[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

wait till you have to deal with a machine. You can scream and cry but the machine will not be deterred and you will just be another resources to be consumed.

You are Kyle Reese and I claim my five pounds.

from a monetary, fiscal and political union (and possibly share a common currency?

perchypanther - Member

wait till you have to deal with a machine. You can scream and cry but the machine will not be deterred and you will just be another resources to be consumed.

You are Kyle Reese and I claim my five pounds.

Nope.

I am ... [b]Karl Emil Maximilian "Max" Weber ... The god of bureaucracy[/b]. 😆

Give me me fiver!
I say ... Give me! 😛

Edit: You lot are hallucinating about the utopia of becoming full member of a larger entity, economy prosperity, advancement, scientific mind, rationality, etc ... [b]you CANNOT escape Weber[/b].

Try as you will there is no escaping and your lack of understanding the very basic means you are heading for full hallucinating utopia. Just don't cry when you reach there ... 😯

[b][u]I challenge anyone and everyone, the brighter you are the better, in this world to dispute Max Weber. [/u][/b]

molgrips - Member

Hmm - but what's the alternative?

Well, [i]I'm[/i] going to invade Poland.

looks like we'll be paying [url= http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/eu-referendum-bank-england-builds-98bn-brexit-war-chest-defend-pound-1542482 ]20% more for our groupsets in the event of a brexit[/url] though the rate of decline vs the euro in the last [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business/market_data/currency/11/13/three_month.stm ]3 months you'd thought the markets think it's a forgone conclusion[/url]. Though the Banks record on defending the pound is not the greatest just ask ol' Norm.

Unintentionally, Norm played a blinder. Great boost to UK economy not having an uncompetitive exchange rate to defend. Not that it felt like that at the time!!

I'm as yet undecided as I can see a valid argument for both staying and leaving.

However, I honestly don't thing the UK will ever leave the EU whatever the result. I cant help but think that a "Leave" vote will simply result in being offered a few more "concessions", followed by another vote until we vote to stay in. Basically the same as with the Lisbon Treaty if I remember correctly.

Are there actual instances where EU decision making has been different to what the UK could or should have done on its own?

I honestly don't thing the UK will ever leave the EU whatever the result

I honestly dont see why anyone thinks this will happen.

I will probably vote to stay but I will be campaigning to make sure we leave if that is what the people will - you cannot ignore democracy because you dislike a legitimate outcome.

DO you really think the tories will be elected back in if they ignore this?Not a chance so it will not happen. TBH the PM would stand no chance in parliament if he tried this never mind an election.

However, I honestly don't thing the UK will ever leave the EU whatever the result.

This.

I heard this view on This Week a while back and the more I think about it the more obvious it seems.

Leaving requires agreement between us and Europe on a myriad of topics to enable us to function normally on day 1 after we leave - its not going to happen overnight.

I see no reason why we'd not go into a perpetual state of arranging the 'leaving' and then at some point another referendum gets a different result.

What possible reason would either side to offer compromises to help the UK leave speedily?

I honestly don't thing the UK will ever leave the EU whatever the result

Scenario. Paris type of attack one week before the election (destabilizing Europe is high on IS wish list) UK voters vote out this presages the break up of the EU with Greece also forced out this year over the Immigration issue .

hmm sounds possible.

Norm played a blinder

george played the blinder, norm was a gormless bystander.

I don't bother wasting time thinking about it - I can't influence the outcome anyway, I'll just have to suffer the consequences.

Interesting that the "debate" in the media is pretty much glossing over the effect a brexit will have on our Agricultural Industry, (and given how much time most of us spend in the countryside, on here as well) Farm subsidies from the EU was £3.7 billion last year that we'd have to find ourselves, and I can't think for a minute that a country like France (for instance) wouldn't leap at the chance to secure less favourable terms of trade for our farmed goods. Tiny part of our GDP for sure, but would be an enormous change to thousands of families, and the country side we all enjoy.

I don't think for a minute that it will change the argument much, but I could certainly see a future of more expensive food prices if we leave.

