[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

No you didn't, why is the legal commitment to fully collateralised funding "quite a laugh"? Have you read the documents because I have...

Did it work last time - you still have answered the question about what happened last time? Was it collateralised and was it paid back? Tow simple questions requiring two, one-word answers. Go on....

Teamhurtmore, you don't sit around the table eating what you like then excuse yourself to the bathroom when the bill comes.

Simple enough terms?

Remain have used 'your house prices will suffer', taxes will go up.

What do you think will happen in <5yrs when something major does happen anyway?

Dave gets the public in apparent agreement with him. What do you think he'll push ahead with?

Do you think he'll sit there and behave?

He's a Tory, he'll carry on with his plans to screw our country.

At least a out victory will say no Dave, we don't agree.

We should look for change. Our/the EU as it is is like a lifeless marriage and we are scared to think what being anything else would be like.

Anyway I'm out. I'm a working class Graduate, who volunteers weekly, gives blood regularly and would step in for anyone in trouble.

I just would like to humanise the other camp. Remain paints us as idiots who are quasi-racist. Im sick of the hold the Tories have and how weak the opposition are. Something needs to change.

See you on the other side and good luck.

That's a lot of words but no answer.....unsurprising.

Good luck indeed, you sound quite tense. Is it having to pretend all the lies are in fact true? That must be stressful.

I have the EU legislation in front of me, so you can sleep easy re our liability to Greece, That's one less burden to carry for you. Let Jambas stress unnecessarily about that one for you.

If you really believe that you are quite simply deluded tmh. Having the 1000's of pages of the various documents in front of you on a web page is one thing understanding how it really works is quite another.

I am with Boris, Gove, Hannan and all those in the Leave camp that share my view on how we will be obliged to pay up. Its all about the project or as Alex would say the dream. They won't allow that to die for the sake of a trillion euros.

Mr Woppit - Member
Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:

• Governor of the Bank of England [b](his job is on the line)[/b]
• International Monetary Fund [b](Legalised international loan shark)[/b]
• Institute for Fiscal Studies [b](Only studied past events)[/b]
• Confederation of British Industry [b](protecting individual self interest)[/b]
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU [b](they want to you to feed them, their population and they want to share you)[/b]
• President of the United States of America [b](The good, the bad and the ugly all in one person not the person but the position)[/b]
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries [b](how many recession and financial crisis caused by them combine? They might have a stake somewhere in some big businesses)[/b]
• President of China [b](tell China that you want to educate their people)[/b]
• Prime Minister of India [b](never offer an advise for the minority)[/b]
• Prime Minister of Canada [b](probably pal with France)[/b]
• Prime Minister of Australia [b](they are trying to cut ties with BritLand)[/b]
• Prime Minister of Japan [b](whatever Merican says ...)[/b]
• Prime Minister of New Zealand [b](whatever Aussie says ...)[/b]
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc. [b](You listen to CEOs regarding your life you might as well hang yourself)[/b]
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations [b](I thought he has retired? Is he a consultant now?)[/b]
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties) [b](none possessed the leadership quality that can handle the responsibility of the nation)[/b]
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists [b](look to the past but never get the future right ... talk a lot, inflate self worth)[/b]
• The Prime Minister of the UK [b](Toast!)[/b]
• The leader of the Labour Party [b](Communist from the past) [/b]
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats [b](the true stereotype of BritLand people) [/b]
• The Leader of the Green Party [b](smoking too much weed I guess)[/b]
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party [b](Freedommm! Revenge! Revenge!)[/b]
• The leader of Plaid Cymru [b](trying to emulate SNP leadership style)[/b]
• Leader of Sinn Fein [b](You don't say you don't know?)[/b]
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly [b](Shut up! (young girl's expression) Who is this insignificant person?)[/b]
• The Secretary General of the TUC [b](are the elites still demanding pay increase for themselves?)[/b]
• Unison [b](How much have you dude out of the people you are representing? How much are you paid?)[/b]
• National Union of Students [b](little bunnies are going to the pot)[/b]
• National Union of Farmers [b](All the members or just the ones doing well?)[/b]
• Stephen Hawking [b](I am sorry but as clever as you are this is not the time for you to voice your concern)[/b]
• Chief Executive of the NHS [b](another CEO ... how much do you get paid?)[/b]
• 300 of the most prominent international historians [b](Didn't Rome teach you a lesson?)[/b]
• Director of Europol [b](Just do your job properly! Did you see that coming with all your intelligence?)[/b]
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation [b](Do you job properly with what you have!)[/b]
• Former Directors of GCHQ [b](just do you job rather than getting others to do it for you ... besides that's your former job)[/b]
• Secretary General of Nato [b](Crikey, what BritLand be part of Russia?)[/b]
• Church of England [b](stick to your own belief)[/b]
• Church in Scotland [b](stick to your own belief)[/b]
• Church in Wales [b](stick to your own belief)[/b]
• Friends of the Earth [b](if BritLand is OUT of EU we are not going to torture Earth you know)[/b]
• Greenpeace [b](you need to get bit more violence otherwise you are push over and BritLand ain't going to be told/advised by push over.)[/b]
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation [b](You change tone we give you good pension in Brazil for the rest of your life)[/b]
• WWF [b](you need to start shooting poachers you know ... )[/b]
• World Bank [b](part of the load shark cartel)[/b]
• OECD [b](Just publish information and stick your nose somewhere else)[/b]

