[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

@dannyh - Absolutely. We shouldn't have ever made it an option.

I'm surprised no one has done a poll yet to see what it looks like now compared to a week ago. Sure it must be coming though

My God, have you seen Osbourne in the Commons. He looks dead!

I don't think he took the weekend off to play cricket or piss around with on-the-side jobs.

Just read a 'top constitutional lawyer' is claiming that in order to evoke article 50 we need an act of parliament – so all MPs have to vote on it, I can’t see that passing?

I can't see MPs voting with the whip if they don't want to but how would it go down with constituents' if they went against the result of the referendum?

Bit like getting caned by the Headmaster - we might not like it at the time but in the long run we turned out the better for it? And the Headmaster won't have enjoyed it either but knows it had to be done.

I don't think he took the weekend off to play cricket or piss around with on-the-side jobs.

Someone's got to try to sort this mess out.

I've not played cricket in five years and have a dodgy knee, but I could bowl pretty quick - I wouldn't have minded having an over at Boris.

I'd have had a few choice sledges at him from behind the stumps. Now, it was never my style to make sledges abusive or personal, more like casual observations on their cricketing prowess and / or state of mind.

For Boris - bets would be off.

I'd have had a few choice sledges at him from behind the stumps. Now, it was never my style to make sledges abusive or personal, more like casual observations on their cricketing prowess and / or state of mind.

For Boris - bets would be off.

We only need nine more players - maybe this is an easier way to sort this out - no need for 100,000 signatures - all we need to do is put an XI together and arrange a fixture.

Just in case my knee gives way, do we know what Brett Lee thinks about Brexit?

You'd need to get your sledges in quick, though - I wasn't planning on using up more than three deliveries - and my chosen mode of dismissal would be "retired hurt", or "hit wicket" depending on the exact timing, if you get my drift.

Bit like getting caned by the Headmaster - we might not like it at the time but in the long run we [s]turned out the better for it?[/s] now gladly pay a high-class dominatrix to do the same.

A metaphor that works on many levels 😉

I've come to the conclusion, all things considered. That pig probably had more friends than Dave realised.

There were also other older folks who were saying that the didn't really understand the issues but voted leave to get the boot into (mostly now-dead) politicians from the EU vote 40 years ago. None of them seemed to have any real idea on what they were voting for and how it might impact them financially.

I'm surprised how fed up all of a sudden I am with it all. Everyone has gone septic at each other and there is more uncertainty than ever. It's a tiresome mess.

France and Germany Have said no Deal till Article 50 is triggered.

I'm surprised how fed up all of a sudden I am with it all. Everyone has gone septic at each other and there is more uncertainty than ever. It's a tiresome mess.

It's made me think some things I would never have anticipated.

I walked through a typical depressing market town centre on Saturday and found myself looking at people and thinking things like.

"Yeah, bet you voted out"

Snapped out of it after a while as it was totally futile, and prejudice is a dangerous emotion to allow into your psyche.

Where's bloody Morgan Freeman when you need him?

Telling everybody not to panic and assuring us that what we pay for a loaf of bread today will be the same as we pay for it tomorrow?

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"Yeah, bet you voted out"

I saw that clip of the thick woman who voted to leave but was disappointed with the result. I felt genuine anger, thinking you daft cow, you have cancelled out my vote. I took it quite personally.

Telling everybody not to panic and assuring us that what we pay for a loaf of bread today will be the same as we pay for it tomorrow?

I saw that clip of the thick woman who voted to leave but was disappointed with the result. I felt genuine anger, thinking you daft cow, you have cancelled out my vote. I took it quite personally.

You're right to feel anger, but you can't take it personally - that's the key thing to remaining sane through this circus.

If you start to take it personally you then start to think "what could I have done?"

Other than voting the right way, not a lot.

In the New Britain ignorance is power.

Have any of the Leave politicians tried this one yet?

As Andrew Marr put it, claiming that the international devaluation of the pound didn't matter was ludicrous and immediately seen to be ludicrous.

Given the mental abilities of a the population today, I think it might be worth a crack this time around.

Quite a few people saying about "oh, accept democracy".
This is nowhere even close to being democratic.

C'mon - we have just had a relatively large turnout in a referendum that has stimulated huge debate. Just because the result is crap, doesnt make it undemocratic.

