaigning with folk who think like this?

Are you?

Says the person who is happy to jump both feet first into bed with someone who shuns democracy and is financially as bent as a nine euro note.
😆
Except it isn't funny.

What possible link is there between a shooting in the US and the EU? Was the shooter actually a Polish plumber? Even by Leave standards this seems bizarre.

No it makes perfect sense, The talk of Turks joining the EU, the fact that Turks are muslims, therefore Turks must all be ISIS. That we support the problem that is wahbisim and the house of Saud, gets glossed over.

Des.per.a.tion chaps, pure and simple. Making up stuff to be offended at now. Trust me thats winning you zero votes.

Gordon was out campaigning today, I am starting to believe the Corbyn theories that he's deliberately not campaigning as he fundamentally supports Leave and is more interested in Chilcot. Perhaos he thinks Tory disarray over a Leave will help Labour in 2020, a win-win from his perspective ?

That we support the problem that is wahbisim and the house of Saud, gets glossed over.

We support Turkey through NATO. Very different that Visa free travel and EU candidacy.

I assume you are aware of the widespread belief that Turkey supported IS not least through oil purchases and turning a blind eye to 10's thousands of fighters crossing is border unimpeded ?

Ex-PM Gordon Brown kept banging on about being a leader in EU, I mean how delusional can you be to think BritLand can lead again?

The EU is going to gangbang BritLand easy ...

Look at your current leaders none got the balls require to lead coz all look after their self interest.

jambalaya - Member

We support Turkey through NATO

And the European Investment Bank.

I've been reading through lots of parliamentary questions and answers on the European Parliament website.
On one hand it's a fantastic open resource to any EU citizen with internet access, on the other hand it has really shown me how much power the Commission have and how they only have their own interests at heart.
It is of no wonder that the EU is expansionist; with every additional member, a country's voice becomes even quieter.

Go and have a read, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

Who's the desperate party?

The one now campaigning with the lowest common denominations - xenophobia. Scared of Gordon Brown even!! The ones who define the debate in terms of them and us. Hide away in isolation rather than cooperate with close partners. Sad, sad spectacle.

No need to panic over rogue polls - CMD did that with Scotland. There are enough sensible people who can see through the narcissism and xenophobia.

Bring the vote on today, Lets get it over with before the xenophobia becomes hatred and even more intense. It's sad enough to watch already.

teamhurtmore - Member
The one now campaigning with the lowest common denominations - xenophobia. Scared of Gordon Brown even!!

Thatcher was your last leader ... the rest just wannabes. 😆

Des.per.a.tion chaps, pure and simple. Making up stuff to be offended at now. Trust me thats winning you zero votes.

Who are you addressing? Are you under the impression that someone here is campaigning for votes? Del.u.sion.al

Des.per.a.tion chaps, pure and simple. Making up stuff to be offended at now. Trust me thats winning you zero votes.

You really do live on a different planet to the rest of us...!

Thatcher was your last leader ... the rest just wannabes.

[img] [/img]

Looking at that list on the last page, surely the brexit mob will be happy about all the jobs being created in Eastern Europe via grants as this means there's less need for those chaps to come here for jobs? There you go, the euro lot actively working to reduce immigration to the uk!

European grants are for regeneration - so yes, they'll be aimed at creating opportunity in areas that are economically deprived. See also trail centre funding like Bike Park Wales and the 7 Stanes.

Europe will try and stimulate investment in deprived areas whether we're in or out. Leaving the EU isn't going to stop companies leaving, that's globalisation (can't say I approve of it but it's a reality). But staying means that we also get a share of that funding.

And correct, if you create local employment it's less likely that people will travel in search of work.

Making up stuff to be offended at now.

If you are not offended by that then the irrational hate is strong in you.

Asked if he condemned the comments, he replied: “I think it is completely pointless to try and make something out of what is a tragedy in America.

“It has nothing to do with this debate at all, and I abhor anybody who tries to make capital out of that.”

WHat sort of person is more heartless and less touchy feely than him?