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@gordi yes exactly, as per the Guardian video in the potteries. When we try and discuss issues like immigration on here over the last 4 years all that comes back os "swivel eyed far right loon". The UK and the EU have had the warning signs for years and have ignored the issue. If we vote Leave and the EU collapses as it well might they will have only themselves to blame.
@ben, uncontrolled immigration makes all those things worse, thats the point. This government and everyone before it is spending more on health than ever before. If we had controlled immigration we could plan for housing and health and this fully cost immigration and make sure the immigrants are paying for these things or we understand that cheap farm labour might be cheap for the farmer but is potentially expensive for the country. Its easier for other countries as they don't have an NHS in the same way, you have to buy your health insurance. We have a situation where someone can come and earn £10k and pay not a penny but is entitled to in-work benefits and health care. If we don't LEAVE imho we need to revise our whole welfare system so its contributory as per France etc
@tmh a focus on "facts" is far too simplistic, you cannot predict the future and call it a fact, interpretingbthe past and present is hard enough. What you can so is look at the past and do that with the caveat that the past is likely to be different to the future. As for rescues and bailouts, I spent 20 years looking at bank sub-debt, its quite clear its subordinated to senior debt and senior to equity. That is except when the government decides to ignore the documentation and do what it wants. We've even had examples where senior debt has been prejudiced but equity has not been written off. Where a government (or supra-national body) has a will there is a way.
I see the BBC are covering a story that Germany believes a Brexit could threaten the whole EU. BINGO. That's why everyone wants us to stay. Its nothig to do with what's best for the UK but what's best for them.
@tmh a focus on "facts" is far too simplistic, you cannot predict the future and call it a fact, interpretingbthe past and present is hard enough. What you can so is look at the past and do that with the caveat that the past is likely to be different to the future
How convenient as the past exposes most of leaves message as lies but ignoring that you can predict your future which is best u we can't predict ours as you don't like it?
I see the BBC are covering a story that Germany believes a Brexit could threaten the whole EU. BINGO. That's why everyone wants us to stay. Its nothig to do with what's best for the UK but what's best for them.
They're hardly going to want us to stay because it's in our best interests but against theirs, are they? Who the heck ISN'T going to vote for what they think is in their own best interests (apart from you :P) ?
I can see how the banking crisis came about now with people like jambalaya working in the industry. The term 'fact' seems to be completely arbitrary, if you don't like one you can just dismiss it as nonsense and then make up your own ones to replace it. Very similar attitude to risk pricing debt, just change sub prime to AAA and sell it on....
@pondo and @kimbers - let me try and help you out
Immigration is a real issue, people see it and feel it's impact EVERYDAY. They feel it as a real issue so it is a real issue. It is absolutely not an issue made up by politicains or the media. Leave campaign is responding to what the people want, wake up and smell the coffee.
It could have been dealt with by the EU, it is out of our control, but it was not. Today we see the consequences in this Referendum and throughout Europe. Austria votes 50.3 v 49.7, Germans set fire to refugee centres and march in their 10'000's every week, Front Nationale will replace Hollande's socialists in next years French Presidential elections
In my humble opinion this whole issue has been a classic example of failing to deal with a significant issue as its "too difficult" only to find, surprise surprise the situation gets worse not better.
@ben, uncontrolled immigration makes all those things worse, thats the point. This government and everyone before it is spending more on health than ever before.
There is no evidence the two are related at all.
The UK population is getting older and we're living longer, which is why health care costs will rise. Most immigrants are young and healthy and don't cost the NHS much at all.
It seems a lot of Brits are now wiling to admit they were duped into supporting the invasion of Iraq and then continuing to support the war because "we must support the troops".
If there's an out vote I think many will be feeling the same way in a few years time.
If there's an out vote I think many will be feeling the same way in a few years time.
The difference being we'll have shat in our own bed this time....
@footflaps you don't have the faintest idea who I am. Also the financial crises was about a whole lot more than the "banking industry" not least ludicrously lax regulation and governments turning a blind eye (note German state controlled banks where some of the worst offenders). I would have gone straight for credit controls, no mortgage without a deposit or full income verification, cap on credit card debt etc. Basic stuff that they have in many other countries. The UK banks which failed where all regional wannabees.
As an aside the soveriegn debt crises (eg Greece etc) has pretty much ZERO to do with the banking industry and is all about governments and frankly short sighted voters. The sovereign debt crises is going to make the 2007/8 credit crises look like a sunny day at the park.
There is no evidence the two are related at all.
That has proven to be a totally ineffective argument as it doesn't reflect what people see with their own eyes every day
So I should be increasing my exposure to non-Euro zone shares and decreasing my exposure to sovereign debt. That's a useful prediction, thanks, Jamba.
That has proven to be a totally ineffective argument as it doesn't reflect what people see with their own eyes every day
Again, that isn't even remotely true. What they see with their own eyes everyday, in a hospital, is a very diverse ethnic staff treating mainly old white british people.