What possible reason would either side to offer compromises to help the UK leave speedily?

Farm subsidies from the EU was £3.7 billion last year that we'd have to find ourselves,

you understand the concept of being a net contributor?

we pay about £18 billion in, and get about £8-9 billion back (including the £3.7 billion we would have to 'find')

Oh. And ps. If it wasn't for Thatcher securing the UK rebate, we would only be getting about half that sum back....

Can anyone answer this?

Are there actual instances where EU decision making has been different to what the UK could or should have done on its own?

Or is it just about the money?

[i]Farm subsidies from the EU was £3.7 billion last year that we'd have to find ourselves,[/i]

Or not.

http://farmsubsidy.openspending.org/GB/2013/

Top earner in 2013, National Trust...

While I'm an 'In', farm subsidies are a whole (global) farce that need sorting out and worthy of their own post - and nothing to do with Europe really.

Thank you one and all, I'm on the fence and appreciate ALL of your input.

As usual Northwind has managed to cut to the chase, I think.

Are there actual instances where EU decision making has been different to what the UK could or should have done on its own?

If the EU is doing exactly what the UK would do without them then there would be no clamour to leave as it would be just like what we would di
I dont even understand why you would make it or what you are fishing for

Yes the EU does things we would not - do you think we would have the open immigration policy we do now without the EU would we have the "generous benefits" to foreigners were we not in the EU?this is what our govt wants to do and they wont change anything when we leave?
It got ignored because the answer is blindingly obvious.

TBH this was such a daft question

Why was it daft?

I'm trying to establish how much of the 'leave' is simply scaremongering or jingoism about sovereignty.

It got ignored because the answer is blindingly obvious.

No need to be so offensive about it - it was a genuine question and relevant. Immigration is a good one - any more?

Anyone change their mind after watching Simon Reeves Greece programme the other day?
Me?
Not really.

Perfectly sensible question mol. There is a heavy dose of nonsense on sovereignty as there is on subjugation. Best to ignore either extreme.

It is amusing though when the founding fathers abuse/adopt EU policies as they see fit - see deficit spending and immigration.

"We support the free movement of people until its inconvenient to do so..." 😉

Some of you do have a very low opinion of British [s]people[/s]management to take charge of their own destiny don't you?

Perfectly sensible question mol

Its reasonable to ask what the differences are its not reasonable to ask if there are any differences.

I will be amazed if you can find anyone [ credible[ who wishes to argue membership means we got exactly what the UK wanted in all areas from the EU.

Its not a good question

In, with some reservations.

I don't have the information or the nous in economics etc. to really make an informed decision - like most people I suspect. But intuitively I reckon the UK is pretty closely coupled with Europe anyway and in that case it's better to be on the inside, than on the outside looking in.
On the other hand, I've got doubts about how sustainable the whole thing if some of the members (e.g. Greece) are much weaker than the rest.

Its reasonable to ask what the differences are its not reasonable to ask if there are any differences.

Ok well I considered the two things to be the same, apologies if it was not clear.

I meant - what are the differences?

who wishes to argue membership means we got exactly what the UK wanted in all areas from the EU

That's not quite the same thing.

Be interested to hear from anyone over in Europe what the general feeling towards the whole in/out thing is over there? Is it even getting much coverage on the news outside of the UK?

My Spanish family are basically "WTF is your man blathering about? There's serious work to be done, let the grownups get on with it". Though apparently all the english ex-pats are dead patriotic and want to leave the EU, which I love.

I don't have the information or the nous in economics etc. to really make an informed decision

You're barking up the wrong tree, all you need is a suspicion/dislike of foreigners and believe that we're better than everyone else and should go back to the days of the empire, Churchill, stiffer upper lip etc...

So figures released today show in 2015 the UK bought £89 billion (not tje 60 I'd seen quoted before) more in goods and services from the jEU than they did from us. How people can even remotely believe the EU would impose trade tariffs and barriers on an independent UK I will never understand.

The EU has numerous boiler-plate free trade agreements it can call on, such agreements already exist with numerous other countries and trading blocks.