Asking a woolly question

Wooly??? 😯

Should the UK remain as a member of the EU or leave the EU - if people are struggling with this then god help us. Its a very simple. direct question.

of an uneducated (and politically disenfranchised) group of people with no clear terms (ie is it legally binding, does there have to be a 2/3rds majority, is it simply an opinion poll?) which then gets hijacked by the right-wing tabloids with a mixture of fear, scaremongering, lies, spin and deceit reaches a level of interest probably completely unplanned for and then having absolutely zero plan for either outcome is hardly democratic.

why is that different from any election? if people cant be arsed to inform themselves then it is their look out. Yes, its a bit of a mess but we cant complain about democracy.

Our forthcoming PM, claimed this morning that calm had returned to the currency markets showing yet again that the truth doesn't matter in Bojoland

#posttruthpolitics

[I]If it comes to this I can't see MPs voting with the whip if they don't want to but how would it go down with constituents' if they went against the result of the referendum[/I]

It'd be a bit hard to 'whip' the vote since Whips job is on party lines, and the vote (if there was one) would be cross-party vote.

If there is a vote I can only imagine that the Leave MP's would vote for it and the rest would abstain.

If you wanted to devise some kind of experiment to perfectly demonstrate how modern politics isn't functioning properly, then you'd be pretty hard pressed to come up with anything that could possibly trump this sorry shambles

Binners, haven't you long been campaigning for the 'real people' to stand up and bite the arses of the Westminster elite?

Or as a new fan of Osborne 😉 have you changed your mind? 😉

Well, this is what you get. Law of unintended consequences and all that....time to live with the results it brings

Just came across this on another forum:
"I think a straight referendum on such a potentially catastrophic matter should never be held - ask Joe Public and you get Boaty McBoatface".

they have not bit the westminster elite they have punched themself in the face and they are too stupid to realise this

they have not bit the westminster elite they have punched themself in the face and they are too stupid to realise this

Maybe they have. BoJo is probably doomed as a PM. Corbyn isn't looking too clever. Cameron gone. Osbourne too maybe. Nobody coming out of this smelling of roses in the commons.

Just read a 'top constitutional lawyer' is claiming that in order to evoke article 50 we need an act of parliament – so all MPs have to vote on it,

It isn't - we have just had an advisory referendum. That's all. We shall see if it amounts to the same thing...

Should the UK remain as a member of the EU or leave the EU - if people are struggling with this then god help us. Its a very simple. direct question.

Only one of the options, Remain, is well defined.

It's like having a general election by saying "do you want the Conservatives to remain in power?" and having no control over whether you get UKIP or the Green party instead.

If the vote had included the alternative options for leaving the EU as well, I suspect Remain would have had a clear victory.

Horatio Remain isn't clear, what is going to happen to the euro, what is going to happen with further integration, what will our budget contribution be ?

We got downgraded by one rating lot on Friday, when the other 2 follow what will happen to out bond rates for any new borrowing?

No we did not get downgraded, Moody's changed the outlook on our debt, rather more wishy washy. I'd rather be long Gilts than Euro Govt Debt

Horatio Remain isn't clear, what is going to happen to the euro, what is going to happen with further integration, what will our budget contribution be ?

Jambas - a lack of clarity play right into your hands #posttruthpolitics 😉

HH - so what did you expect? Can you imagine giving the people a range of options - even juste the three Treasury alternatives and expecting them to digest that, when they have juts shown an inability to distinguish between fact and fiction in a much simpler exercise.

GrahamS - Member
You think it would have been a different story of the result had gone the other way? You think Leave and UKIP would have said "Ooh close one, but well played. We'll disband immediately and throw our full weight into a united EU".

Because I don't:

Not that I think that means we should have a second referendum. We all knew the rules when we started and it would fly in the face of democracy.

[b]Besides we've farted now and everyone in the room can smell it - it's too late to try to unfart.[/b]

Just in case anyone missed it GrahamS wins today.

So Article 50 definitely needs to get through parliament? We're safe then cos surely it wouldn't...?

I know the voters have voted etc. but the Ebbw Vale media coverage:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/view-wales-town-showered-eu-cash-votes-leave-ebbw-vale

really does remind me of this this:

You've got to laugh....

Farrage claimed that this was a victory of ordinary people over the merchant banks etc...

...meanwhile the hedgies make out like bandits on their short £ positions and ordinary people will lose their jobs etc

Some victory....

So Article 50 definitely needs to get through parliament? We're safe then cos surely it wouldn't...?

So:

Leave proposals to be voted on in parliament before A50 gets used. Each proposal gets voted down, causing the whole thing to fizzle out, effectively filibustering it forever.

Binners, haven't you long been campaigning for the 'real people' to stand up and bite the arses of the Westminster elite?

Well replacing one group of Tories with a far more right wing mob, who will now set about dismantling human rights and employment law, all while the labour party implodes at the very time its never been more needed, isn't really sticking it too the man , is it?

