[Closed] Employer refusing annual leave

Some companies have it in the employment contract that they expect the holidays to be spread throughout the year (I have such a clause in mine) some can be even more specific, but it is unusual. My holidays can even be cancelled once booked for operational reasons, but as my managers are not ****s they will do everything possible to avoid that.

No allowing a 2 week holiday next year sound like they are ****s, have they given a reason? I think they must give a reason for refusal, if someone else has already booked that time it in a small team that can be a reasonable reason.

Government website covers this, albeit probably not very helpful to you https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights/booking-time-off-

ACAS also.
http://www.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=4303

Holiday is taken by mutual consent usually. However I find it very odd to refuse more than a week at a time as most folk take a two week holiday

April / may is usually a time when there is not much competition for holidays so I don't understand why they are doing this unless its a very busy time for the employer.

Have other employees taken 2 weeks at a time?

check contract / employee handbook and once again - join a union

One of the reasons I left my last job was their attitude to holidays. I won't put up with it. I always book mine well in advance and make sure I don't clash with anyone, which is fair and reasonable I think. Otherwise my holiday form is less of a request and more of "this is when I won't be here" sort of thing.
If it's not in the contract tell them to poke it.

my wife has to arrange her own cover, not sure what the role of HR is, if she wants a week or more. Not had a situation yet where every one has said no!

Week off, week sick. Sorted

[s]Week off[/s], 2 weeks sick. Sorted

Sorted, shower of shite.

Two weeks sick requires a doctors line. One week does not.

Not like a sick line is hard to get.

Not like a sick line is hard to get.

It is if you're in asia trying to get hold of your GP

yeah, we'll look into it, thanks for the advice.

Obviously, she is looking for a new job at the moment anyway, as you would with an employer who was like that.

Worst thing is, it's not the employer, it's her manager. She will escalate if nothing changes.

Ah - thats easier to deal with if its a manager making up their own rules

You need to find out if others have been allowed 2 weeks at once

You need to find out HRs position on it

How big a company?

Depends what she does, I'd not try and take 2 weeks off in april/may as we have a number of end of year reports that need producing for contracts that we are working on. Assuming nothing like that it seems a bit crap.

Is it because she is trying to take the main holidays off and others are also off at that time? Easter is much later next year compared to this year.

That causes issues for me as we're a small team spread all over the world, other than that though can't see why it's an issue.

internal recruitment, and she isn't senior, so really should not be an issue.

Think she will go above her head, not that it will every end well.

I can’t seem to find anything on the citizens advice bureau relating to this, any advice?

So you thought you'd try a bike forum?

I insist that people take a minimum of one 2 week holiday a year. It's important to recharge the batteries. People still need to plan it properly thought and minimise disruption.

Hope you sort it out

not sure what the role of HR is

Simple, to keep the employer out of court

I'd ask for the reason for refusal in writing, and take it from there, as I'd consider it a genuine grievance if the best reason is 'it's not allowed'.

Requesting 2 weeks off is hardly an outrageous request - if there is a legitimate business need for refuasal, the ammount of notice is surley enough for the company to work around it, so it does sound unreasonable on the surface.

[I]I insist that people take a minimum of one 2 week holiday a year.[/I]

Never heard of that before, and I for one hate having two weeks in one go, much rather have two separate weeks.

[I]It's important to recharge the batteries. [/I]

It only takes me until I get in my car to 'turn off' 🙂

I can’t seem to find anything on the citizens advice bureau relating to this, any advice?

So you thought you'd try a bike forum?

Is it in the wrong forum? Didn't realise. Thanks for pointing it out in such a pleasant way

^ some financial places insist on a minimum fortnight, so that the employee's books can be checked/audited.
Refusal in writing and push it up the ladder.

I *think* the employer needs to give a satisfactory reason for disallowing leave. They can't just say no or make stuff up. If there is a legitimate reason then you are stuffed e.g to many people off work or the company is too busy etc. If its just they don't allow 2 weeks off in a row then I would think thats unresonable. Even my crapy place of employment allows 3 weeks in a row

^ some financial places insist on a minimum fortnight, so that the employee's books can be checked/audited.

Its also allows you to check how indispensible the indispensible really are!!! 😉

I advise anyone who thinks that 3 weeks off is a good idea to consider the above carefully. It isnt....

