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So what does remain propose we do about Greece? It will default at some point, either that or extensions will be continually granted. The Greek people can't keep living in austerity forever.
So what do we do about Greece?
So what does Brexit propose we do about Greece? It will default at some point, either that or extensions will be continually granted. The Greek people can't keep living in austerity forever.
So what do we do about Greece?
Brexit do a out Greece? Clues in the 'exit'.
Here's the tracker
http://www.ft.com/ig/sites/2015/greek-debt-monitor/
Nice link hora, it shows the Greeks are meeting their debt repayments and have no overdue debts.
So what does Brexit propose we do about Greece?
Run through the town square wearing a chicken costume screaming PANIC!
MSP - incorrect assessment. Only meeting repayments thanks to extend and pretend. Corollary of being prevented from defaulting is most severe recession/depression, and massive unemployment.
They really do have something to blame the EU about!
Sorry can I have that in sense?Brexit do a out Greece? Clues in the 'exit'.
this "point"[ I assume you are trying to make] has been covered LOADS all our "liabilities" to them are from the IMF and not the EU. Either way our "liability" is the same whether we stay or leave as we are outside the EZ and have no liabilities to the EZ.
it shows the Greeks are meeting their debt repayments and have no overdue debts
SP - incorrect assessment. Only meeting repayments
THis thread gets worse by the day by election day we will just be headbutting keyboards and posting that
Hi, next half a billion repayment due soon. This is an extra cost to ongoing cuts and savings that need to be met
There also news items that'll never repay it's debt
Junkyard - not sure of your point. Mine was that you need to be aware of what has happened to the stock of Greek debt before you assert that it is 'up to date'. I accept though that a graph can show whatever you want it to.
IMF point not really the complete story either.
When Albanian etc join and they need funds, economic development, favourable trade deals to attract manufacturing/production away from other EU countries how do you explain more money going from other member countries to build/create these economies?
Hora - it could be beneficial to us. Their economies develop and their purchasing power increases such that our high value exports become attractive to them. We don't loose much because they fill gaps where we don't operate efficiently - comparative advantage.
Bigger risk IMHO is that no development of the Albanian economy occurs, and all their valuable people simply brain drain to the UK.
It's a bit misleading to ask what we are going to do about Greece. The funds lent to Greece went directly from Greece to Greek and International banks, leaving Greece with additional debt.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/31/business/bailout-money-goes-to-greece-only-to-flow-out-again.html?_r=0
What concerns me about this thread is no-one has asked the fundamental question; does your bike choice affect your voting?
Own up; are you-
A Transatlantic lover of liberalised economic boutique (Santa Cruz/yeti/spesh/RM) etc?
Fan of the upstart, eurozone protected bargain Eurobikez? (Cube, Lapierre, Canyon...)
Honest-to-goodness, none of that foreign muck Patriot? (Orange, Cotic, Stanton, Whyte?)
MSP the Greeks are meeting their debt repayments as the interest rate in virtually zero and most importantly they are borrowing more money to pay the bill. They are not really repaying anything, the debt is getting bigger (note they have been refunded interest they have paid so its not getting that much worse in reality)
The Greek problem will imo most likely be kicked down the road to 2018 purely for the reason that the French and Germans have elections in 2017. Then their debt will be rescheduled, this means formally admitting that a big chunk 50%(?) will never be paid back. Its been a gift. Now the bigger issue and armageddon scenario is that the Greek government well aware of the 2017 elections come back to play hardball, refuse to play ball on austerity and force a default stand off ahead of the elections. Now Merkel and Hollande are ****ed big time as they will not want o admit they've gifted €150bn of their tax payers money to Greece, at this point there is melt-down, contagion to Italy and Spain and the Germans and French ensure an EU bailout is everyone's responsibility to protect the whole EU dream (their pet project). Also practically why would they take €150bn on the chin when they can ensure the pain is shared
Johhny 🙂 One Transition one Cotic lots of Hope kit, foot in both camps
Yes, it's possible, but nowhere near as easy.
@Horatio, yes I understand that. I think it should NOT be easy.
If we need widget turners or farm labourers lets take the best ones or trade that access for something else we want.