Though if you want to lose all hope for the future of this country, head along to the Corbynistas favourite Facebook page 'Red Labour'. The detachment from reality of the labour Corbyn die-hards, who appear to be inhabiting a 6th form common room in Islington, has to be seen to be believed. They think the latest developments are going to usher in some sort of socialist revolution.

Yeah, well good luck with that.....

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Well replacing one group of Tories with a far more right wing mob, who will now set about dismantling human rights and employment law, all while the labour party implodes at the very time its never been more needed, isn't really sticking it too the man , is it?

Indeed it isn't. Why do you think they did it?

All very odd to me......'real people' huh 😉

All very odd to me......'real people' huh

Indeed...

So if a50 needs to go through Parliament does that mean it needs the queen's consent? So could lizzy bin it then abdicate and leave chaz to clear up the mess. Take that commoners, your unelected undemocratic head of state has over ruled you.

I'd really like to think that could happen, Molgrips. My fear is that ignoring the out win would lead to the far right gaining enough extreme support to organise some kind of political coup or serious civil unrest. Blood on the streets and all that, terribly un-British I know. "F... off Europe we're voting out" is what the hooligans in Marseille were chanting. Now try telling them that they voted out, won, but those nice be-suited people in Westminster are keeping them in.

With Her Majesties Government now effectively leaderless and Her Majesties Official Opposition in meltdown, how long before our monarch turns to the UKs third largest party to steer the country in these troubles times?

Of course, Nicola isn't an MP (and has her hands full already), so she'd have to nominate another SNP MP to take over at Westminster. She'd need to choose someone who had the trust of the country, was representative of ALL the people, had gravitas, had a proven leadership record, someone that foreign governments would recognise as a true statesman.

Frankly, there can be only one.
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[url= http://www.joe.co.uk/news/the-exact-moment-that-this-sky-news-presenter-realised-how-****ed-we-are/69317 ]for the haters appently there is a plan....[/url]

oh wait...no there isn't...

Did I actually hear Boris claim earlier that both pound and markets were steady? Is he on drugs?

they have not bit the westminster elite they have punched themself in the face and they are too stupid to realise this

This many times....

RBS has gone from 250p to 178p since Thursday. It has a market cap of £20B (£29B last week), and we all (via the government) own about 73% of it.

So we are all today about ~£100 worse off - every man, woman and child just through RBS.

oldnpastit - I'm sure its all part of the plan to make Britain great again and we shouldn't be at all concerned...

RBS has gone from 250p to 178p since Thursday. It has a market cap of £20B (£29B last week), and we all (via the government) own about 73% of it. So we are all today about ~£100 worse off - every man, woman and child just through RBS.

A large proportion of brexiteers think the EU is an undemocratic Neo-Liberal organization and that "Bankers" should be taxed out of the country. £100 will seem a very small price for what they regard as sticking it to the 'Bankers'.

Molgrips Leave plan does not [b]have[/b] to go through Parliament. Firstly its impracticable to discuss openly an ongoing negotiation and we are not going to complete a whole negotiation before triggering Article 50. Someone is going to have to make a decision and just crack on with it. Parliament doesn't even have to vote on triggering Article 50

I heard it quoted in Parliament today that up to 70,000 city jobs could be at risk. Interesting as we must have lost 250,000 in last 8 years not least as a result of the tough it mustn't happen again regulatory changes so even if that was true its small beer really. Edit: yes and as above sticking to the bankers was the idea no ?

Molgrips Leave plan does not have to go through Parliament.

Source?

I don't know otherwise, but I'd like some solid facts.

I'll leave you to google it, either way. My comments based on my understanding of how our Parliament works, Referendum a clear mandate and Cameron said he would trigger it asap

I heard it quoted in Parliament today that up to 70,000 city jobs could be at risk. Interesting as we must have lost 250,000 in last 8 years

Please provide a link for 250 000 city jobs lost in the last 8 years please, Jamba.

[quote=jambalaya ]Molgrips Leave plan does not have to go through Parliament. Firstly its impracticable to discuss openly an ongoing negotiation and we are not going to complete a whole negotiation before triggering Article 50. This was surely the problem with the whole Leave proposition. Those in favour of leaving the EU should have requested a referendum to be held only once all the negotiations had been completed and details made available to the public so that an informed choice could be made.

I think from what I have been reading that Parliament is required to repeal the 1972 European Communities Act as it is law and can only be undone with a vote.

