[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

[quote=dannybgoode ]So why did people vote to leave again?...

Because they're thick? Well somebody had to say it!

(and no, not all of them, but enough that the small minority voting for well thought out reasons could swing it)

So Hannan wants all the good things but doesnt want to pay his share. Typical politicians.

Why should the UK pay when we import more than we export ? Its the EU that wants access to our markets.

People voted to leave due to a belief about immigration - rightly or wrongly

France, Holland, Italy, Austria, Finland, Hungary, Portugal, and Slovakia all appear to be considering referendums .. (Ipsos Mori Poll)

But he hasn't. He's leaving it to someone else.

He's been handed a sh1t sandwich & doesn't want to take a bite - who can blame him?

Yes, he made said sh1t sandwich but I don't see anyone for Remain falling over themselves for a nibble?

What does that tell you?.....

What does that tell you?.....

The Remain campaign did not get a message across that spoke to the larger voting public that addressed the concern(s) they have/had.

The problem with "getting a message across" is that it relies on both the sender and receiver being able to understand it. Where do you think the fault lies? I refer again to the big booklet that we all got through the door. What about the Moneysupermarket guy who was regarded as the best impartial voice? Everyone knows about him, he's the geezer who gets you money off your bills, if you can be arsed to do something about it.

The evidence was there. In academic-speak. It was there in dumbed-down speak. It was there, full ****ing stop.

And anyway, if people were so unsure, why did they just not abstain and leave it up to others?

To my mind, for three reasons:

1) They were genuinely not intelligent enough to realise what they were doing.
2) They thought they knew what they were doing (getting 'rid' of foreigners - including British people with browner skin than theirs), so chose to ignore impending economic meltdown as it was perceived to be 'worth it'.
3) Old and pissed off with some laws being made in Brussels by people they hadn't voted for themselves, and not needing to give a shit about the next decade as they're already retired with the mortgage paid off.

How many more times can we do the "it's someone else's fault we cocked it up" line of argument before its proponents see it is horse shit?

The problem with "getting a message across" is that it relies on both the sender and receiver being able to understand it.

Why should the UK pay when we import more than we export ? Its the EU that wants access to our markets.

FFS, Jambas are you just taking the Mikey wih this stuff now?

True Danny - its time people took responsibility for their actions, (2) BTW

It also requires the sender to engage with the receiver. With our highly polarised press and media our "receivers" would only be seeing stuff from the "senders" they read/watch/listen to. On both sides. No-one sees each others arguments.

So we need one-to-ones, then? Because people only want to look at one side of the argument it is somehow the other side's fault? Have a look at what you are saying and then have a little thinking time.

At least the "I now know I am a gullible moron" excuse holds water.

Repeating over and over again that "I didn't get the email" is just laughable.

After the Brexit disaster , other countries might have a referendum but with a different question , not in or out .

[img] [/img]

I've had enough for tonight, I'm watching the last 45 minutes of Brexit 2, it would be fitting if England went out to a screamer of an own goal, into the top corner from 20 yards out.

A guy at work heard that the banks would be moving to Ireland.

He couldn't understand why, as Ireland was coming out as well.

I explained that there were referring to Eire, not Northern Ireland.

He didn't realise that there were two 'Irelands'...

Yep, he voted Leave.

😀

Maybe everyone needs to do a short general knowledge and basic reasoning test before they are allowed to vote.

Twenty questions get asked. You have ten minutes to answer.

Then your vote is scaled by your marks out of twenty.

maybe out = cross on romania on a map of europe

Here's the article about MPs voting on Article 50 (by a constitutional lawyer, not Jamba-fact):
[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/stop-brexit-mp-vote-referendum-members-parliament-act-europe ]https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/stop-brexit-mp-vote-referendum-members-parliament-act-europe[/url]

Basically, write to your MP. I will be - as a now-ex Tory voter in a Tory seat.

