[Closed] End Halal petition

Out of interest a muslim friend of mine holds the opinion that anything reared industrially can't be halal no matter how it's killed.

There's nothing magic at all, bolt stunning is humane compared to bleeding to death. This is neither a minor nor a marginal point.

Have we done this yet? If not, why not, it might be the answer? 🙂

.in fact with fox hunting being rooted in history and tradition it has about as much legitimacy as the tradition of Halal slaughter.

Except with halal the animals aren't chased for miles till exhaustion then ripped to bits.
Love to see those redcoats running for their lives.

What if they were stunned then bled to death?

Well of course, its infinitely more humane to the animal.

The vast majority of meat that gets killed has had a pretty shite life up to there, lasting several months.

Farmers would wholeheartedly disagree.

Factory-farmers would wholeheartedly disagree.

ftfy

And - no shit, Sherlock? The vast majority of dairy and meat is factory-farmed.

This has turned to a halal of a thread.

What do you call a camel with three humps?

Humphrey!

Are the meat eaters among us prepared to pay more to make standards better?

Consumers can usually solve problems if they're bothered enough.

Same with sweat-shop labour. Almost back-round noise now as long as we're getting our cheap crap.

Are the meat eaters among us prepared to pay more to make standards better?

Not me! I'd pay a bit more for GM research into better productivity. In fact I even part funded the kick starter campaign for the GM chickens

Are the meat eaters among us prepared to pay more to make standards better?

We do pay more. Pre-stunned is generally more expensive than halal meat, eg cheap lamb from your local turkish food shop. There's no change needed for the general populous other than outlawing medieval slaughter methods. There are no barriers other than islamic and jewish sentiment.

We do pay more. Pre-stunned is generally more expensive than halal meat, eg cheap lamb from your local turkish food shop. There's no change needed for the general populous other than outlawing medieval slaughter methods. There are no barriers other than islamic sentiment.

For the umpteenth time, most Halal meat is pre-stunned. The change for the general populace is an acknowledgement that minimum standards of livestock welfare in this country are not all that great.

Are the meat eaters among us prepared to pay more to make standards better?

Already been asked and answered but yes I would/do it is actually available already. If it becomes more readily available the price might actually drop.

Fair enough, but I'm not sure this represents the populace at large.

I think the populace should be more concern about chicken that's been used to mop the floor...

Sadly that doesn't get round the abattoir issue.

Neither, sadly, does existing monitoring (including RSPCA approved in some cases)

[url= https://www.animalaid.org.uk/the-issues/our-campaigns/slaughter/animal-aid-statement-non-stun-slaughter/ ]This, IMO just about sums up most issues/questions raised by this thread/petition[/url]

Are the meat eaters among us prepared to pay more to make standards better?

I am a vegetarian but my dogs aren't. They get fed wild boar, pheasant, rabbit etc,. And no it isn't anyway as cheap as someone 99% of people buy from the supermarket.

I would put my money on people not really caring as long as the meat is cheap, which is why pretending to care about the last 10 minutes of the animals life seems very odd.

not really caring as long as the meat is cheap

don't forget tasty!

For the umpteenth time, most Halal meat is pre-stunned

Why not all, without exception?
Give me a valid reason against doing this?
Millions of animals are still bled to death without stunning every year in the UK and there is no justification for allowing this practice to continue.

Why not all, without exception?
Give me a valid reason against doing this?
Millions of animals are still bled to death without stunning every year in the UK and there is no justification for allowing this practice to continue.

Why are you asking me? I was simply pointing out the error in your post.

Millions of animals are still bled to death without stunning every year in the UK and there is no justification for allowing this practice to continue.

I'm not sure anyone is arguing that it should.
Some may be saying it is a trivial point in the grand scheme. But if the petition was asking for all animals to be stunned before being killed, by whatever means , then i think most folks here might be happier signing that

I think the populace should be more concern about chicken that's been used to mop the floor...

In the grand scale, I think that is a paltry concern

Why not all, without exception?

Everyone on here has agreed there should be no exception, some because of you know Muslims, others because it’s just not humane. Then there’s those that keeping telling us that animals should have a good life before being murdered but I don’t think anyone has said they shouldn’t.

In the grand scale, I think that is a paltry concern

NIce nugget of humour.

though to be honest, chasing rabbits with a hammer before shooting them is just exhausting!

NIce nugget of humour.

Deserves a pulletzer prize.

though to be honest, chasing rabbits with a hammer before shooting them is just exhausting!

Well if little Rabitt Foo Foo can manage with field mice I’m sure you can try harder.

Everyone on here has agreed there should be no exception

Incorrect.

You may be right to be honest I gave up on it when trolls started, I should have kept it that way.