^ some financial places insist on a minimum fortnight, so that the employee's books can be checked/audited.

You have to be an FCA (or PRA - not sure which) regulated person for it to be a "Rule".

Doesn't stop loads of employers adopting it for everybody as "Policy".

given that you've let them know well in advance it does seem poor, as others have said, it may well be worth pushing a bit to find out why. And "because we're busy" isn't really a good enough answer. You may have to go above the line manager's head.

2 weeks isn't spectacularly unusual, and unless it's specifically in the contract, or habitual for the work they do, there's no good reason for not letting your missus have the time off as far as I can see.

thanks all for your help

Requesting 2 weeks off is hardly an outrageous request

Especially with several months' notice, that's just ridiculous. I'd be considering that as a Holiday Notification rather than a Holiday Request.

Arsey managers aside, her employment contract should detail holiday policy. See what it says in there in the first instance.

Book it and plan a new job?

Book it and plan a new job?

when i worked in industry we where only allowed 2 weeks off last week july first week august. rest had to be a few days at a time to aid production schedules.

Worst thing is, it's not the employer, it's her manager. She will escalate if nothing changes.

then i went to work in the nhs and a lazy worker same grade as me would always book holidays at school holidays, despite never going anywhere, and never seeming to have any intrest in his child, yet the weal jobswsworth manager ALWAYS said he could take the time off, and i had to rebook another week.

As said there's no obligation for them to give 2 weeks of or the weeks you want, check her contract though for a clause and look for other staff who have had 2 werks off but that's easy for employers to get around.

Don't let her go sick you've just told told them you're going on holiday. Don't spit the dummy just because you can't take your holidays when you want, they're paying you to provide a service you can't just please yourself.

I advise anyone who thinks that 3 weeks off is a good idea to consider the above carefully. It isnt....

What sort of dictatorial cockwombles do you work for?

Worst thing is, it's not the employer, it's her manager

Usually the case. People don't leave companies, they leave managers.

In this case with this amount of notice, I'd say it's wholly unreasonable. Plenty of time for them to arrange cover if necessary.

Though we're generally lucky in the UK or with UK companies. American companies would likely refuse two weeks and few people in America consider taking that much time off in one go.

If she's looking to move jobs, can she go freelance? Do what you like then with holidays 😀 . I've not even been keeping track of mine in the last few years. I just bog off on holiday if I want. Though holidays aren't considered holidays, they're days of no profit. So tempting to not take any.

[quote=Drac ]As said there's no obligation for them to give 2 weeks of or the weeks you want, check her contract though for a clause and look for other staff who have had 2 werks off but that's easy for employers to get around.

THIS
Check T & C of contract
Check for usual practice - ie is she being discriminated against?

I advise anyone who thinks that 3 weeks off is a good idea to consider the above carefully

Have you mentioned this to MP's over lunch yet?

a plan.. get pregnant.. year off.. and 18 years of joy..

I do not believe there is any legal reason for the employer to give 2 weeks together nor is there any actual legal need for them even to be reasonable over this

The only out is if the contract (unlikely) or employee handbook / HR policies say two weeks can be taken together or if others have had two weeks together.

Don't spit the dummy just because you can't take your holidays when you want, they're paying you to provide a service you can't just please yourself.

Stuff that. If they want happy staff, an element of "pleasing yourself" should be encouraged, otherwise the best staff will find a competitor who puts a better focus on work-life balance.

Don't spit the dummy just because you can't take your holidays when you want, they're paying you to provide a service you can't just please yourself.

Seems reasonable wrecker that's seeking an answer,

When it comes to work I'm very flexible. I need to be. Often I travel abroad for 6weeks at a days notice.

How ever there are two things I've made clear.

If I've booked holidays 6months in advance you better have a good operational reason to.cancel them and it will cost you.

If you won't approve them 6 months out ..... Well you'll find I'll suddenly be alot less flexible.

I'd start looking for a new job as well. Sounds like you work for a ****.

Stuff that. If they want happy staff, an element of "pleasing yourself" should be encouraged, otherwise the best staff will find a competitor who puts a better focus on work-life balance.

😀

The me, myself, I generation. Lets have it all.