^^^ Just had some fun answering the above ... 😆

Crikey that many on the list want to enslave the population no wonder life is getting worst everyday ...

As for the economists ...
They evaluate past information.
They criticised past events only after they are over.
But none could predict the past recession or global financial crisis until the crisis was over.

I am with Boris, Gove, Hannan and all those in the Leave camp that share my view on how we will be obliged to pay up

I am with Boris, Gove, Hannan and all those in the Leave camp that share my view on how we will be obliged to pay up

I just would like to humanise the other camp. Remain paints us as idiots who are quasi-racist. Im sick of the hold the Tories have and how weak the opposition are. Something needs to change.

paints us as idiots who are quasi-racist

Well, given the evidence in this thread, it would be very, very difficult to come to any other conclusion 🙁

This one alone:

Stephen Hawking (I am sorry but as clever as you are this is not the time for you to voice your concern)

Out of the people I know, the science and engineering community are entirely for remain. Prof Hawking is absolutely correct to express his concerns publicly as Brexit would have significant implications for research and for applied sciences

"Stephen Hawking (I am sorry but as clever as you are this is not the time for you to voice your concern)"

defines the poster as an utter ****

Indeed. Mentioning Stephen Hawking's voice when everyone knows that he needs to use a speech synthesiser is churlish to say the least.

I'm going to say one thing in public then do another in private, boooooom that's how we roll!

I loves me cheap builders, cleaners, nannies, retirement home care workers!

Who'd work in all them holiday camps, London Hotels, tourist coffee shops, tourist eateries, garden centres, hospitals would be filthy without migrant labour! Who'd cram all those men into those unfit houses (Crumpsall and Higher Broughton shining Manchester examples), drive taxis at night (under someone else's licence), work in takeaway kitchens and car wash stations (cash businesses) makes you think ehh! thank **** I don't do any of those jobs or am subject to first generation immigrants exploitation!

rkk01 - Member
This one alone:
Stephen Hawking (I am sorry but as clever as you are this is not the time for you to voice your concern)

defines the poster as an utter ****

You are not a full pint aren't you if you cannot even get the last word spell out ...

Out of the people I know, the science and engineering community are entirely for remain. Prof Hawking is absolutely correct to express his concerns publicly as Brexit would have significant implications for research and for applied sciences

ernie_lynch - Member
Indeed. Mentioning Stephen Hawking's voice when everyone knows that he needs to use a speech synthesiser is churlish to say the least.

Ah I see I see ... wrong word as in language usage ...

