[Closed] Entitled dog owners

If you leave a bag unattended and something happens to it (stolen/damaged/sniffed by a pup), you have to take primary responsibility for putting yourself in that situation due to not looking after your own property. I wouldn't leave my car with the keys in "because I should be able to". Same principle applies.

It is the same principle, but you're setting a dangerous precedence here. It's called "blaming the victim," and it's perilously close to the woolly thinking that trots out lines like "she was asking for it."

It's sensible to take steps to protect yourself, of course, but in a crime ultimately the blame still lies solely with the perpetrator. If you left your keys in the car and it got stolen, it's not because you left your keys in the car, it's because there's a bloody car thief about.

Would it have been more sensible for MrsOP not to leave her bag unattended? Sure. But does that mean it's all right for someone / something to interfere with her property if she does?

Not like I've had hundreds, but I've been bitten at least 5 times I can think of

I got bitten 3 times as a kid, and an attempted bite aged about 16.

Not worth 3 pages though.

Most of this is people having a go at aracer for something that was completely not the point of the thread. Staggering lack of reading comprehension skills.. perhaps being a dog lover does something to your brain? 😉

sensible to take steps to protect yourself, of course, but in a crime ultimately the blame still lies solely with the perpetrator. 

No crime was committed here. A dog sniffed a bag.

I'm with you on this one OP. Someone was mildly rude to me today as well...first thing I wanted to do was run home and post about it on internet 😉

It is the same principle, but you're setting a dangerous precedence here. It's called "blaming the victim," and it's perilously close to the woolly thinking that trots out lines like "she was asking for it."

Holy shit, that reads a little like you are comparing this (a dog sniffing a bag) to rape........

yunki - Member
I reckon you've got a strong case for a compensation claim here.. not only for the distressing episode with the dog but also for the trauma that you must have suffered as a result of this thread

I've been wondering about compensation claims after all the stress I get reading the frequent drivel on this forum, I'm quite often traumatised..

However back to the subject at hand in which I can see both sides and I think my comment would be dependant upon the tone of Mrs Aracer if it were my pup and I'd unfortunately caused the incident as has happened on the odd occasion, normally I would be fully embarrassed and try to prevent such an incident occurring and were it to happen I'd be instantly apologetic.

But there are times when apologies are never enough and 'they' (probably due to irrational fear or annoyance at their own stupidity or for whatever reason) enter effing and blinding rant mode, at which point it becomes difficult not to counter in similar vein, so without being there a tricky one to pass judgement on.

Humans are humans wether they own dogs or not they don't always get on, particularly if voices are already raised, dogs are dogs and don't pay much attention to shouty people anyway unless they know them and puppies know nothing yet other than it smells different and might be nice to eat.

I'm with the mountain and molehill illustration personally.

No crime was committed here. A dog sniffed a bag.
...
Holy shit, that reads a little like you are comparing this (a dog sniffing a bag) to rape........

In both cases I was talking about the analogy Andy posted, regarding car theft. Might I suggest Mirapexin?

So you were talking about the analyogy being made without any reference to what the analogy is about? How odd. Should his response have been, "its analogy you ****, dont take it literally".

Cranky thread, needs ending. I blame the humidity...

I blame the dogs.

So you were talking about the analyogy being made without any reference to what the analogy is about? How odd. Should his response have been, "its analogy you ****, dont take it literally".

Sorry, I'm clearly overestimating my readers in expecting a degree of common sense and the ability to read the entirety of a post in context.

On the upside, maybe the Daily Mail are hiring?

The analogy is the point point of the post you blathering idiot as you said yourself.

Best thread evah!

I will however be reporting DezB to the RSPCA for encouraging all and sundry to kick his dog up the arse.

[quote=richc ]

It is the same principle, but you're setting a dangerous precedence here. It's called "blaming the victim," and it's perilously close to the woolly thinking that trots out lines like "she was asking for it."

Holy shit, that reads a little like you are comparing this (a dog sniffing a bag) to rape........

It is indeed an extremely poor example to use.

Don't get me wrong, not because it's not a valid example of victim blaming, one in which most people won't identify with the perpetrator, so find it rather easier to work out who the victim is than an incident involving dogs, but because some people get all confused and assume you're comparing the original incident with rape and the thread gets derailed.

The analogy is the point point of the post you blathering idiot as you said yourself.

Eh?

I was replying to a comment Andy made. You called me on it, "no crime was committed," and though I thought it was obvious from context I nonetheless elaborated that the "crime" I was referencing was the one he brought up.

Now you're telling me that that was the point of the post; you seem to be aggressively agreeing with me? Am I being spectacularly dense here or did I call your pint a poof at some point or something?

It is indeed an extremely poor example to use.