Everyone on here has agreed there should be no exception

Seeing it is so humane at what age would you let a child watch it happen live? If you are uncomfortable with doing this ask yourself why.
Banning others form eating stuff is silly [ as is killing it in a slightly different way] - thought the vegans are the preachy ones - do what you can and leave others to do what they want.

Junkyard - lazarus

i have asked why this brief moment in a lifetime of cruelty is what tips you meat eaters over from happy to eat it into humanitarian concern for the slaughter victim.

Your making the assumption that just because someone cares about the method of slaughter they are unconcerned about the welfare of living animals. That's not the case. You're also making the assertion that all animals reared for food have miserable lives, also not the case.

Let me just check what level of misery the cattle in the field are being subjected to......well it's a bit windy and they have no jackets but apart from that and crushing boredom I'd say they are fine.

Seeing it is so humane at what age would you let a child watch it happen live? If you are uncomfortable with doing this ask yourself why.

My son has already seen lambs being born and chickens being slaughtered. He is three. I wouldn't have an issue with him seeing cattle being slaughtered other than the fact that the killing floor of a slaughterhouse is no place for a three year old.

I have not i have asked why this brief moment in a lifetime of cruelty is what tips you meat eaters over

I thought it would be evident that I wasn’t referring to veggies and vegans, let’s face it I didn’t need to specify that did I?

Tips us over to what?

Seeing it is so humane at what age would you let a child watch it happen live? If you are uncomfortable with doing this ask yourself why.

I think was about 7 or 8 my daughter watched it on YouTube when was around the same age.

She is against animal testing and has experessed her concerns of about eating meat, she has weighed up the rights and wrongs deciding she is comfortable with the fact that animals die to feed us. However, she does like me prefer them to have a better life first.

Banning others form eating stuff is silly [ as is killing it in a slightly different way] - thought the vegans are the preachy ones - do what you can and leave others to do what they want.

Where was I being preachy?

Preachy would be claiming there’s a tipping point.

well it's a bit windy

I have not i have asked why this brief moment in a lifetime of cruelty is what tips you meat eaters over from happy to eat it into humanitarian concern for the slaughter victim.

Ok then, do you think there should be an exception?

Well if little Rabitt Foo Foo can manage with field mice I’m sure you can try harder.

Hey, i'm not chasing them a for a little rabbit foo foo, that might be your thing and i say sure, but some of the animal welfare folks here might be against it, unless it's a consenting rabbit

That's not the case. You're also making the assertion that all animals reared for food have miserable lives, also not the case.

A lot more do and that misery lasts for their whole life. If I was pretending to care about animals I would be caring about that ahead of the few that are not stunned before bleeding to death.

Ok then, do you think there should be an exception?

Your making the assumption that just because someone cares about the method of slaughter they are unconcerned about the welfare of living animals.

NO i am saying that folk concerned with animal welfare dont slaughter them by any method and whatever method they choose to slaughter them by is inherently cruel.

However you all seem hapy to do this but for thi one bit

TBH when you are hanging chickens upside down on conveyor belts by their legs to electrocute* them and then chop their heads*off I think the point for lectures on animal welfare has passed.

* neither of which is 100% successful

NO i am saying that folk concerned with animal welfare dont slaughter them by any method and whatever method they choose to slaughter them by is inherently cruel.

Farmers will fundamentally disagree with you.

NO i am saying that folk concerned with animal welfare dont slaughter them by any method and whatever method they choose to slaughter them by is inherently cruel.

Seems you’re wrong or just have a different opinion, you know that’s Ok either way?

Farmers will fundamentally disagree with you.

So what. They are clearly looking at it from a different angle, i.e. monetary gain. Which is exactly why a lot of animals get treated so poorly - the better kept they are, the higher the cost, the lower the profit.

kerley - Member
the higher the cost

Count me out too!

"animal welfare" is an interesting point on it's own and I guess at the very centre of the discussion. Ie what do you class as animal welfare? a nice happy worry free life where the animals aren't even aware of their capters or executioners, or at the other end of the spectrum, that animal welfare means they aren't diseased, dirty or generally unfit for consumption.

Must be honest, my sympathies lie very much to the latter, long as the stuff is safe to eat, happy days. Prove to me that animal welfare results in better meat and I might get on board with you, but tbh only so much more I'd be willing to pay there.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/08/how-animal-welfare-leads-to-better-meat-a-lesson-from-spain/244127/

In that case seosamh77 watch the camel video a couple of pages back and you may well change your mind.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/08/how-animal-welfare-leads-to-better-meat-a-lesson-from-spain/244127/

How does that scale to 2 billion pigs a year, with out me having to fork out more cash for my bacon?

enfht - Member
In that case seosamh77 watch the camel video a couple of pages back and you may well change your mind.

tbh that doesn't seem particularly cruel as far as I can see? once their throats are cut they seem to drop dead within 15/20 seconds or so?