No, I am not standing that low to aim at someone else disability so try not suggest that or twist my words. Let's put it this way in our culture it is a taboo to talk about other's disability. Search through this forum to see if I take a swipe at their disability ... simple.

I am aiming at his views which I am sure most you will agreed is fair game. 🙂

However, you lot are all fair game when it comes to logic ... coz yours are messed up dude!

They have their reasons I have mine. I don't tell them where to get their funding they should not tell me how to vote. They stick to their way of life I stick to mine. Everyone's happy.

mikewsmith - Member

They have their reasons I have mine. I don't tell them where to get their funding they should not tell me how to vote. They stick to their way of life I stick to mine. Everyone's happy.

Oh the **** irony

[url= http://www.nature.com/news/turning-point-1.20082 ]Nature editorial[/url]

and the thing I actually came to post...
There has been a lot said about how the remain is all negative and criticising of the magic beans land of milk and honey pitch from Leave and how it's all that damm negativity thats the main problem...
So, my bit of a what has the EU ever done for us/me

I was over at a European sales meeting in Paris recently, people from all over the EU turned up. For the 3 days everyone was happily using their phones, business as usual as the EU had delivered a great deal on cross border EU wide phone charges. Things like that make buisness run smoother across borders and increases productivity.

I also just hopped on a train and after some brief passport control got off in Paris, after the meeting I went and spent a week up in Amsterdam with one of the distributors. Simple easy movement of people with no visa regulations meant I could do this easily. Compare that with some of my other recent trips (US visa needed, Indoneasian Visa needed and Singapore paperwork... queues stress hassle and cash) If you want to work in the US it's still either a lottery or difficult process, want your partner to be able to work 😆
Not straight forward for lots of places. The way the EU works allows things like airbus to spread the work between countries ensuring lots can share in it's sucess rather than one and lots can share the risk too.

Standards - harmomising standards for testing of cars, electrical appliances etc may not be perfect but it's harmonised. One thing to aim for not 28, want to improve or change these - we need to be in the EU to do that. Out of the EU we would just have to follow and be judged by them (remember that market is the largest economy in the world)

Rural Development Funding - changing the way we use and manage our countryside. Funding things like the 7 Stanes and other projects working to redevelop communities that were failing, of course you can do that without the EU just nobody did..

Anti Trust and Competition
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_competition_law
Taking on the big guys (the ones people keep claiming are above the law) and rectifying practice, fining and changing the way these people operate. The UK could do some of this but doing it from an EU level is much stronger and better for all consumers in the long run.

Just a short sample of things, I'm sure many more can be added, but now for the opinion bit...
There are lots of complaints about things like not getting what we want, getting a raw deal etc. here is how public perception stands up against fact
[img] [/img]

And now for the real problem, the UK's impression of the EU is based on what we put in, we elect people like Farage who has no interest in working with anyone for the benefit of the UK. He takes his cash and does nothing, so everytime somebody tells you the EU won't let us or the EU doesn't work for us just see how much those MEP's actually tried.
[img] [/img]

So in summary - it's not perfect but leaving means
we give away a lot (is that a negative?)
gain very little
retain the soverengty we already have
still have the laws we make
still have to work within EU standards or regulations

So if you want change don't ditch the EU ditch the shit MEP's, or better still actuall vote in the EU elections and take your own MP to task too.

I'm up in Leeds right now. Goole to be precise, lovely place. Had the pleasure of witnessing a referendum meeting at the hotel in which I was staying. Opinion of the the young lad and lass on the bar was that is you're a narrow minded racist who couldn't find Europe on a map, then you'll probably vote out.
There were a worrying number of them though.

Whenever I've spoken to 'leave' voters and we've worked through their reasons for their vote..it's always ended up with concerns about Muslims and immigration. That appears to be the base of it.

So if you want change don't ditch the EU ditch the shit MEP's, or better still actuall vote in the EU elections and take your own MP to task too.

Agreed

So anyone who wants to vote for Brexit is narrow minded? That's a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. That's a great way to conduct a debate in a modern democracy isn't it? Deploying 6 year old school playground tactics in abusing anyone with different views to themselves.