Cheerfully withdrawn. It was simply the most clear-cut "blaming the victim is bad mmkay" example I could think of; see that Jodie Foster movie. But it was probably insensitive, and you're right, it's to easy to get taken out of context by the hard of reading. Sorry. I'm somewhat Aspie and I have a blind spot to this sort of thing.

richc > I don't take them to the park in the summer precisely because there are picnickers there and it means I'd have to keep the dogs on the lead

i do this too. fortunately i live in wales so those two days have already past for the year

 

[quote=andyrm ]There has to be an element of personal responsibility on BOTH sides of this story.
If you leave a bag unattended and something happens to it (stolen/damaged/sniffed by a pup), you have to take primary responsibility for putting yourself in that situation due to not looking after your own property. I wouldn't leave my car with the keys in "because I should be able to". Same principle applies.
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Bit of both at fault here.

OK, let's run with that analogy. I have to admit I'm not all that up with cases involving stealing cars, but a quick google suggests a sentence of up to 6 months imprisonment (with no other aggravating factors). However when it comes to leaving a car with the keys in I couldn't find any sentencing guidelines at all - could you help me out here as I'm trying to assess the relative division of fault. Do you think a maximum sentence of 1 month would be reasonable for leaving keys in a car, so making the thief 6 times more at fault? Or am I under sentencing the person leaving the keys a bit there?

On the other hand, as an owner of a puppy myself

Now there's a surprise.

I know to put him on the lead in areas that could harbour potential conflict with less tolerant people, regardless of who is at fault.

What [b]interesting[/b] use of language. So the conflict which could arise, is it more likely to be the less tolerant people at fault than your puppy? Actually it would help an awful lot if you could explain what perfectly reasonable behaviour those awful people are less tolerant about.

I can see where the op is coming from, but personally I'd have used it as an excuse for some serious puppy wrestling. Who's bad doggy, grrr, argh that kinda thing, tickle it until it does a wee (not on the bag though).

So to summarise, dog sniffed strange object on the ground, bag lady was worried strange dog might piss on said bag then shouted at strange dog to get away. Tetchy dog owner shouted back at bag lady and told her to do one as his precious can do what it likes.
So no damage to property, no threats or actual harm done to any of the parties involved. So what is it we're all discussing here?

bag lady

I didn't realise things had got [i]that[/i] tough at the aracer household. 🙂

So what is it we're all discussing here?

Every so often, we need a dog thread so the loverz and haterz can get things off their chest and have a bit of an argue where they can make ridiculous generalisations about one another, using the lowest common denominator of each other's group to sling shit (that hasn't been bagged up).

Now if a kitten dared sniff my bag, things would get real.... Real quick 😈

Dog into bag, into pond, problem solved 😈

Dog into bag, into pond, problem solved

School boy error there Benji.You need weight to ensure neither dog nor bag can rise from the depths and seek revenge!

 

School boy error there Benji.You need weight to ensure neither dog nor bag can rise from the depths and seek revenge!

Have you ever picked up a ladys handbag, most have their own gravitational pulls there is that much stuff/junk rammed in there.

I didn't think of that. Perhaps the puppy could start a new life in there, free from the tyranny of ownership and the wrath of the picnic people. For he shall be the dog king of bagdad!

I think sleep may be in order 😛

OK, let's run with that analogy. I have to admit I'm not all that up with cases involving stealing cars, but a quick google suggests a sentence of up to 6 months imprisonment (with no other aggravating factors).

Let's look at your insurance policy. Leave the car keys in (i.e. not take full and proper care of your property) and it will not be covered. Proximate Cause is the leaving of the keys. If they were not left, the incident could not have happened.

First point - we need to stop trying to absolve ourselves as a culture of any responsibility for things that are our own fault. If you abandon something and it is lost/eaten/stolen, the act of abandoning it led to it happening. Proximate Cause is the leaving unattended/abandoning of said item.

What interesting use of language. So the conflict which could arise, is it more likely to be the less tolerant people at fault than your puppy? Actually it would help an awful lot if you could explain what perfectly reasonable behaviour those awful people are less tolerant about.

I am aware that some people are scared/allergic/nervous around even little dogs. I know they are irrational fears founded on nothing. But I have enough courtesy to keep my dog on a lead in scenarios where I am statistically more likely to meet people with these fears.

Far too much emotional language and personally involved anecdotal "evidence" being used in this thread, in other words, biased single sided stories, as borne out by the thread title.

In summary:

- Aracer's bird left her bag unattended, showing lack of due care for personal property.
- Puppy sniffed it.
- Some shouting occurred.
- All involved parties could have behaved like civil human beings rather than getting all emotional.
- The end.

as borne out by the thread title.

Indeed. It was clearly designed to incite hatred.

I am aware that some people are scared/allergic/nervous around even little dogs. I know they are irrational fears founded on nothing

Could you be any more patronising? Given that thousands of people are bitten by dogs every year, it's hardly 'an irrational fear founded on nothing' is it?

Indeed. It was clearly designed to [s]incite hatred.[/s] troll. again.

[quote=andyrm ]Let's look at your insurance policy. Leave the car keys in (i.e. not take full and proper care of your property) and it will not be covered. Proximate Cause is the leaving of the keys. If they were not left, the incident could not have happened.