Q1. What is the plural of referendum

Errr that's it... 😉

I can't see how MPs could easily avoid voting the way that their constituents asked for. It was a very clear vote. They could just ignore it but then they are unlikely to get voted back in again.
interesting times

Tuition fees???

Yeah they might not get voted back in, however with fixed term parliaments it means there are 3 years until the next election.
Voters will forget in that time

it would be fitting if England went out to a screamer of an own goal, into the top corner from 20 yards out.

[img] [/img]

[quote=leffeboy ]I can't see how MPs could easily avoid voting the way that their constituents asked for. It was a very clear vote. They could just ignore it but then they are unlikely to get voted back in again.

For a Tory* MP in a safe seat where there is no realistic threat from UKIP, who are the electorate going to vote for instead?

* the same may apply for MPs from other parties, it's just the most obvious example

Voters will forget in that time

For a Tory* MP in a safe seat where there is no realistic threat from UKIP, who are the electorate going to vote for instead?

[quote=dannyh ]2) They thought they knew what they were doing

[img] [/img]

Anyhow, I've figured out how to win any argument.

Keep answering back until someone makes a genuine point that contradicts my point of view. Then pretend I didn't see or hear their point. Then carry on blithely as before.

Suddenly, life becomes very simple.

I can't believe I haven't hit on this solution up until now.

@mike you'll be sleeping but S&P have downgraded the UK, theynwhere the outlier as the other agencies tookmaway the AAA a while ago. This will make no difference imo as many investors take the "lowest of" when it comes to credit ratings.

Fitch also downgraded us from AA+ to AA.

And Moody's downgraded our outlook from "stable" to "negative".

oh yes please

https://www.change.org/p/prosecute-nigel-farage-under-the-racial-and-religious-hatred-act-2006

I think Philip Pullman may have a point (or two or three):
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/jun/25/philip-pullman-on-the-1000-causes-of-brexit

dannyh - Member
Anyhow, I've figured out how to win any argument.

Keep answering back until someone makes a genuine point that contradicts my point of view. Then pretend I didn't see or hear their point. Then carry on blithely as before.

Suddenly, life becomes very simple.

I can't believe I haven't hit on this solution up until now.

You've only just tumbled to his strategy? Surely not?

😉

I can't see how MPs could easily avoid voting the way that their constituents asked for. It was a very clear vote.

True. But the point of having a representative in Parliament is that sometimes, being, well, educated, they might know best on some points, depending on the constituency. Which takes us back to the origin problem that the referendum should never have been asked of people who think The Pub Landlord is a real person not the satirical creation of an Oxford-educated aristocrat.
Either way, the next PM is going to have to piss off at least half the population and if I were him I'd piss off the poor, stupid half not the bright, better-off half.

Outlook is nothing really Graham. S&P where an outlier somthey've come back into line. We are Aa1/AA/AA and our cost of borrowing has gone down after the vote.

If people think this is market volatility just wait till the eurozone debt crises, what we saw in 2010 was only a dress rehersal

[url= https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/stop-brexit-mp-vote-referendum-members-parliament-act-europe ]Lobby your MP to vote against Brexit[/url]

Clearly an expert in the financial world aren't you Jam.

I see Hodgson has followed Cameron's lead.

the eurozone debt crises, what we saw in 2010

our cost of borrowing has gone down after the vote

Source please!

Clearly an expert in the financial world aren't you Jam.

Indeed I am, 30 years Goldman, Deutsche, Standard Chartered etc

Speaking of financial experts

[img] [/img]

Source please!

@mefty

[quote=jambalaya ]

Clearly an expert in the financial world aren't you Jam.

Indeed I am, 30 years Goldman, Deutsche, Standard Chartered etc
Sweeping the office doesn't count

jambalaya - Member

Clearly an expert in the financial world aren't you Jam.

Indeed I am, 30 years Goldman, Deutsche, Standard Chartered etc

Yeah but thats 30 years of trying to pass the 6 month probation period!