Sightly disingenuous that HFW alone gets the credit for fighting against a rule/law that was brought in by the EU in the first place. I don't believe for a second that it was his petition and his petition alone that caused the EU to change their policy. What other pressure was being applied to the EU...I don't know, say from the French and Spanish fishing industries? I wonder who would have had more sway in the EU decision making process? The French and Spanish fishing lobby or HFW and his 'not quite a million' signatures? Talk about a no-brainer issue anyway.

I love the way so many things that have been brought in while we've been a member of the EU have been attributed to the EU. For example alot of the environmental policies have not been brought in by the EU, but by the UN and other international bodies and forums, and just endorsed by the EU....but the EU gets the credit. And in alot of cases most member states have implemented rules that go beyond those brought in by the EU.

There is alot of smoke and mirrors going on with both sides.

I'm no longer worried about Brexit. It's obvious that there is no exit plan and no-one will dare light the 2-year exit fuse. After N years of futile talks about hypothetical future trade deals (and the rest of it) there will be new general election at which the main parties will all promise to light the fuse when the time is right...and it never will be.

Of course there will be plenty of collateral damage to the economy, and especially those at the bottom of it. And it will damage our relationship with the EU, without actually changing it fundamentally. So I don't loook forward to a brexit vote, but I can't see it really affecting me much either way. And it's certainly fun watching the tories rip themselves apart over it.

What other pressure was being applied to the EU...I don't know, say from the French and Spanish fishing industries? I wonder who would have had more sway in the EU decision making process? The French and Spanish fishing lobby or HFW and his 'not quite a million' signatures? Talk about a no-brainer issue anyway.

They have their reasons I have mine. I don't tell them where to get their funding they should not tell me how to vote. They stick to their way of life I stick to mine. Everyone's happy.

But that's NOT what's going on here.
Hawking isn't telling anyone how to vote (and IMO the other non-politicians aren't either).

People are voting for one of two different futures for this country - it's right that people do that with knowledge, and Hawking etc have been pointing out where the EU benefits the UK in areas that might not be obvious to all voters. It's up to individuals to make up their own mind on that info...

(and come on, the Brexiters have been vocal telling people to Vote Leave 😉 )

Whenever I've spoken to 'leave' voters and we've worked through their reasons for their vote..it's always ended up with concerns about Muslims and immigration. That appears to be the base of it.

[img] [/img]

edit - trying to be helpful with [img]
nice chart Ben 😉

That Nature editorial ^^ is worth reading

^^^ Just had some fun answering the above ...

Well, you've authored a great work of fiction, no wonder you enjoyed it. It's a pity though, because facts would be more useful, and your edits are somewhat light on those.

jambalaya - Member 
If you really believe that you are quite simply deluded tmh. Having the 1000's of pages of the various documents in front of you on a web page is one thing understanding how it really works is quite another.

I am with Boris, Gove, Hannan and all those in the Leave camp that share my view on how we will be obliged to pay up. Its all about the project or as Alex would say the dream. They won't allow that to die for the sake of a trillion euros.

Kind of sums up the whole debate.

My side of the argument: PRECEDENT plus FACTS contained in a legally binding arrangement

Your side of the argument: false/no representation of the past and "the word" of Bojo, Gove and Hannan

Sorry, who is deluded?

Not only that but the solution (sic) is worse than the status quo. You do make it up.

Remain paints us as idiots who are quasi-racist

Remain have played no part in this, hora

What happens if the referendum ends up with a 51-49 split for Remain, would that be considered a large enough margin to continue?

Currently on my 8th day visiting the UK, so far I have yet to meet a single person I know who is voting Remain, this is confusing me based on the feedback from here and reading the Guardian.

Also, is the Guardians reporting on this actually viral marketing for the upcoming Independence Day film, it certainly has an apocalyptic feel to it?

More interesting is if it's 55:45 to leave, is anyone actually going to invoke the terms of the Lisbon treaty and start the 2 year exit process? Who's going to do this, and when?