I could add my tuppence but I have just had six weeks off and am too busy trying to find where I put the iron at the start of July 😛

In my career getting two weeks' holiday was the norm. Now I'm expected to believe I was asking too much. I'd rather believe it's a poor employer who can't plan ahead.

If Mrs OP is so essential to the company, she's due a rise.

The me, myself, I generation. Lets have it all.

I dont think a fortnights holiday in half a years time is unreasonable.

OK, in the real world.......unless there are clauses in her contract specifically stating two weeks hols is forbidden then the only reason the employer can refuse the two weeks is if the business is unable to function without them, if its been done on a whim and without president its actually very good grounds towards constructive dismissal, get your partner to ask the company for there reasons of refusal in writing.

[quote="teamhurtmore"]The me, myself, I generation. Lets have it all.ahha. You're the dictatorial cockwomble.

I'm not sure what would hustler lives in.

I'm not sure what would hustler lives in.

He lives in a Penthouse.

Oops! World not would. 😳

'm not sure what would hustler lives in.
He lives in a Penthouse.

I always thought two weeks away was pretty normal, miners fortnight for example when I was growing up in the Valleys.

In Sweden they pretty much have August off, the whole place moves very slowly in August.

The me, myself, I generation. Lets have it all.

For wanting two weeks' holiday out of an entire year with like nine months notice? Have a word with yourself.

As a wise man said earlier, stuff that. You work to live, not the other way round.

Employers don't "give" or "allow" leave. It's a contractual and legal obligation. In her position I would notify the absence and take it.

Yeah that's not how it works Captain. You're entitled to a minimum amount of holidays by law, you're not entitled to take them when you feel like it. That would be classed as unauthorised absence to which they could refuse to pay.

After you Coug's, but I will let you have a word with yourself about reading what is actually written before jumping in.

I am all in favour of 2 weeks, indeed i insist on it - its in everyone's contract. I am less inclined towards the sentiments expressed in the pleasing yourself idea though, despite its growing popularity. What next a thread where someone admits to doing a crap job and then moans when his boss picks him up for it???

Well put Drac.

What next a thread where someone admits to doing a crap job and then moans when his boss picks him up for it???

We're due one.

Another????

Unless the employer can give good reason why the request can't be handled they don't have a leg to stand on. She's an employee not a slave.

the sentiments expressed in the pleasing yourself idea though, despite its growing popularity. What next a thread where someone admits to doing a crap job and then moans when his boss picks him up for it?

The me, myself, I generation. Lets have it all.

Secondly there is no relationship between requesting a two week holiday and being crap at your job. if you want to try and compare two completely unrelated things - the only common thing being they are work related - then dont let me stop you but its ludicrous and you know it.

Yup team.

"We can't spare any staff off for that week."

"We already have a member of staff off that week."

"All annual leave is planned by us as your employer"

Once again. Employees are not entitled to select their annual leave.

Annual leave is taken by mutual consent.

Are the storm pictures up north on the tellie yet? They seem particularly violent this morning. Hope everyone is safe.

After you Coug's, but I will let you have a word with yourself about reading what is actually written before jumping in.

Sincere apologies, I shouldn't post before coffee.

Accepted 😉 enjoy the coffee

To the OP, request a formal reason and go from there. Half the team may be out at the same time, it might be school holidays etc and the team will all be out the office. Could be perfectly understandable, and hopefully is a simple misunderstanding that can be resolved by a grown up chat. But check whats in the contract, and linked HR policy for clarification. If 2 weeks is not prohibited or mentioned, then it would be at employers discretion which would be not unreasonably withheld. Without a specific reason (major project, whole team out already), then this would be deemed an unreasonable withholding of time off.

If this kind of chat is not possible within an HR team (which I believe the OP said she is in), I suspect the environment is toxic so would concentrate on finding another job as already said.

As already said employees cannot dictate annual leave, but employers have to reasonable. Reasonable is not withholding it because a manager has had one day off in the last 15 years, and they will give up all weekends to tidy the paperclips and complaining that the youth of today are unreasonable as they won't to receive part of their package that was offered in the terms of employment.

I advise anyone who thinks that 3 weeks off is a good idea to consider the above carefully

I would expect anyone to be able to take 3 weeks off and the company doesn't collapse, it points to bad management really if thats not the case, especially with that much notice.