I have no doubt that you are very good at what you do but you seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that many people are going to suffer because of that decision .

Hang on. You don't suppose jamba is in fact Farage?

If people think this is market volatility just wait till the eurozone debt crises, what we saw in 2010 was only a dress rehersal

I've been waiting for the eurozone debt crisis, and waiting, and waiting and waiting. And eventually along came a sterling crisis in its place.

Guys don't you remember that Jamba was boasting he'd caused the banking collapse a few years ago 😉

I thought i would ask, i may have missed the announcement on Friday, What is the plan? I am sure one of the brexit supporters must know?

Also a little concerned by the rising racial abuse i am reading and witnessing, I am assuming this is under control and the vote leave lot have a plan in place being rolled out as i type?

It's interesting (and scary) to see the level of racism now.

I suspect the cohort of racists now think they have the backing of the country aligned with their thinking and feel more comfortable to be more vocal than they would have previously.

It's truly a scary world we live in.

Newsnight,
implying that the EU and germany are going to shit on us in the negotiations, pissed at Cameron for forcing concessions out of them and then still ballsing up the referendum.
Of course they dont want us dragging out the (start of) negotiations, its hurting global finance.
Germany will take a hit to their exports to end this

My prediction is that at best well Norway style deal, but pay more than Norway to access the free market and culural/science/healthcare exchanges, have to accept freedom of movement and abide by all that hated red tape to trade with them, probably try and have some influence on our trade with rest of the world

Or if we dick around too much, theyll just cast us off and happily take our best Brefugees, all those Nissan plants and Banks that want access to teh single market

happy days

[quote=mrmo ]I thought i would ask, i may have missed the announcement on Friday, What is the plan? I am sure one of the brexit supporters must know?

In case there is still any doubt about this, and for those that have missed it:

Asked a few days before the vote whether he had such a plan for the day after if the Leave campaign won Boris Johnson was brutally frank - in private at least. No was his answer.
He and other Leavers declared their hope that David Cameron would have one and would stay in office to implement it.

When he first proposed a referendum three years ago I asked the prime minister what his Plan B was if his renegotiation failed or he lost the referendum.
He refused to contemplate any such possibility. I asked him again during the general election campaign - he was no more willing to consider failure. The civil service were banned from making plans for Brexit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36638003

My prediction is that at best well Norway style deal, but pay more than Norway to access the free market and culural/science/healthcare exchanges, have to accept freedom of movement and abide by all that hated red tape to trade with them

@scotroutes: thank you for posting that Downfall clip; that is the first thing to actually make me laugh (not just out of utter despair) since Friday morning!

Brilliant. When even Aussie kids are taking the piss:

+1 thanks scotroutes - that's probably the only good this to come out of this sorry mess.

This weeks 'Ben Elton' monologue

I thought this was a joke initially, but it appears to be real - The Brexit Commmemorative Gold Plated Coin!
- http://www.westminstercollection.com/p-838W/The-BREXIT-Gold-Plated-Commemorative.aspx?sn=5&gclid=CNyT3JKvyc0CFQtAGwodUQEKgQ#tAGwodUQEKgQ

I've had enough. I'm going to bed. When I wake up hopefully it will all have been a bad dream.

Phew!.....panic over.....we're not leaving, or at least I am starting to believe so.

[url= https://m.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1200279093330132&id=137432829614769 ]Link to David Allen Greens analysis of Article 50[/url] from a link I followed from George Magnus on Twitter.

One of the positives of this entire Brexit charade is that I am now starting to follow some very interesting economic and political thinkers on Twitter/online blogs, and I am realising that the Economics higher that I studied and passed at school with an A (smug prick alert 😉 ) is totally bloody useless.

Another interesting well written article on [url= http://www.stephenkinsella.net/2016/06/26/fiscal-space-what-fiscal-space/#more-7104 ]Brexit and the consequences by Steven kinsella[/url]

Brexit - Day 5
The housemates are all still sleeping off a massive hangover, occasionally Boris looks up but then hides again hoping it will all be just a bad dream...