@binners Vote Leave is not UKIP

Scotland cannot unilaterally leave the UK, if Alex and thr SNP thoight that was viable they would have gone down tjat route already. With oil at below $30 independence is clear financial suicide. The Scots understand that.

Junky I really thought this EU refernedum would be a chance for you to be on tje winning side in a debate with me but now I am not so sure, a Leave win looks increasingly on the cards. You're going to have to wait a bit longer it seems

How people can even remotely believe the EU would impose trade tariffs and barriers on an independent UK I will never understand.

At the moment, that is the case. But take the long view. Let's assume that in ten or twenty years time political and economic conditions have changed and that trade flow reverses? They could easily start imposing barriers.

Long view, Jam.

Significant trade barriers remain inside the EU, so easy to imagine anything

Plus what is TTIP all about if not the requirement to negotiate (in secret!) terms of trade between major trading partners?

Do tariffs exist between US and EU? If so, why, based on logic above?

Jambalaya - one word of caution there is that, frankly, all trade figures (bandied around by either side) are utter b***ocks because of the Rotterdam effect.

How people can even remotely believe the EU would impose trade tariffs and barriers on an independent UK I will never understand.

How people believe we can leave a free trade area that we positively contribute , after they just changed the rules to get us to stay, and think nothing at all will change is the bit I dont understand. Why will we be able to negotiate what no other european country has managed?FFS we cannot even get what we want when we sit at the table with them.

You're going to have to wait a bit longer it seems

I am about to quote the CBI YIKES 😯

Imagine me agreeing with the CBO and you disagreeing with them

FWIW i dont think its the critical argument as many will make emotive issue re sovereignty - that is there choice and right- but its pretty obvious business and trade will be negatively affected and no change/impact is up there with shared currency in likelihood of happening. You are AS and THM will be giving you hell 😉

Full details [url= http://news.cbi.org.uk/business-issues/uk-and-the-european-union/choosing-our-future/alternatives/ ]here[/url]

Being like Switzerland means limited access to the EU single market only and where we comply with EU rules
Being like Norway means following European Union rules but having no say
Being like Turkey would leave us with no influence in the EU or in global trade deals
Working through the World Trade Organization would mean the return of tariffs and taxes on trade
Even a special UK-EU Free Trade Agreement would put trade at risk and reduce our influence over the rules

Martin Wolf has its pretty much nailed in the FT today on why its in all sides interests for UK to remain in the UK, on why CMD recent adventure is largely irrelevant and why arguments on EU bureaucracy are largely flawed.

EU membership is not at the root of our economic challenges however much various leave, out, Xenokip players will try to pretend that it is.

The odd thing though is the recognition - coming from Tusk no less - that the UK (yes the UK) is not committed to further integration (no shit Sherlock), while ignoring that is exactly that is/needs to happen for the grander EU project to succeed.

Give that can a big kick Donald!!!

its in all sides interests for UK to remain in the UK

I think, prepare yourself, you are right

The real issue now and if we vote to stay in is that our current position of "reluctant on the sidelines" is unworkable in the long run as closer integration is inevitable especially for the Euro zone.

I suspect most YEs voters will argue its this far and no further but that seems as unlikely to happen as leaving wont affect trade arguiment,

The real issue now and if we vote to stay in is that our current position of "reluctant on the sidelines" is unworkable in the long run as closer integration is inevitable especially for the Euro zone.

Of course it is. Anyone who resists closer integration are at best analagous to people in the 19th century smashing up spinning machines, and at worst are bitter and paranoid isolationists who would rather return to a world where divisions between class, nations, and culture define our existence and where we settle our differences by killing large numbers of people in stupid wars.

Anyone who resists closer integration are at best analagous to people in the 19th century smashing up spinning machines, and at worst are bitter and paranoid isolationists

Not at all. The €-area does not fulfil the necessary criteria to be a common currency area. So there is a basic lie at the hearts of the € project. But that doesn't mean that it will be abandoned, at least not in its entirety. However, to have any chance of survival closer political and fiscal integration is required. Quite sensibly we have/are/will resist that trend. That is a perfectly rational position.