If I can't do 3 weeks out of the office, then I haven't delegated to anyone else or managed my customers properly.

If my team can't do three weeks out of the office, then I would say they screwed up delegation, handovers etc.

The only reason that I could be deemed critical is I am needed to physically sign contracts - but again I would have planned the big activities around my leave, or delegated rights to someone else.

Making yourself only be needed because you have run your team so badly it falls apart without you would cause me far greater concern.

The me, myself, I generation. Lets have it all.

More "the me, and my employer jointly agreeing what is right for all and reflecting whats in her contract generation, then talk about it as adults" but not quite as catchy.

I personally never take leave, but I run my own business so I have signed up for something different than an employee, but I accept that being flat out really does result in a lower overall performance, and I encourage my team to take all there time off, and not in odd days - at least one proper break a year of several weeks.

But if I want it, it's my 100% right, I wouldn't accept an employer keeping half my pay and me say nothing, and my holiday is part of my pay.

Anyway the job market is changing and perms will one day be a thing of the past. Contracting for multiple clients is far more rewarding anyway, to do a perm role there must be something very specific you want out of it IMO. This will leave lots of people feeling very lost, as there sense of worth will be taken away by not being tied to their employer day and night for years.

On the other hand, employers will pay for outputs, employees will focus on what they are doing - not just turning the handle and both sides will have greater flexibility. But you need something specific to sell

There will be a forgotten portion of the workforce that have nothing specific to add, and will get trapped in the 0 hours contract for slave employers - this needs to be thought about

Gone off at a tangent but what I am trying to say is all the people claiming or inferring they are martyrs for their companies, are admired by some and loved by a few as a role model - but are also seen as mugs that allow for companies not managing themselves properly.

mynamesnotbob - unfortunately there is no need for employers to be reasonable over annual leave. NO legal onus on them.

Otherwise bang on with your post.

Bob - yes, Drac covered that idea well

The only reason that I could be deemed critical is I am needed to physically sign contracts - but again I would have planned the big activities around my leave, or delegated rights to someone else.

In other professional services/advisory/financial services firms personal contribution and client contact is more important and frequent. Context is important.

In other professional services/advisory/financial services firms personal contribution and client contact is more important and frequent. Context is important.

Agree - The areas you mention is exactly my service and specialist industry, and as ex big 4 and now running a smaller firm of advisory teams, refusing 2 weeks or 3 weeks for a single team member with 9 months notice just points to bad contract and client management.

We are typically embedded on client site most of the time, so also have to fit into client team planning and HR policies, not by obligation but by being human. We are normally the backstop in keeping projects running as clients will all go off at the same time and not manage themselves properly.

This is far away from what was asked by the OP, but professional services firms seem keen to manage themselves in a way that delivers short term gains at the expense of long term client satisfaction and employee health, and employees often see failed marriages, poor states of mental health and high levels of addiction as a badge of honour - happy to have waved goodbye to those badges and let others take them.

Client engagement should never fall to one man - with the obvious exception of one man bands

Just checked my company's employment policy.

Leave of ten days needs at least one months notice.
Consecutive leave of more than ten days needs director approval.

The latter is pretty easy to get if it does not cause operational issues - e.g. if you work in a team with colleagues who have school age kids do not expect requests for leave in August to be approved. It is generally non UK/EU workers who take this as they want a long holiday in their home country.

I sometimes feel that my employer is a bit rubbish but at least they are reasonable on the employment policy front which is worth a lot I guess.

To the OP if you do go to HR do not expect them to be on your side. In my experience they tend to support managers rather than employees unless the manager is really out of line (which could be the case in this instance).

"All annual leave is planned by us as your employer"

If anyone ever said this to me, they would suddenly find a positive, conscientious employee become very inflexible indeed.

I worked somewhere that they made us take two weeks at Christmas and new year as the whole place closed down. Kiwiland, and you get a lot less leave than softie European countries, this caused much mumping esp among the non-Christian staff.

So you got stuck with hols when the weather was the stinkiest hot and the roads were busy.

Could be worse !

If anyone ever said this to me, they would suddenly find a positive, conscientious employee become very inflexible indeed.