So 5 days in and good news a new PM to deal with this by September, over 2 months of this to go...
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-28/global-sharemarkets-continue-to-plunge-following-brexit/7549358

The Dow Jones Index fell 1.5 per cent or 261 points to 17,140.

The S&P 500 lost 1.8 per cent or 37 points to 2,001 hit by a dive in banks, with Bank of America falling more than 6 per cent and JP Morgan dumping more than 3 per cent.

The Nasdaq plunged 2.4 per cent or 114 points to 4,594 on fears that Brexit could hurt the technology sector.

In Europe, markets were hit again as British Prime Minister David Cameron rejected calls for a second vote on Brexit.

In London, the FTSE lost 2.6 per cent or 156 points to 5,982; in Frankfurt, the DAX tumbled 3 per cent or 289 points to 9,269; while in Paris, the CAC 40 also declined 3 per cent or 122 points to 3,985.

In local futures trade, the ASX SPI 200 has dived 1.3 per cent, or 67 points, to 5,001.

Fitch cut its credit rating by one notch from AA+ to AA, with a negative outlook.

It lowered Britain's economic growth forecast to 0.9 per cent in 2017 and 2018 from 2 per cent previously.

"Fitch believes that uncertainty following the referendum outcome will induce an abrupt slowdown in short-term GDP growth," its analysis read.

Both ratings agencies listed a possible second referendum on Scottish independence as a significant risk in the future.

To borrow a phrase the Tories are dicking around with party politics while everything around them burns.

Things will stabalise eventually, but a recovery needs some credible and positive action. Not half baked ideas and speculation or Jamby's special blend of doesn't agree/doesn't exist reasoning.
Project fear is being exposed as lies - the EU might not have been that bad after all, the rest of the world seems to think the UK is making a big mistake.

The very sad part is by the time somebody gets round to making a decision the UK will be set back 5-10 years. Confidence and credibility will be smashed.

Even something so simple as BoJo etc declaring he was up for the job and meeting CMD to discuss options with any other potential challenger.

Lol everything is short term. To what is actually going to happen is basically nothing
We are all to in twinned and that's why everything is inverted commas short time worded.
The U.K. Is structurally sound and the banks have been constantly tested since of their collapse.
Against a fragile European economy full of nearly all members in debt. Just give up all the speculation and the what if's
Nothing is going to happen without hurting the other and the U.K. Economy is singly stronger and we can lower
our interest rates and also print new money, in Europe you cannot do that but take out a further loan.

Yep the short term is bad and damaging, it will influence business and their investment decisions which are long term. It will impact the very fragile recovery that will be hampered by the levels of debt the country has and individuals have. Lowering interest rates and printing cash? So Inflation, you cost of living rises but you have no way to increase your income? Standards of living drop? Peoples ability to spend drops? Demand drops?

To what is actually going to happen is basically nothing

How long before TATA, BMW, Toyota, Nissan start following the banks and start moving to Europe?

gLol everything is short term. To what is actually going to happen is basically nothing

This seems be a common brixteer's response. What it they are really saying is that the best case scenario is that we end where we would be if we had voted to stay, but with less political influence and no money saving.

And with a ****ed-over economy in the mean time. More than 2 months of paralysis before we even get a govt!

Genius. I'm going to start running my projects etc at work with no 'what if' planning. Bound to all come good.

Actually I suspect I'd lose my job fairly quickly.

We have to look at the what if's otherwise we won't know which is the best path out of this mess. We do need a plan, we do need to look forward, and backwards (to understand how we got here).

To say otherwise is grossly negligent (well if would be if you were in a position of power but no one in power would not have a plan...).

it is as if the whole thing is secretly being run by this bloke
[img] [/img]
Without any of the good luck and funny jokes

Has the EU suddenly become the super state that people feared? if you are not in the club the union will deliberately screw you.