Seems you’re wrong or just have a different opinion, you know that’s Ok either way?

kerley - Member

Farmers will fundamentally disagree with you.

So what. They are clearly looking at it from a different angle, i.e. monetary gain. Which is exactly why a lot of animals get treated so poorly - the better kept they are, the higher the cost, the lower the profit.

Ah yes that makes sense. Small sick animals in poor condition are always going to fetch top dollar aren't they 🙄

well as long as me being correct is off the table

It is with statements like you made yes.

Ah yes that makes sense. Small sick animals in poor condition are always going to fetch top dollar aren't they

intensive farming /megafarming isn't 'top dollar' per animal. It's mass supply at lower cost per unit dollar. This is the majority of the meat industry. How is that confusing?

Who makes the most money/supplies most of our meat:

This farmer?

[img] ?mtime=20170714150100[/img]

Seems you’re wrong or just have a different opinion, you know that’s Ok either way?

Ooooh! Snappy come back.

Malvern Rider - Member

intensive farming /megafarming isn't 'top dollar' per animal. It's mass supply at lower cost per unit dollar. This is the majority of the meat industry. How is that confusing?

Megafarming you say? The average Irish beef herd is around 55 head of cattle. Average dairy herd is less than 100. The average sheep farmer has a flock of around 100. Almost 80% of farms are categorised as very small. Where are these mega farms you speak of?

Who makes the most money/supplies most of our meat:

This farmer?

I try to completely avoid chicken (substitute with turkey mostly), although I do eat a lot of eggs. I think intensive battery farming of chickens is cruel, and I don't think it produces healthy animals or good food.

The chicken industry is pretty stitched up by a few huge suppliers now. The farmer gets paid a tiny amount per bird and the suppliers provide everything else! Food, bedding, equipment and chicks.
My uncle looked into doing it and it would have been a pittance for the risk and effort involved.

This has the potential to be great...we already have some 'whataboutery' in the 3rd post in...

"Whataboutery" my least favourite word, a lazy way of dismissing valid arguments that you disagree with

Come on, only one page to go...

Should we now add chicken to this petition. And remember the horse meat scandal.

Where are these mega farms you speak of?

[url= https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2017-07-17/intensive-numbers-of-intensive-farming ]Intensive farming in the UK[/url]

"Whataboutery" my least favourite word, a lazy way of dismissing valid arguments that you disagree with

Or a valid way of dismissing arguments that have nothing to do with the actual thing being discussed.

Or a valid way of dismissing arguments that have nothing to do with the actual thing being discussed.

Unless of course the debate was somehow just to be restricted to religious slaughter and has nothing at all to do with animal welfare. Which also sort of proves I'm not wrong either...

"Whataboutery" my least favourite word, a lazy way of dismissing valid arguments that you disagree with

It’s STW equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and shouting LALALALA!

Don't worry, post Brexit and free of Halal/Kosher-slaughtering will be all squeaky-awesome can go back to ignoring the everyday welfare and slaughter issues from our meat-factories (that don't exist because I saw cows in a field). But wait, there is a potentially new foreign threat to our fingers-in-the-eyes-and-ears lalala-ner-ner-National purity?

The greatest threat to farm animal welfare standards post-Brexit would come from UK farmers competing against cheap, imported food from countries that produce to lower standards than the UK. Therefore, the Government's wish for the UK to become a global leader in free trade is not necessarily compatible with its desire to maintain high (sic) animal welfare standards.

[url= https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/lords-select/eu-energy-environment-subcommittee/news-parliament-2017/brexit-farm-animal-report-published/ ]https://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/lords-select/eu-energy-environment-subcommittee/news-parliament-2017/brexit-farm-animal-report-published/[/url]

It was specifically aimed at my post and I still think that the point was perfectly valid

Fine, so someone might have dismissed what you said as whataboutery incorrectly. The point still stands that a lot of people do you whataboutery and what they are raising needs to be dismissed validly.

Malvern Rider - Member

Don't worry, post Brexit and free of Halal/Kosher-slaughtering will be all squeaky-awesome can go back to ignoring the everyday welfare and slaughter issues from our meat-factories (that don't exist because I saw cows in a field).

There you go again trying to imply that the everyday welfare of animals is ignored, or that people who eat meat don't care about it. The fact that anyone can see sheep and cows in fields is relevant because it allows them to see the condition of the animals for themselves. Anyone living in the country has 24hr uninterrupted access to animals not suffering. And when they are taken for slaughter they are inspected by vets to ensure that they are in good condition, healthy and free of diseases.

Should I take some photographs for you to illustrate this lack of suffering since my eyes and words don't seem adequate?