What they read in the Daily Express is that the whole countries infrastructure has been overrun by immigrants.
The two are very different things....
@footflaps you don't have the faintest idea who I am
Completely deranged springs to mind.....
If immigration is uncontrolled, why are people hiding in the back of lorries?
Currently on my 8th day visiting the UK, so far I have yet to meet a single person I know who is voting Remain, this is confusing me based on the feedback from here and reading the Guardian.
People I know voting out:
- My girlfriend's PhD educated, small business owning boss and her PhD educated husband. Both under 40. I think the other people who work there are also voting out.
- My girlfriend's funny-with-money and working-class Yorkshire parents (>70 years old), brother (36), aunt and uncle (both over 70, I think).
People I know who are voting in:
- Pretty much everyone I'm friends with on facebook (or so it would seem) the vast majority of whom are aged ?35 are university educated. In particular, the most vocal are the ones who either live overseas, are from overseas or have spouse/family from overseas.
(A notable exception to this is a gay, racist hairdresser who I slightly regret being facebook friends with)
- My old (>65) white, upper middle class parents. They can't remember the war, but can remember the aftermath, and I think this is the prime reason for voting in.
That has proven to be a totally ineffective argument as it doesn't reflect what people see with their own eyes every day
So evidence is wrong if that's what you believe? Like religion then, disagree and your off to hell?
@pondo and @kimbers - let me try and help you outImmigration is a real issue, people see it and feel it's impact EVERYDAY. They feel it as a real issue so it is a real issue. It is absolutely not an issue made up by politicains or the media. Leave campaign is responding to what the people want, wake up and smell the coffee.
It could have been dealt with by the EU, it is out of our control, but it was not. Today we see the consequences in this Referendum and throughout Europe. Austria votes 50.3 v 49.7, Germans set fire to refugee centres and march in their 10'000's every week, Front Nationale will replace Hollande's socialists in next years French Presidential elections
In my humble opinion this whole issue has been a classic example of failing to deal with a significant issue as its "too difficult" only to find, surprise surprise the situation gets worse not better.
Thanks, it'll be a sad day when I need help from you. 🙂
I know we've been over this a million times but immigration is a net benefit to this country and the pressures on infrastructure and housing, such as they are, are self-inflicted.
Currently on my 8th day visiting the UK, so far I have yet to meet a single person I know who is voting Remain
Are you only attending UKIP rallies
but immigration is a net benefit to this country and the pressures on infrastructure and housing, such as they are, are self-inflicted.
Yes, but those are just established facts and thus can be completely discounted in jambaland as being completely and utterly incorrect.
Which just proves that all immigrants are unequivocally bad under all circumstances...
I'm starting think he's the love child of Donald Trump and Nigel Farrage....
Sighhhhh it's much resort to blame foreigners Pondo
That has proven to be a totally ineffective argument as it doesn't reflect what people see with their own eyes every day
There's good evidence that amongst white brits negative attitudes to immigration are inversely correlated with the amount of immigrants who live in their area. That is, more immigrants, less anti-immigrant feeling amongst the natives.
I suspect that this is actually a function of economics. That is, immigrants generally don't move to economically deprived/depressed areas, they move to thriving economic centres like London or Manchester. Part (imo a large part) of anti-immigrant sentiment is that they're used as a scapegoat for all the nation's ills, so places which have more ills have more anti-immigrants sentiment. OTOH it could be because people who don't like immigrants move away or otherwise avoid areas with high levels of immigration.
That has proven to be a totally ineffective argument as it doesn't reflect what people [s]see with their own eyes[/s]are told by the Murdoch machine every day
FTFY
That has proven to be a totally ineffective argument
he also forgot that he presented it as an established fact only 3 posts earlier...
So we now have a deranged, amnesiac love child of Farrage / Trump.
@jambayla - of course, having control of the numbers entering the country is important. Sadly however, I have heard far too often now that immigration control is about keeping out Muslims because the Koran states they want to take over the world and their coming here to take over, change our laws and take over the world. All words I have heard from people on the leave side. Whether you like it or not, the discourse from the likes of the Mail has incited hatred and fear towards Muslims. That is why many people call it a racist vote.
That is why many people call it a racist vote.
Nothing to do with the leave campaign being borderline racist then.
jambalaya - Member
There is no evidence the two are related at all.
That has proven to be a totally ineffective argument as it doesn't reflect what people see with their own eyes every day
The sun goes round the earth. I see it every day with my own eyes. 🙄
@ben, uncontrolled immigration makes all those things worse, thats the point
Except it isn't, see below...*
@tmh a focus on "facts" is far too simplistic,
Well that explains the VL approach perfectly (explains * p1 too)
you cannot predict the future and call it a fact, interpretingbthe past and present is hard enough.
Agreed.
What you can so is look at the past
Hence the long lots of unanswered questions. Your team lie about the past and the present - consistently and blatantly - and have poorly thought through (it at all) ideas about the future.
Here's one chance to prove me wrong - answer the simple question about the nature of our past financial support for Greece.