Currently on my 8th day visiting the UK, so far I have yet to meet a single person I know who is voting Remain, this is confusing me based on the feedback from here and reading the Guardian.

That's is interesting as I'm currently on my 43rd year in the UK and never met a single Brexit only those who post incorrect meme's on social media.

Maybe it means bog all about the people you meet.

It is very interesting how segregated the two camps are. Talking to university colleagues in the local city, they didn't take the leave campaign at all seriously, but round here in the villages full of retirees where I live it is very hard to find anyone admitting to vote remain (outside of a small coterie of enviro-radicals, and even many of them are undecided), nor have I seen a single poster from that camp. I saw more diversity in the last general election, even though I'm in the safest(?) tory seat in the country.

I know a few people who will be voting to leave the EU. None of them endorse Farage, Gove, Johnson etc in any way.

It is impressive the way the Leave side have turned government problems around to immigration.

Not enough GPs? It's not the government's fault for cutting health funding, it's the immigrants.

Housing too expensive? It's not restrictive planning laws and an economy built on a housing bubble, it's those pesky immigrants again.

No job? It's not the government's fault for not investing and growing the economy - yup, it's the immigrants' fault.

Currently on my 8th day visiting the UK, so far I have yet to meet a single person I know who is voting Remain, this is confusing me based on the feedback from here and reading the Guardian.

Although much is made of the age differences between voting intentions imo the starkest difference in voting intentions is based on social class.

For many affluent middle-class professional types who have been spared the worse excesses of the neoliberal experiment, and feel that life couldn't really get much better for them, maintaining the status quo obviously has its perceived attraction.

Unlike you and Drac I have come into contact with both those supporting remaining and those opposed to remaining.

Repeatedly I find that those supporting remain tend to be professional and affluent whilst those voting to leave are much further down the social scale, eg, building workers like myself.

EDIT : And obviously to answer your question STW and the Guardian have a disproportionate level of professional affluent types, especially the Guardian.

Here's a pithy response I discovered...

[url= http://songbytoad.com/2016/06/the-uk-is-a-nation-of-idiots/ ]Pith[/url]

^ I approve this pith.

You're right about the rich/poor divide according to the [url= http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2016/06/britain-s-eu-referendum ]Economist poll tracker[/url], Ernie, however, it's age that seems to have the most influence. Young in, old out. Jamba is rich but still votes out because of his advancing years. 😉

Ben if your replace "immigrants" with "English/Westminster" does it ring a bell?!? 😉

Good graphage from the FT....

[img] ?oh=788ac9b97fa722c6df14352b43eae600&oe=57D1EE58[/img]

I just feel that a lot of a people voting out have been led up the garden path by an absolute conman, whos been able to dictate our political agenda for far too long

[img] [/img]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-farage-and-brexit-flotilla-should-stop-blaming-brussels-for-fishing-industry-problems-a7083641.html

I just feel that a lot of a people voting out have been led up the garden path by an absolute conman, whos been able to dictate our political agenda for far too long

Cameron? Osbourne?

The list is endless 😉

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/13/brexit-supporters-leave-vote-right?CMP=share_btn_tw ]Interesting Gruaniad article[/url]

Polly Toynbee spends time with Labour call centre folk and a Labour MP in a staunchly labour constituency, and the message is clear: you can explain it as clearly and as factually as you like, but the immigration and £350 million lies have struck a chord.

We're doomed. 🙁

That was a laugh, Woppit but in a style that it criticises others for. People aren't so much idiots as pawns in a propaganda war. It's not by insulting people that you'll persuade them to give up the misinformation they've been feeding on.

Ben if your replace "immigrants" with "English/Westminster" does it ring a bell?!?

Touché 😉

Difference is, Westminster is actually in charge of stuff.

My FIL is voting out (Express reader, over 70) to keep Muslim terrorists out so we don't have another 7/7...........

The fact they were born in Birmingham and there are no Muslim countries in the EU is beyond ironic.