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as i recall holiday pay is accrued throughout the year, so 20 days a year (plus bank holidays) so that means you earn roughly 1.66 days a month. taking a holiday at the beginning of may would mean you only had accrued roughly 6.6 days money, and so you might not have 10 days holiday money anyway. before you tell me off i work in an industry that people do disappear on a whim, so generally we only pay what has been accrued
i think, that you have to submit a holiday/leave request twice the amount of time before you want. so if you want one week you must request it two weeks prior and the employer must tell you no later than a week prior whether it will be granted.
i also think that even if you have agreed on the length of your leave, depending on things like cash flow, that the employer doesnt actually have to pay you at the time of your holiday !!
These are what i think to be true, i am pretty sure, but am not stating it as fact.
im pretty sure most companies given enough notice would grant the holiday you request, unless they did actually have a good reason, we usually do, i dont remember saying no once in the last 20 days. we have a holiday chart that is filled in and employees are expected to look at that to see if the dates they want are free and not already taken by another employee.

we are a good company and the owners are very fair, personally i cant stand anyone who says take a sickie and hopes to get paid for it when they arent actually ill!!

light touch paper and retire 🙂

Do you not think it reasonable drac? It's a give and take thing, if my employer decided to only give meleave when they feel like it because they can, whatever could be more reasonable than an employee acting in exactly the same way?
Rule 1 applies to employers too.

Lester - they do have to pay you ( but only what you have accumulated) Rest of what you say is right but you have a statutory right to holiday pay.

I'm not sure what would hustler lives in.

MY MANAGER WILL NOT AGREE TO ANY OF THE ANNUAL LEAVE DATES THAT I HAVE SUBMITTED. HOW CAN I RESOLVE THIS?
Consult your contract and staff handbook which should set out your annual leave entitlement. Your contract may also identify any restrictions concerning when annual leave may be taken.

Under the Working Time Regulations 1998 (WTR), individuals should normally only be required to give a notice period of twice as long as the leave that they intend to take (e.g. to ask to take a week's holiday two weeks in advance). However, it is not unusual for holiday entitlements to be subject to the operational requirements of the organisation. Such restrictions might only allow you to take annual leave at certain times of the year, for example at company shutdown times. The organisation may also limit the number of days that may be taken at any one time.

Speak to your manager to see whether you can negotiate a period to take your annual leave which suits both you and the organisation. If annual leave periods are flexible and your manager is refusing any dates you suggest, check whether the dates you suggest coincide with busy periods of work. Talk to work colleagues and find out when they have requested their annual leave for, how much notice they gave and whether your dates clash with theirs, or whether they have suffered similar responses from the manager.

If work colleagues have been granted their requests for leave, and your dates do not coincide with busy periods, then take the matter up with senior management. Speak to your union representative if you are a member of a union. If these informal methods of enquiry fail, you may have to pursue your case through your organisation's formal grievance procedure.

If, despite raising a formal grievance, your manager refuses you all or part of your leave entitlement (i.e. you are prevented from taking your full quota), consider whether to bring a tribunal claim. Before contacting the employment tribunal, you need to contact ACAS by submitting an Acas Early Conciliation Notification Form under the Early Conciliation rules. It is no longer possible to make a claim in the employment tribunal until you have first taken this step.

There are short deadlines involved in bringing any tribunal claim. See our section on Enforcing your Rights for more information on bringing a tribunal claim.

From the TUC website........pretty much a longer explanation of what I said above

I think you misunderstand what it says.

Do you not think it reasonable drac? It's a give and take thing, if my employer decided to only give meleave when they feel like it because they can, whatever could be more reasonable than an employee acting in exactly the same way?

Flexibility is needed by both, saying I'm taking my holidays then and you can lump isn't being flexible.

Flexibility is needed by both, saying I'm taking my holidays then and you can lump isn't being flexible.

1. they are asking for hols [b][u]NEXT[/b][/u] year

2

Under the Working Time Regulations 1998 (WTR), individuals should normally only be required to give a notice period of twice as long as the leave that they intend to take (e.g. to ask to take a week's holiday two weeks in advance). However, it is not unusual for holiday entitlements to be subject to the operational requirements of the organisation. Such restrictions might only allow you to take annual leave at certain times of the year, for example at company shutdown times. The organisation may also limit the number of days that may be taken at any one time.