If you have a point at all regarding megafarms and intensive farming it relates to poultry and I would agree, there is an ethical issue there but unless you specify poultry you are just obfuscating the issue.

There you go again trying to imply that the everyday welfare of animals is ignored, or that people who eat meat don't care about it.

I'll own that my rhetoric/sarcasm there was clumsy. To the point (evidently) that the royal 'we' may appear that I meant 'everyone'. What I mean is that the majority of us (evidence by production and consumption statistics) 'care' in principle yet not in practice, or even as far as to educate ourselves fully. I include myself in this 'we'. You admit yourself that megafarms weren't on your radar and evidenced this by referring some beef cattle in fields.

My 'point' was the majority of meat (and dairy) we produce is intensively farmed. Not only poultry. I gave evidence of the increasing intensive rearing of poultry and pork yet you focused on poultry (presumably because you do not buy chicken?) while missing/not counting (?) the pork-farms in the research I linked. When I say the 'majority' of meat I mean just that. Pork and poultry counts for the majority of meat produced in the UK.

there is an ethical issue there but unless you specify poultry* you are just obfuscating the issue.

Why should I specify only poultry when the majority of production is far and away pork, poultry (not including intensively farmed dairy cattle) combined?

[img] [/img]

Poultry and pigs: 2591
Cattle and sheep: 1197

(000 tonnes CW)

Shall we share the ironing? 🙄

Edit : never mind.

Also a quarter of meat now sold in UK is imported from nations that are weaker on animal welfare.

So if we add that and adjust the above figures, then it's looking like we are 'caring' less or more? On average?

Have there been any straw women yet?

Malvern Rider - Member

You admit yourself that megafarms weren't on your radar and evidenced this by referring some beef cattle in fields.

I also stated that The average "Irish beef herd is around 55 head of cattle. Average dairy herd is less than 100. The average sheep farmer has a flock of around 100. Almost 80% of farms are categorised as very small". So livestock in a field is representative of at least 80% of the cattle and sheep.

Let's be clear, the thread is about methods of slaughter. We are debating methods of slaughter. An argument has been put forward multiple times that people who eat meat don't actually care about the condition of the animals they eat, the animals they eat live lives of never ending suffering, therefore it's completely hypocritical to take an interest in the method of slaughter and people are only doing so out of some latent islamophobia because they are backward thinking meat eating brexit voting racist nazis.

The fact that most sheep and cattle, and a considerable number of pigs don't fit that narrative means you're trying to shift the debate to be purely numerical because it allows you to say "vast majority" but the method of slaughter and the practical realities of killing a 1000kg cow and a 3kg chicken are completely different and so the method of slaughter is relevant and can't be dismissed with fallacious arguments.

Rightly or wrongly people prioritise the suffering of large ruminants over that over chickens, and they typically have much better lives.

A few pages back you were sharing videos of pigs and sheep being slaughtered - how is that relevant when the vast majority of animals slaughtered are chickens? If you want to debate chickens start a thread about chickens.

*anyway I'm away out on my bike. I'll keep an eye out for any animal suffering.

[img] [/img]

What Malver said.

We looked into it today out of interest following this thread and sadly, despite having the ready means to dispatch and butcher our own sheep right here, we can only do so if we eat the produce ourselves.

So it is actually forced upon us to use an abattoir if we want to give away or sell any meat.

I guess we'll choose the closest and hope we get some well trained operators!

It's interesting to note that I am legally qualified to shoot a deer and introduce it to the food chain but not a sheep killed in far more controlled circumstances.

Malvern Rider - Member

A gif.

Drac - Moderator

What Malver said.

Ah so we're done trying to use our words and we're just posting pictures? Great 🙂

Look at this poor beast. The look of pain and depression in its eyes, the suffering must be unimaginable.
[img] [/img]

Just look at the relentless misery these sheep are having to cope with.
[img] [/img]

Another graphic image. It's basically a reverse concentration camp for cattle.
[img] [/img]

The horror.
[img] [/img]

These bullocks didn't even know their own names. The farmer even pierced their ears - perhaps some kind of attempt to gender shame or sexually objectify them. Can't be sure.
[img] [/img]

This is probably the worst - very hard to tell but this image shows a brown ewe trapped in a field with two white rams. Farmer is clearly a racist misogynist. I had to flee in case the farmer caught me exposing his mistreatment.
[img] [/img]

Are you stuck for something to do?

Careful he’ll bring his milkshake to the yard.

This hasn't made the predicted 10 pages after all 🙁

This hasn't made the predicted 10 pages after all

It will though.

Just wait.

Ta Daaa....!

Right, can we all **** off now?

Congratulations Zokes! Ten pages of meat based madness 🙂

Signed. Not cool at all.

Elliot