[Closed] Employer refusing annual leave

The me, myself, I generation. Lets have it all.

I dont think a fortnights holiday in half a years time is unreasonable.

OK, in the real world.......unless there are clauses in her contract specifically stating two weeks hols is forbidden then the only reason the employer can refuse the two weeks is if the business is unable to function without them, if its been done on a whim and without president its actually very good grounds towards constructive dismissal, get your partner to ask the company for there reasons of refusal in writing.

[quote="teamhurtmore"]The me, myself, I generation. Lets have it all.ahha. You're the dictatorial cockwomble.

I'm not sure what would hustler lives in.

I'm not sure what would hustler lives in.

He lives in a Penthouse.

Oops! World not would. 😳

'm not sure what would hustler lives in.
He lives in a Penthouse.

I always thought two weeks away was pretty normal, miners fortnight for example when I was growing up in the Valleys.

In Sweden they pretty much have August off, the whole place moves very slowly in August.

The me, myself, I generation. Lets have it all.

For wanting two weeks' holiday out of an entire year with like nine months notice? Have a word with yourself.

As a wise man said earlier, stuff that. You work to live, not the other way round.

Employers don't "give" or "allow" leave. It's a contractual and legal obligation. In her position I would notify the absence and take it.

Yeah that's not how it works Captain. You're entitled to a minimum amount of holidays by law, you're not entitled to take them when you feel like it. That would be classed as unauthorised absence to which they could refuse to pay.

After you Coug's, but I will let you have a word with yourself about reading what is actually written before jumping in.

I am all in favour of 2 weeks, indeed i insist on it - its in everyone's contract. I am less inclined towards the sentiments expressed in the pleasing yourself idea though, despite its growing popularity. What next a thread where someone admits to doing a crap job and then moans when his boss picks him up for it???

Well put Drac.

What next a thread where someone admits to doing a crap job and then moans when his boss picks him up for it???

We're due one.

Another????

Unless the employer can give good reason why the request can't be handled they don't have a leg to stand on. She's an employee not a slave.

the sentiments expressed in the pleasing yourself idea though, despite its growing popularity. What next a thread where someone admits to doing a crap job and then moans when his boss picks him up for it?

The me, myself, I generation. Lets have it all.

Secondly there is no relationship between requesting a two week holiday and being crap at your job. if you want to try and compare two completely unrelated things - the only common thing being they are work related - then dont let me stop you but its ludicrous and you know it.

Yup team.

"We can't spare any staff off for that week."

"We already have a member of staff off that week."

"All annual leave is planned by us as your employer"

Once again. Employees are not entitled to select their annual leave.

Annual leave is taken by mutual consent.

Are the storm pictures up north on the tellie yet? They seem particularly violent this morning. Hope everyone is safe.

After you Coug's, but I will let you have a word with yourself about reading what is actually written before jumping in.

Sincere apologies, I shouldn't post before coffee.

Accepted 😉 enjoy the coffee

To the OP, request a formal reason and go from there. Half the team may be out at the same time, it might be school holidays etc and the team will all be out the office. Could be perfectly understandable, and hopefully is a simple misunderstanding that can be resolved by a grown up chat. But check whats in the contract, and linked HR policy for clarification. If 2 weeks is not prohibited or mentioned, then it would be at employers discretion which would be not unreasonably withheld. Without a specific reason (major project, whole team out already), then this would be deemed an unreasonable withholding of time off.

If this kind of chat is not possible within an HR team (which I believe the OP said she is in), I suspect the environment is toxic so would concentrate on finding another job as already said.

As already said employees cannot dictate annual leave, but employers have to reasonable. Reasonable is not withholding it because a manager has had one day off in the last 15 years, and they will give up all weekends to tidy the paperclips and complaining that the youth of today are unreasonable as they won't to receive part of their package that was offered in the terms of employment.

I advise anyone who thinks that 3 weeks off is a good idea to consider the above carefully

I would expect anyone to be able to take 3 weeks off and the company doesn't collapse, it points to bad management really if thats not the case, especially with that much notice.

If I can't do 3 weeks out of the office, then I haven't delegated to anyone else or managed my customers properly.

If my team can't do three weeks out of the office, then I would say they screwed up delegation, handovers etc.

The only reason that I could be deemed critical is I am needed to physically sign contracts - but again I would have planned the big activities around my leave, or delegated rights to someone else.

Making yourself only be needed because you have run your team so badly it falls apart without you would cause me far greater concern.

The me, myself, I generation. Lets have it all.

More "the me, and my employer jointly agreeing what is right for all and reflecting whats in her contract generation, then talk about it as adults" but not quite as catchy.

I personally never take leave, but I run my own business so I have signed up for something different than an employee, but I accept that being flat out really does result in a lower overall performance, and I encourage my team to take all there time off, and not in odd days - at least one proper break a year of several weeks.

But if I want it, it's my 100% right, I wouldn't accept an employer keeping half my pay and me say nothing, and my holiday is part of my pay.