Junky no one is publically suggesting that strategy so as not to inflame the situation, but lets wait and see. I think its a goer 🙂 (I thought it upmall on my own)
Anyway just finished singing the Marseilles (always amuses mrs B I know all the words and she doesn't) - alles les blues
The ownership of that debt isn't that simple. I read a article a while ago that shows its very complex.
In addition Greece is meeting current repayments becuase they are implementating huge austerity measures. The Greek public won't stand for this medium turn. Would you? Your current buys jets and nuclear subs on tick for what reason? Thanks Germany they say..
They WILL default.
Hora correct they will got bust, they are only meeting the debt repayments as they are being lent more money, the conditon for lending them more money is they get their budget in order (austerity)
Greece is bust already. People have known that since 2009.
The Greek people have a choice austerity or leaving the euro. Even if they leave the euro they have to have austerity.
Run through the town square wearing a chicken costume screaming PANIC!
And they are off.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/05/04/is-greece-just-weeks-away-from-another-debt-crisis/
I wonder how Dave would answer these With a doll like sounbites?
^^^ Indeed hora and the Greeks have €100bn of German taxpayers money and 75bn of French never mind all the small countries in the EU and all the members of the IMF (us included)
What's worse for Germany is the smaller EU countries aren't stupid they have borrowed their loan commitments from the ECB and if Greece doesn't pay they won't repay the ECB. A right buggars muddle.
The Greek people have a choice austerity or leaving the euro. Even if they leave the euro they have to have austerity.
Brilliant jambyism there
😆
My major concern is that without some pretty detailed reciprocal agreements we may end up restricting access to new medicines more than nice are now.
Having a single medicines regulator and manufacturing guidelines helps my industry massively. Having to register twice, once for the uk and once for Europe will delay stuff as the mhra has bugger all funding as it is so having to review all applications rather than them going to a much larger regulator is going to delay access to life saving medicines
Someone came up with a great idea. If you don't have the time/inclination to find out all the facts about the EU referendum (I don't blame you) and are possibly unsure which way to vote, perhaps knowing how other notable people are thinking could help out.
Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:
• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECD
Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:
• Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
• A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
• The guy who was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
• Leader of UKIP
• BNP
• Britain First
• Donald Trump
• Keith Chegwin
• David Icke
So, as I said, if you can’t be bothered to look into the real facts and implications of all this in/out stuff, just pick the list that you most trust and vote that way. It really couldn’t be more simple.
And if you are unsure about leaving, don't.
A nice selective list Mr Woppit. No bias in that.
[i]MSP the Greeks are meeting their debt repayments as the interest rate in virtually zero and most importantly they are borrowing more money to pay the bill. They are not really repaying anything, the debt is getting bigger (note they have been refunded interest they have paid so its not getting that much worse in reality)[/i]
Doesn't that describe the UK; running a deficit with an ever-increasing debt?
At least one of that remain list is also quite an active mountain biker if it helps swing anyones vote.
So what do we do about Greece?
Use our enormous financial brains to help them get out of a debt spiral with [s] Wonga [/s] Germany?
I've got to admit that if Michael Gove switched sides, then so would I.
br yes kind of, you can do that if your debt is affordable vs your economy/tax base. In fact the ECB has rukes for that fir the eurozone, Greece just took the mickey in a non funny way and hid hige amounts of debt. Credit crises hit and markets asked for higher rates to comoensate for risk, Greece came clean about hidden debt - boom 🙁
Junky sums up reality, they can have eurozone austerity or their own currency and much worse consequences. That's their two choices. When you are a debt junky you are not in control (boom tish)
I do laugh about Germany being made out to be the bad guy here l, without German money the Greeks would be using Drachma again and their country would be in far worse shape than it is now. Where Germany was the bad guy is they ignored the fact Greece was borrowing like crazy well beyond ECB limits
Great list Mr Woppit
Appeal to authority, Appeal to Celebrity, Ad-hominem, Ultracrepidarianism, Apex fallacy & Nutpicking.
All in one! Impressive!
Think of the panadas ninfan
kimbers - Member
So its Farige vs Geldoff on the Thames at the moment"Here are the facts about fishing," he yelled. "One, Britain makes more money than any other country in Europe from fishing. Two, Britain has the second largest quota for fish in Europe after Denmark. Three, Britain has the third largest landings. Four, you are no fisherman's friend. You were on the European Parliament Fishing Committee and you attended one out of 43 meetings.