As for rescues and bailouts, I spent 20 years looking at bank sub-debt, its quite clear its subordinated to senior debt and senior to equity. That is except when the government decides to ignore the documentation and do what it wants. We've even had examples where senior debt has been prejudiced but equity has not been written off. Where a government (or supra-national body) has a will there is a way.
As above, please remind us all how the UK financing worked in the past and what the EU has legally committed to in the future. Simple historic facts.
I agree that immigration is a real issue which is why it deserves to be dealt with accurately and honestly. Something the BSers have found impossible to do.
Shameful.
Simple historic facts.
You do know facts have been outlawed in jambaland? They have been replaced by 'opinion' which is considered to be a higher truth.
Not sure if we've done this, but I think it bears repeating at this point:
Not sure if we've done this, but I think it bears repeating at this point:
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-8697821.html ]It's not just the EU and immigration we're wrong about.[/url] The thing that always gets me about these sort of surveys is that the direction of travel is always so bloody predictable, i.e. people are always wrong in a way that fits with the right-wing press's agenda. On immigration, people think that there are more immigrants taking a higher proportion of benefits, because it suits the media that people would believe that. On crime, people think that the country is a vastly more crime-ridden place than it is because the media would prefer us to be afraid of our fellow citizens. On welfare recipients, people believe that the amount of fraud is vastly more than it is, because the media and their paymasters want to cut the welfare state. Et cetera, et cetera.
Farage "immigration has called all the problems"
Cameron/ Osbourne "no it was us we just hid behind immigration when it suited us"
Like the way Labour are saying we need controls on freedom of movement! FFS bit self defeating that, if I wanted controls on freedom of movement I know which way I'd vote.
You do know facts have been outlawed in jambaland? They have been replaced by 'opinion' which is considered to be a higher truth.
😆
Sadly its also true that they do this
@junkyard
[/quoteAre you only attending UKIP rallies
I'm beginning to think so 🙂
Just staying with my parents and visiting friends and family, m8x of professionals, working class (sister is a cleaner etc) and retirees.
stewartc - MemberCurrently on my 8th day visiting the UK, so far I have yet to meet a single person I know who is voting Remain, this is confusing me based on the feedback from here and reading the Guardian.
Predominately "out" in my pub, though I did catch a few of my regulars comparing home made tattoos the other day.
Make of that what you will. 😆
Surprisingly it's the eldest of my customers that are leaning towards remain, quoting fears over pension values.
Interesting video: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/jun/16/lets-talk-about-immigration-eu-referendum-video
The UKIP guy does nail it with a new class war between poor and rich, poor being mainly out....
[i]The UKIP guy does nail it with a new class war between poor and rich, poor being mainly out.... [/i]
And how many of the poor are poor because they're, to put it plainly, thick - consequently they're unable to actually understand facts and work out the consequences of those facts?
And how many of the poor are poor because they're, to put it plainly, thick - consequently they're unable to actually understand facts and work out the consequences of those facts?
In their defence the likes of Murdoch and the Barclay Brothers etc have been feeding them lies 24/7 for several years now....
Its not all about those pesky immigrants, brexits economic policy has finally broken cover:
[url=
we go.[/url]
Its not all about those pesky immigrants
You sure?
[img] 
[/img]
The UKIP guy does nail it with a new class war between poor and rich, poor being mainly out....And how many of the poor are poor because they're, to put it plainly, thick - consequently they're unable to actually understand facts and work out the consequences of those facts?
So in summing up then leave the thickos here to fester in their own cider or till the benefits run out and move to europe? with the rich posh folks.
I guess post Brexit we will clamour to leave the European Space Agency.
Our space programme will then consist of a very tall ladder.
Our Hadron Collider will consist of watching atoms in a cement mixer.
It will be shit but hey it's a purely plucky 100 % English affair.
The certainty of staying in the EU is worse than the uncertainty of leaving the EU ..
Farage has only went and gone full Hitler:
[url= https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7284/27631948361_62d5b1c0ee_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7284/27631948361_62d5b1c0ee_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
On the left: an actual Nazi propaganda film
On the right: Nigel Farage, today
Will be interesting in a few years time to see how many of the bad things that were predicted to happen (for both staying and leaving) actually happen as a result of the U.K. staying or leaving.
It seems to me that immigration is really a non-issue and the EU fee is also really a non-issue as it is such a small proportion of the economy as a whole. Trade tarrifs and free movement are also not an issue, we can just go with the WTO tarrifs.
So it is really whether we want to eventually be subsumed into the EU federal state or not.
On the Paxman documentary there was a section where Cameron was talking to some other EU leader, and Merkel came in to the room and went straight up to the guy Cameron was talking to and shook his hand, effectively ignoring Cameron completely. I think that says it all.
You sure?
You do realise that was a joke?
But since you are posting graphs, all that has pointed out is that some tory and and pretty much given all ukip supporters are concerned about immigration.
The certainty of staying in the EU is worse than the uncertainty of leaving the EU ..
Cryptic...