I'm beginning to think this could be the best thing to happen to the UK for decades.. a whiff of a political revolution without a brick being thrown.

Has the EU suddenly become the super state that people feared? if you are not in the club the union will deliberately screw you.

Not really, so basically on predictions remain are still up with leave yet to score 1 correct answer...

YOu also have to define screwing over, it implies malice whereas the EU is doing what is best for the EU and those that want to remain. Complaining they are going to screw us over by not giving us everything we want for no cost to us is not very accurate.

How long until the bricks start flying though? Contracting economy, a rapidly unraveling pack of lies about immigration and investment, the anger is going to keep building.

I had thought that maybe it would all sort itself out fairly soon, and we'd end up with a Norway-like setup once the grownups took charge.

But now, I don't know. This is going to drag on until September's Tory leadership election at the earliest, by which time we will be in a proper full-on recession.

I think I will actually start moving what's left of my various pension funds and ISAs into funds that are going to be less exposed to this giant omnishambles. It's going to get worse, and I think I'll let people who are more optimistic than me have my UK shares.

As for the racism that's been allowed out by the leave campaign, that also has nasty consequences that can't be ignored.

Protectionism at the cost of a country outside the club is not something to be championed though is it? The EU will be working hard to create something acceptable for all.

He refused to contemplate any such possibility. I asked him again during the general election campaign - he was no more willing to consider failure. The civil service were banned from making plans for Brexit.

Why are people surprised there is no 'Plan'. Of course there isn't.

Why would we spend millions on a new [s]government[/s] civil service department to deal with this when it may never come to fruition. It was the same with the Scottish referendum. As far as the CS go, it's business as usual. They react in large scale situations like this otherwise the potential loss of public expenditure is too great.

they have not bit the westminster elite they have punched themself in the face and they are too stupid to realise this

Actually it's more like they've kicked themselves in the nuts. If you've ever been kicked in the nuts, there's a brief period where you think 'odd - I thought that would hurt?'

and then the pain comes....

Collectively we're in that in between bit, but shortly we'll be doubled over with only ourselves to blame

There's no plan because there is no plausible goal or path. We might as well have voted for everyone to be given a unicorn, and then complained that no-one had a plan to catch them.

theocb - Member
Protectionism at the cost of a country outside the club is not something to be championed though is it? The EU will be working hard to create something acceptable for all.

Funny how the pro-leave posters and politicians seem to be just crossing their fingers and hoping...

It's like a bunch of 7 years olds saying they wish their parents would stop telling them what to do, then waking up and finding they were on their own.

The spelling and grammar and intelligence of the thought displayed by them would do for a bunch of 7 year olds. The playground racism of the Brexiteers too. 🙁

If it wasn't such a tragedy that is going to screw things up for my kids, I'd laugh. But the old have screwed things up for the young, and the less educated and invested in society have screwed things up for themselves.

theocb - Member
Protectionism at the cost of a country outside the club is not something to be championed though is it? The EU will be working hard to create something acceptable for all.

So why is it acceptable for the UK to only think about itself and essentially put two fingers up to the rest of Europe, but not for the EU to do the same?

The argument seems to be that it's perfectly fine for us as a country to do something which has massive effects to others, not just in Europe but also around the world. That we can do all this stuff in our own selfish self interest, but when the other countries look to do the same thing and protect themselves from the mess we have started then people start to complain that it's not fair etc...

That sounds dangerously like a 'do as I say and not as I do' type argument!

Day 5

I still feel sad 🙁

I'm over eating

I've not ridden my bike

I've not ridden my bike

The other EU countries have their own constraints, and couldn't be generous to the UK even if they wanted to. Meanwhile Boris is still living on fantasy island, Hunt was the most recent to come out with a nonsense statement (negotiate a settlement and then have another referendum/election [b]before[/b] invoking article 50)...it's as if they think they can make things happen just by saying them.