Anyone fancy going down to one of the bridges and dropping some livestock on shameless bullshitter farige?www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjyDdE2WF3M
Well it wasn't far off...
[url= https://twitter.com/kerryjeanlister/status/743086816430043136?s=09 ]Farage vs Partridge[/url]
We have no exposure to future Euro Zone emergency funding.
The last time we did provide a bridge loan, which was fully collateralised and paid back in full. If we did chose to provide future funding for Greece then it legally has to be under the same terms.
We are more exposed via the IMF - which is not related to the referendum
Germany are among the bad guys here - no question - the unilateral blaming of the Greeks is both ignorant (true sense) and shameful. They will have to restructure their debt that has always been obvious and creditors will take a hit. As they should.
Mr Woppit have you been fed Facebook gif images?
You forget the architects of the 2008 recession, the banking crisis, the birth of PFI Messers Bliar and Brown. Who also preceded over Iraq Part II, then we have Afghanistan, Libya...where Mr Cameron comes in.
Out of 3800 Economists approached for a loaded survey just over 600 decided to respond. Wonder why the rest chose not to participate?
Let's not worry what a small racist bloke thinks or an ex-Mayor who can't articulate properly think. I dislike politicians.
Let's look at facts. Seen our trade percentage figures with the EU and how they've dropped markedly since 2008?
No I guess you wouldn't
Greece and another country will kill the EU dream. Let's not be mired nuts-deep when that baby goes off.
Greece debt- the private companies who sold Greece billions in warfare equipment on credit, the debt guaranteed by the German taxpayer. The Greek Olympics, look at that fiasco.
Guess what happens when new members join? EU countries will be lining up to upgrade all their infrastructure with debt.
I saw Bob Geldof on the news earlier and thought wtf? Why are politicians speaking in sounbites and some remain crowd focusing on the idiots rather than ignoring politicians and actually sitting down and thinking instead of Dave (he's hardly been the mastermind of a recovery has he, made loads of cuts to emergency services, etc etc) yet we still aren't close to the fiscal gap how many years on from when he first won power?
You lot listen to him and his crowd? A major player over sideshow Nigel and bumbling Boris?!
Ex-Orange chap Michael Bonnet is speaking alot of sense over on Facebook on the subject. He's obviously reading up and weighing up the facts. Not just reading Google top hits or news at ten.
they caused the sub prime market in america to collapse thereby triggering a world wide recession...you sure about that Hira.You forget the architects of the 2008 recession, the banking crisis
Plenty of shit to be flung at them but that is nonsense.
TBH the rest ins an incomprehensible stream of consciousness from you that meanders from gibberish to complete gibberish
Greece and another country will kill the EU dream. Let's not be mired nuts-deep when that baby goes off.
More eloquently put than I have managed previously. This is the elephant in the room when it comes to economic "predictions"
We have no exposure to future Euro Zone emergency funding.
Correct as the demand hasn't been handed over by Junker yet. Like I said Cameron's bit of paper reminds me of Chamberlain in the Costello song, "a condemned man's stare as he waved a piece of paper in the air, the crowd all cheered wildly" except we are not buying it and we are not cheering
For us thickies, could either of you (hora and Jambas) explain how we will be affected by the elephant. If its that big, the answers must be easy.
Thanks in advance ....
P.S. an explanation of why it will be different from our last funding would be helpful
When the S hits the fan we will be told its our Treaty commitment to save the project. PM will come back and say its in our economic interests to stablise the EU to protect trade
BTW collateralised is quite a laugh
Can you explain why? And on what terms might we participate?
So there is a week to go. Not sure what to expect, desperation turned to 11 ? We've got the IMF who'll be releasing detailed "meeting minutes" (political propoganda) on the 21st I think. Hard to think what Remain can possibly do now, they are shot. Osbourne's "Brexit budget" got slapped down so easily
Can you explain why? And on what terms might we participate?
I did already, no choice under the Treaty and whatever terms Junker decides. Did you read the drafts of the last proposed fund ? EU to the max
Greece and another country will kill the EU dream. Let's not be mired nuts-deep when that baby goes off.
More eloquently put than I have managed previously. This is the elephant in the room when it comes to economic "predictions"
If we leave the EU, what would the World think if some economic disaster befell us in 10 or 20 years? I hope the Worlds view is not as self preserving as the tryical Brexiter.