IANAEUL

My comments based on my understanding of how our Parliament works

A quick pull of the Article 50 trigger is unlikely to be feasible under the UK’s constitutional arrangements and may well not be desirable for any UK Government or Parliament, even one committed to eventual withdrawal from the EU.

Brexit is the most important decision that has faced the United Kingdom in a generation and it has massive constitutional and economic ramifications. In our constitution, Parliament gets to make this decision, not the Prime Minister.

This was surely the [s]problem with [/s] strength of the whole Leave proposition.

Fixed that for you.

If the leave campaign had campaigned for joining (say) the EEA they'd have lost.

No we did not get downgraded

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36644934 ]You were saying, Jam?[/url]

When I think of the Leave plan for Brexit.....I think of this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/36642662#video-36642662

The above confirms the whole remain campain

Referendum a clear mandate and Cameron said he would trigger it asap

The above confirms the whole remain campain

In what regard?

Also, despite all of the best possible efforts to dumb down the likely effects of Brexit (big scary red lines going downwards on graphs, that kind of thing), no notice was taken, either out of willful ignorance or genuine ignorance.

It is quite difficult to produce a big print guide to why torpedoing your own economy is a bad idea without sounding patronising. They even trotted out Beckham in an effort to engage. What else would have worked, Bungle, George and Zippy with a rainbow-coloured graph? Oh no, the rainbow flag is associated with gay pride. Bad idea, then.

One good thing that might come out of this is increased focus on education funding to at least equip people with ability to grasp basic concepts.

Meanwhile the satire industry announces 1,000 jobs are to go, announcing:

"We've had to give up, because this shit is now writing itself, and it is way dafter than anything we can come up with".

Pleasing to see that my home town has more of a plan than the government...

[url= http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/sheffield-looks-to-china-for-investment-after-eu-referendum-brexit-vote-1-7983742 ]linky[/url]

Cameron actually said he would start to take steps. Can anyone find any credible source disputing the constitutional lawyers who argue strongly that a vote in the commons is require?

[quote=nick1962 ]I find it rich that those who spend so much time on here berating the political elite for being out of touch with real people now want that same political elite to reverse and overrule what real people have voted for.

There's a difference between being out of touch so not doing things to help real people and ignoring turkeys voting for christmas

no notice was taken, either out of willful ignorance or genuine ignorance.

Having a chat now on FB with members of my family, saying that 'the experts should've come out and explained it all'....

Meanwhile the satire industry announces 1,000 jobs are to go, announcing:

"We've had to give up, because this shit is now writing itself, and it is way dafter than anything we can come up with".

John Oliver's piece on this consisted of simply explaining what had happened. That was enough.

Pah, who needs experts. We've got the Sun and Fail...

dannybgoode - problem is the Chinese are now saying that due to not having access to the European market Britain is not as attractive a place to invest. They may be bluffing - but why would they?

And I quote Daniel Hannan just a few minutes ago:

No-one on the leave side doesn’t want free trade with Europe,” prominent pro-leave MEP Daniel Hannan just said on BBC News.

As far as Europe goes, it should be possible to stay inside an arrangement with the EU with bilateral deals, which would allow for free movement, but what we will not have are foreign courts deciding who can come into the UK.

---
So why did people vote to leave again?...

The Remain campaign did not get a message across that spoke to the larger voting public that addressed the concern(s) they have/had.

I think genesis that is the issue. They should have dumbed down the economic argument from international trade deals etc to the cost of a holiday to Benidorm.

The immigration argument to 'so you want to get up at 5am to go fruit picking etc'.

Would have resonated far more

People voted to leave due to a belief about immigration - rightly or wrongly

Anyway the meal deal at the sandwhich shop next to work had risen from £3.95 on Friday to £4.95 today !!!! #CostOfBrexit

Having a chat now on FB with members of my family, saying that 'the experts should've come out and explained it all'....

I thought people in this country had had enough of experts?

(You really couldn't make this stuff up).

I do hope, oh so much that the deal thats struck is access to the single market, because it quite clearly as seen in the markets is that important, but with the continued free movement as the compromise.

Well, at least we got our 'identity' back hey.

So Hannan wants all the good things but doesnt want to pay his share. Typical politicians.

France, Holland, Italy, Austria, Finland, Hungary, Portugal, and Slovakia all appear to be considering referendums .. (Ipsos Mori Poll)

linky?

@mike you'll be sleeping but S&P have downgraded the UK, theynwhere the outlier as the other agencies tookmaway the AAA a while ago. This will make no difference imo as many investors take the "lowest of" when it comes to credit ratings. Also as noted previously rates are already lower on a flight to quality, ie investors buying more government debt