That does not preclude a pro-European position in terms of its original intentions eg, the basic freedoms. They are also perfectly rationale.

But we have a bloody mess at the moment, with the € project flawed and the basic premises that support the original concept ignored when appropriate. All very odd.

Still better than the position a century ago!

Janan Ganash wrote a good article in the FT earlier in the week. He made the point that our pragmatic, rather than the emotional, approach has meant we had adopted a lot of the good stuff but avoided the pitfalls. He also made the point, which TMH has been making, that it is too early for a referendum, as we will only know what we are really signed up to when they resolve the Euro's structural issues.

OUT OUT OUT. They need us more than we need them, you don't see Europe buying our cars, milk, farm produce or anything else do you, and don't worry if your a german motor fan youll still be able to get one (i'd check the emmisions figures first though).

konanige - Member

you don't see Europe buying our cars, milk, farm produce or anything else do you

Can't tell if this was a joke but 57.5% of all cars made in the UK are exported to europe, and the EU is the UK's biggest food export market, with cheese being the 3rd biggest food export.

Yes the figures sound great, but they aren't british cars they are foreign made here after our motor industry was destroyed, and cheese is 3rd on the list after a bit of export followed by hardly bugger all exports, followed by 6lb of cheese.

they aren't british cars they are foreign made here

Pillock.

They are made by people in Britain spending their money in Britain and hence contributing to the British economy. The origin of the company makes absolutely no difference.

This kind of reasoning is why democracy is flawed.

Bravo mes amis, NW and mol....well said 😉

Mefty - yes it was a good article and well written too!

konanige - Member

cheese is 3rd on the list after a bit of export followed by hardly bugger all exports, followed by 6lb of cheese.

I was pretty much expecting this comment so I left the figures on screen- dairy exports are worth £1.4bn with 1/3d of that being cheese alone.

Can't tell if this was a joke

DaRC_L - Member

Some of you do have a very low opinion of British [s]people[/s] management to take charge of their own destiny don't you?

Chewkw did you live in Britain in the 70's... If not then it's time to get back under the rock.

You mean the persistence Union strikes and demands? 😆

It's bleeding obvious that British companies/industries in those days were ... either/or and/or both of the below ...

1. Old style management - poor management skills.
2. Militant Unions - that intended to sabotage due to their communist thinking.

There, you got your formula for the demise of the "glorious" British industry and economy ... (the latter still strong due to their ability to mess around with financial numbers ... you know you set the rules etc your game ...)

BTW did anybody see the latest trade deficit and the Brexit view that we could start trading with the old Commonwealth (who may remember that they were shafted when we voted 'In' to the EU) is over-optimistic.

Merica is in deficit yet they seem to prosper?

The UK suffered a record traded goods deficit of £23.2 Billion with the rest of the European Union in the last quarter of 2015, as exports to other EU countries fell 0.5 percent and imports from the EU rose 2.7 percent. I will retire to bed now secure in the knowledge that come the revolution (referendum) the public will do the right thing and all you naysayers will be lined up against the wall and forced to ride shonky Halfords bikes for the rest of your lives.

What incredibly bright point do you think you've made?

The UK suffered a record traded goods deficit of £23.2 Billion with the rest of the European Union in the last quarter of 2015, as exports to other EU countries fell 0.5 percent and imports from the EU rose 2.7 percent.

I don't know if there is a trade deficit, but taking you a your word how will leaving the EU help increase trade with the EU? Imports may have risen due to the relative strength of the pound. It sounds like increased imports from the EU is evidence that we do need 'them' as much as 'they' need 'us'.

I don't know if there is a trade deficit,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35530340

But I agree, not sure how leaving the EU is realistically going to rebalance. We'll still have to out compete the same competitors to increase exports.

What incredibly bright point do you think you've made?

That Halfords bike are shonky apparently. Always looked like they'd put together some sensibly made and priced bikes to me but there you go.