Anyway the job market is changing and perms will one day be a thing of the past. Contracting for multiple clients is far more rewarding anyway, to do a perm role there must be something very specific you want out of it IMO. This will leave lots of people feeling very lost, as there sense of worth will be taken away by not being tied to their employer day and night for years.

On the other hand, employers will pay for outputs, employees will focus on what they are doing - not just turning the handle and both sides will have greater flexibility. But you need something specific to sell

There will be a forgotten portion of the workforce that have nothing specific to add, and will get trapped in the 0 hours contract for slave employers - this needs to be thought about

Gone off at a tangent but what I am trying to say is all the people claiming or inferring they are martyrs for their companies, are admired by some and loved by a few as a role model - but are also seen as mugs that allow for companies not managing themselves properly.

mynamesnotbob - unfortunately there is no need for employers to be reasonable over annual leave. NO legal onus on them.

Otherwise bang on with your post.

Bob - yes, Drac covered that idea well

The only reason that I could be deemed critical is I am needed to physically sign contracts - but again I would have planned the big activities around my leave, or delegated rights to someone else.

In other professional services/advisory/financial services firms personal contribution and client contact is more important and frequent. Context is important.

In other professional services/advisory/financial services firms personal contribution and client contact is more important and frequent. Context is important.

Agree - The areas you mention is exactly my service and specialist industry, and as ex big 4 and now running a smaller firm of advisory teams, refusing 2 weeks or 3 weeks for a single team member with 9 months notice just points to bad contract and client management.

We are typically embedded on client site most of the time, so also have to fit into client team planning and HR policies, not by obligation but by being human. We are normally the backstop in keeping projects running as clients will all go off at the same time and not manage themselves properly.

This is far away from what was asked by the OP, but professional services firms seem keen to manage themselves in a way that delivers short term gains at the expense of long term client satisfaction and employee health, and employees often see failed marriages, poor states of mental health and high levels of addiction as a badge of honour - happy to have waved goodbye to those badges and let others take them.

Client engagement should never fall to one man - with the obvious exception of one man bands

Just checked my company's employment policy.

Leave of ten days needs at least one months notice.
Consecutive leave of more than ten days needs director approval.

The latter is pretty easy to get if it does not cause operational issues - e.g. if you work in a team with colleagues who have school age kids do not expect requests for leave in August to be approved. It is generally non UK/EU workers who take this as they want a long holiday in their home country.

I sometimes feel that my employer is a bit rubbish but at least they are reasonable on the employment policy front which is worth a lot I guess.

To the OP if you do go to HR do not expect them to be on your side. In my experience they tend to support managers rather than employees unless the manager is really out of line (which could be the case in this instance).

"All annual leave is planned by us as your employer"

If anyone ever said this to me, they would suddenly find a positive, conscientious employee become very inflexible indeed.

I worked somewhere that they made us take two weeks at Christmas and new year as the whole place closed down. Kiwiland, and you get a lot less leave than softie European countries, this caused much mumping esp among the non-Christian staff.

So you got stuck with hols when the weather was the stinkiest hot and the roads were busy.

Could be worse !

If anyone ever said this to me, they would suddenly find a positive, conscientious employee become very inflexible indeed.

[img] [/img]

as i recall holiday pay is accrued throughout the year, so 20 days a year (plus bank holidays) so that means you earn roughly 1.66 days a month. taking a holiday at the beginning of may would mean you only had accrued roughly 6.6 days money, and so you might not have 10 days holiday money anyway. before you tell me off i work in an industry that people do disappear on a whim, so generally we only pay what has been accrued
i think, that you have to submit a holiday/leave request twice the amount of time before you want. so if you want one week you must request it two weeks prior and the employer must tell you no later than a week prior whether it will be granted.
i also think that even if you have agreed on the length of your leave, depending on things like cash flow, that the employer doesnt actually have to pay you at the time of your holiday !!
These are what i think to be true, i am pretty sure, but am not stating it as fact.
im pretty sure most companies given enough notice would grant the holiday you request, unless they did actually have a good reason, we usually do, i dont remember saying no once in the last 20 days. we have a holiday chart that is filled in and employees are expected to look at that to see if the dates they want are free and not already taken by another employee.

we are a good company and the owners are very fair, personally i cant stand anyone who says take a sickie and hopes to get paid for it when they arent actually ill!!

light touch paper and retire 🙂

Do you not think it reasonable drac? It's a give and take thing, if my employer decided to only give meleave when they feel like it because they can, whatever could be more reasonable than an employee acting in exactly the same way?
Rule 1 applies to employers too.

Lester - they do have to pay you ( but only what you have accumulated) Rest of what you say is right but you have a statutory right to holiday pay.

I'm not sure what would hustler lives in.

MY MANAGER WILL NOT AGREE TO ANY OF THE ANNUAL LEAVE DATES THAT I HAVE SUBMITTED. HOW CAN I RESOLVE THIS?
Consult your contract and staff handbook which should set out your annual leave entitlement. Your contract may also identify any restrictions concerning when annual leave may be taken.