Yet if you crash your car into a tree your insurance will cover it, so presumably that isn't your fault. Or maybe whether car insurance covers something isn't the best criteria to use for establishing fault.

Actually, can I just check your real name isn't Janick Fielding, because he did a good line in pointing out that Denisa Perinova wouldn't have died if she hadn't gone for a bike ride, so she was at fault for her own death. Proximate cause, is that the correct term?

Could you be any more patronising? Given that thousands of people are bitten by dogs every year, it's hardly 'an irrational fear founded on nothing' is it?

Given the number of interactions its is fairly irrational. How do injury rates compare to car travel? I have what I consider an irrational fear of flying, people do die from flying but its still irrational.

So it's a fairly irrational fear founded on something then.
And I'm not sure we should be referring to insurance companies as arbiters of morality either. Proximate Cause is designed to swing the odds a little more in their favour.

Andyrm +1

- Aracer's bird left her bag unattended, showing lack of due care for personal property.
- Puppy sniffed it.
- Some shouting occurred.
- All involved parties could have behaved like civil human beings rather than getting all emotional.
- The end.

[quote=anagallis_arvensis ]Given the number of interactions its is fairly irrational. How do injury rates compare to car travel?

I mentioned up there I've been bitten by dogs at least 5 times. I've never been injured in a car. Just how irrational would it be for me to be afraid of dogs?

Or since somebody complained about anecdotes, how about some stats. Estimated over 200,000 dog bites a year resulting in over 6000 hospital admissions http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/10429862/Dog-attack-laws-and-statistics.html which is a bit more than the total number of injuries on the roads http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reported_Road_Casualties_Great_Britain

Hardly something to trivialise - though I'm sure somebody will be along shortly to do just that - and far from an irrational fear IMHO.

at least...... blimey you are unlucky, how many scars do you have or do you keep them well hidden on the inside?
We would need to know how many times has a dog not bitten you in order to asses your rationality.

5 times?!

Are you a butcher? do you smell of sausages?

Just seem to encounter a lot of dogs, given I regularly run and bike on FPs and BWs where dogs are walked. Presumably the answer is not to do that - Proximate Cause?

The thing is though looking at those stats, there are a lot of people who don't go out where dogs are so will never get bitten, but everybody uses the roads. Hence those who do encounter dogs regularly have a far higher chance of being bitten by a dog than injured in a road accident.

Still irrational that fear?

I don't have an irrational fear of dogs, I just don't like them at all. Same is true of children for some people which is why I never let my kids run onto other people's picnics, lick their legs, jump up at their bikes, shite in their bushes, shag their legs, shake fetid water over their clothes or eat their tame guinea pigs.

I am not a dog owner. I consider a lot of what owning a dog entails and the consequences of dog ownership difficult and downright disgusting.

However, if I left a bag laying about and a puppy disappeared into it head first I'd think it was hilarious. Because puppies are cute and I'm watching a baby with an unquenchable curiosity get into humorous scrapes. Were I to shoo it away, I'd do so with the same tone and attitude I'd use with a toddler. Gentle firm and in good humour.

You might have done likewise. You might have yelled angrily and aggressively. And the answer to that pretty much decides who was being the tool in your case.

You need to chill out aracer.

Have you considered getting a dog?

'kin 'ell. This still going. You lot are like a dog with a [s]bag[/s] bone!

I mentioned up there I've been bitten by dogs at least 5 times.

This is how to do it,

However, if I left a bag laying about and a puppy disappeared into it head first I'd think it was hilarious. Because puppies are cute and I'm watching a baby with an unquenchable curiosity get into humorous scrapes. Were I to shoo it away, I'd do so with the same tone and attitude I'd use with a toddler. Gentle firm and in good humour.

Given that thousands of people are bitten by dogs every year, it's hardly 'an irrational fear founded on nothing' is it?

Conversely Billions of people worldwide aren't bitten by dogs every year.

I am still struggling with you being bitten 5 times, I have no reason not to believe you but that is a lot! (Not excusing the biters) did they all break the skin or cause bruising?

I don't think 5 bites is that much. If you ride a lot, you will always come up against dogs off the lead who will chase you, farmyards guarded by dogs etc. You are going to get bitten at some point. Inevitable part of riding off road if you've been at it long enough.

I'm sure some are 'warning' bites as I've had some that whilst all teeth barred and aggressive, once they got down to chomping on my leg didn't break skin. Bruises, but no blood. I assume that is a warning?

I'm getting more of this happening nowadays as I'm getting older, more stubborn and probably more foolish and tend to ignore signs of aggression from dogs as I really can't be bothered to engage with them and interrupt my ride. Hence getting chased etc.

Anyway - last 3 years:
Surrounded by a pack of border collies and bitten by one.
Forced to stop by 2 loose border collies and then one sank its teeth into my front tyre. Yum stans...
Knocked off my bike by a big white dog that looked like a hairy Alsatian.

Before that - a few 'warning' bites.

How often is everyone else getting bitten or bothered then?