Halfords bikes are shonky thats true but then they are not made in the EU. If we leave the EU maybe we'll all have to ride bikes made by the same suppliers as Halfords.

Walks in read halfords bit 3 times still has no idea... Time to go back to the pub

How strong is the out vote in the other large economies of Europe?

Whether you are in or out, then you should read this:

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-95a417ab-0982-4512-b550-20d68fd53f87 ]BBC News - Goal Differences[/url]

Been a load in the (Scottish) news regarding the EU farmers payments.

Seems that we've (the Scottish Govt) has spent £180m to pay out (or not) Eur600m in farming subsidies.

I don't think I trust either of them with MY money...

b r - Member

Been a load in the (Scottish) news regarding the EU farmers payments.

Seems that we've (the Scottish Govt) has spent £180m to pay out (or not) Eur600m in farming subsidies.

I don't think I trust either of them with MY money...

Does that mean Scottish Govt pay subsidy to other EU farmers (in addition to their already low labour or production cost) to have competitive advantage to undercut the Scottish farmers ?

Bear in mind some of the EU nations have very low labour cost and with further subsidies they have so much advantages over UK farmers that UK farmers are doomed even before the subsidies.

good read, thanks dragon

I'm undecided, the one thing I am sure of is there's 100 different versions of what will happen if we stay or leave, all purporting to be the facts. I'll probably end up voting to stay due to "better the devil you know". There's a lot about being in the EU I don't like but it's not bad enough I'd want to take the risk of the UK economy suffering if we left.

FuzzyWuzzy - Member
I'll probably end up voting to stay due to "better the devil you know".

IMO the devil knows you better than you know him/her and s/he will always have the upper hand over you regardless. Giving the devil more advantage or power is merely an illusion of self control. 😆

A theory, Cameron will return from Brussells tonight to declare a hard fought but good deal for Britain perhaps with an additional "surprise" concession. He will go to Parliament to announce June 23rd referendum.

@Fuzzy, do you feel you knkw better the Devil that is the European parliament or the one that sits in Westminster ? The reality is whatever the EU looks like today its going to be very different in 5 years time. A Greek debt default could see the end of the euro, that would make the EU look very different. A win for Marine le Penn next year could see huge changes in France's relationship with Europe and a very different set of priorities. Neither if those are thungs we can influence, how is that devil better known than Westminster

A theory, Cameron will return from Brussells tonight to declare a hard fought but good deal for Britain perhaps with an additional "surprise" concession. He will go to Parliament to announce June 23rd referendum.

how is that devil better known than Westminster

Its fantastically unlikely but no more so than your "example".

What about england votes to leave but Scotland and Wales had voted to leave. Can we really predict the outcome of that for the UK over the medium to long term? It may be that a vote to leave the EU os a vote that breaks the other Uniion.

jambalaya - Member

A theory, Cameron will return from Brussells tonight to declare a hard fought but good deal for Britain

Even if all he brings home is a packet of free biscuits from the plane he'll still declare it a hard fought but good deal for britain.

OUT as simple as that!

OUT! I/We elect a government and to be told by a bunch a unelected eurocrats or other member state leaders that we cannot do something makes a mockery of British sovereignty!

We elect a government

When exactly did i get to vote for the Lords or the sovereign?

Our govts [ of all hues] regularly pass laws and do thing the electorate quite clearly opposes and quite often were not in their manifesto and were the opposite of what their manifesto said.

one does not have to go to Brussels to see the people sovereignty ignored.

Wow I thought we elected individual MPs - Did I miss a big vote on the government
When exactly did i get to vote for the Lords or the sovereign?

Our govts [ of all hues] regularly pass laws and do thing the electorate quite clearly opposes and quite often were not in their manifesto and were the opposite of what their manifesto said.

one does not have to go to Brussels to see the people sovereignty ignored.

So maybe our government does pass rules the electoral don't agree with, but at least we are given the chance to cast our vote to another party after the 5 year period.