Under the Working Time Regulations 1998 (WTR), individuals should normally only be required to give a notice period of twice as long as the leave that they intend to take (e.g. to ask to take a week's holiday two weeks in advance). However, it is not unusual for holiday entitlements to be subject to the operational requirements of the organisation. Such restrictions might only allow you to take annual leave at certain times of the year, for example at company shutdown times. The organisation may also limit the number of days that may be taken at any one time.

Speak to your manager to see whether you can negotiate a period to take your annual leave which suits both you and the organisation. If annual leave periods are flexible and your manager is refusing any dates you suggest, check whether the dates you suggest coincide with busy periods of work. Talk to work colleagues and find out when they have requested their annual leave for, how much notice they gave and whether your dates clash with theirs, or whether they have suffered similar responses from the manager.

If work colleagues have been granted their requests for leave, and your dates do not coincide with busy periods, then take the matter up with senior management. Speak to your union representative if you are a member of a union. If these informal methods of enquiry fail, you may have to pursue your case through your organisation's formal grievance procedure.

If, despite raising a formal grievance, your manager refuses you all or part of your leave entitlement (i.e. you are prevented from taking your full quota), consider whether to bring a tribunal claim. Before contacting the employment tribunal, you need to contact ACAS by submitting an Acas Early Conciliation Notification Form under the Early Conciliation rules. It is no longer possible to make a claim in the employment tribunal until you have first taken this step.

There are short deadlines involved in bringing any tribunal claim. See our section on Enforcing your Rights for more information on bringing a tribunal claim.

From the TUC website........pretty much a longer explanation of what I said above

I think you misunderstand what it says.

Do you not think it reasonable drac? It's a give and take thing, if my employer decided to only give meleave when they feel like it because they can, whatever could be more reasonable than an employee acting in exactly the same way?

Flexibility is needed by both, saying I'm taking my holidays then and you can lump isn't being flexible.

Flexibility is needed by both, saying I'm taking my holidays then and you can lump isn't being flexible.

1. they are asking for hols [b][u]NEXT[/b][/u] year

2

Under the Working Time Regulations 1998 (WTR), individuals should normally only be required to give a notice period of twice as long as the leave that they intend to take (e.g. to ask to take a week's holiday two weeks in advance). However, it is not unusual for holiday entitlements to be subject to the operational requirements of the organisation. Such restrictions might only allow you to take annual leave at certain times of the year, for example at company shutdown times. The organisation may also limit the number of days that may be taken at any one time.

It does yes.

However, it is not unusual for holiday entitlements to be subject to the operational requirements of the organisation. Such restrictions might only allow you to take annual leave at certain times of the year, for example at company shutdown times. The organisation may also limit the number of days that may be taken at any one time.

But the employer have not given any operational difficulties as reason for refusal, this woulsd then mean they are being unreasonable.

Flexibility is needed by both, saying I'm taking my holidays then and you can lump isn't being flexible.

Wreckers view is pretty reasonable

2 weeks holiday with 9 month notice is not exactly an unreasonable request and its highly unlikely the company will collapse without this minor employee

Dictating holidays is one thing refusing them routinely another

FWIW we had this when they banned all holidays for a 4 month period - it was jan to may s few cared. However it then meant it was literally impossible " due to cover and limits of numbers per week" for us to all take our holidays in our team and they would not let folk carry them over

This, not unreasonably, led to many unhappy employees and the worst year of sickness our team ever had.

Its a relationship and when one side is unreasonable - employee or employer, then things get messy

The employer is being highly inflexible

one thing that may not have been mentioned.

my employer will only allocate next years leave january 1st you cannot book prior to jan 1st.

But the employer have not given any operational difficulties as reason for refusal, this woulsd then mean they are being unreasonable.

Did they not? All we have is the OPs version his GF's version of events.

I think we broadly agree, I'm just saying that flexibility works both ways.

We are agreeing but your post I responded to with pic sounded like a kid stamping the feet and saying no. 😀

The employer is being highly inflexible

I'm not sure we have enough details to call that.

Drac you may be an admin, but get out of your arse, you know no more facts than us, with the informatin given everything the OP's girlfriend has done has been more than 'reasonable and flexible'!! Joust because [b][u]YOU[/b][/u] are making assumptions about needs of the business doesn't make you right, just someone spoiling for an argument. Not a great position for an admin.

So as it stands without further info the employers are being an arse end of....

...with further info that it might affect unduly the running of the business then they may have a valid argument.

Blimey.

Have you read my original post before you went on your rampage?

Things might have changed but in banking there was a restriction in annual leave when the banking exams were taking place (April/May IIRC).

My current employer has a "no holidays" rule in July/August as this is peak tourist season.

I'd imagine that other industries have similar restrictions, but I'd expect them to be similarly justified.

Drac you may be an admin,

Not that his status is remotely relevant to the discussion but, no he isn't.