Please explain to me why you think Poland has the right to argue that the UK cannot change the rule regarding paying child benefit to Polish citizens who work in the UK, but who's children reside in Poland?

is it because the rules apply to everyone in the EU and the UK signed and agreed to these rules and cannot now change its mind without the consent of all the members of the EU?

Are you suggesting it more democratic that one side can just change its mind on agreed terms and impose them on the others? Imagine if Germany changed its mind on the Euro and tried to make us join. Would you be arguing this is democratic and that we had no right to veto it? I suspect you just use this argument when it suits you.

You can paint this as undemocratic but coming form a nation with an unelected head of state, an unelected chamber, the non separation of the executive from the legislature we are really in no position to lecture other countries on democracy.

To be clear all democracies are flawed ours and the EU. The argument works equally well against either

I am not contesting your points, but without uniform fiscal policy, benefits, minimum wage ... the whole EU offering is flawed. It will favor some nations and be a hindrance to others.

"but coming form a nation with an unelected head of state" - unless I am mislead, our head of state plays no part in parliamentary decisions.

Please explain to me why you think Poland has the right to argue that the UK cannot change the rule regarding paying child benefit to Polish citizens who work in the UK, but who's children reside in Poland?

Cam will come back with some sweeteners

All the brexit nonsense is damaging for trade, the EU and UK can't afford to be in this position whatever the telegraph/ hate mail try and tell us

"but coming form a nation with an unelected head of state" - unless I am mislead, our head of state plays no part in parliamentary decisions.

. The UK (governments formed by those parties you're such a fan of!) chose to sign up to a club where they agreed to treat other states' citizens the same as its own. If the UK doesn't like the rules of the club it can either convince the other members to change the rules or it can sod off.

As the whole EU trade argument (yawn), business will carry on as usual. Are we all that naive to think that Europe will say "don't do business with those naughty Brits?"

Hopefully, my 'Vote to leave' leaflets will be with me soon and I can spend a few Saturdays in mu local town convincing the uninformed masses why we should wave goodbye to the EU.

Out. Sick to death of being dictated to....Oh wait....

I'm still an 'Out' though.

but coming form a nation with an unelected head of state" - unless I am mislead, our head of state plays no part in parliamentary* decisions.

TBH we could debate whether the rile is largely ceremonial or real but one cannot mock the lack of democracy in others whilst we have a hereditary head of state /crown with actual political powers [ however limited or ceremonial- reality is no one knows what wil happen if the crown tries to use the royal prerogative/ refused to sign a law

* FWIW parliament is the House of lords, The crown and the Commons

Only one of the three is elected and you want to lecture the EU ofn democracy. like a wig wearer attacking Trumps hair do.

Out. Sick to death of being dictated to....Oh wait....

I'm still an 'Out' though.

Cam will come back with some sweeteners

Maybe but theyr'e all liars & wouldn't believe a thing he/they promised.

Still 'out'

And your point is?

As the whole EU trade argument (yawn), business will carry on as usual.

HAhahah this is like arguing one can get divorced and the former spouse will still do your washing and make your sarnies for work. Its only ever said by fools - clearly it will be affected if by nothing else the uncertainty alone will have an impact.

Are we all that naive to think that Europe will say "don't do business with those naughty Brits?"

Hopefully, my 'Vote to leave' leaflets will be with me soon and I can spend a few Saturdays in mu local town convincing the uninformed masses why we should wave goodbye to the EU.

if your arguing and debating is as good as on here i will get some more leaflets for you - you think asking a question getting an answer and then going so what will persuade folk ...LOL

EU-SSR ... 😆

The Russian tried Soviet Union, well you know the result ... they are back to "Russian" now.

The Chinese tried their hands on the same idea to see if they could better the Soviet Union or Russian ... guess what ... The Chinese are slowly going back to their Chinese roots now.

[b]Now it is the turn of the EU and the British lefties[/b] to take the great leap into trying the mass Utopia of equality hallucination feel good factor whatever shite they are injecting smoking taking ... 😛

Never learn from history ... told you I see you coming and obvious is obvious ... 😆