Nobeerinthefridge - I agree with you, and suspect that’s probably what will happen.
I've not read all the details. It there maybe more to this story than excessive travel/poor equipment/inexperience? I think there would really need to be unless they're being made an example which also has issues.
maybe more to this story than excessive travel/poor equipment/inexperience
My suspicion is they got extremely arsey when questioned about what they were up to, and that's led to this rather than a stern talking to
I climb one of my local Munros, trip and fall, and have to call out MR, am I likely to be charged?
What if it's only a Corbett?
If I drive 25 miles in my car just to sit at a river and am involved in a collision that requires the emergency services, will I be charged?
I really would like to see in particular they're being accused of. It's easy to pick on this pair and ignore the thousands of folk who are driving around unnecessarily. A road block at Luss would have sent a better signal.
My suspicion is they got extremely arsey
That was my first thought too. Or maybe they were pished up? Who knows, you rarely get the full story much less the nuance on these things.
A road block at Luss would have sent a better signal.
I see they're showing repeats of Take the High Road now. Just when I thought things couldn't get worse...
I think that the charges have to be for publicity, bad news for the "carrier bag of Stella." Crew if that is a direction we are going. As for the driving bit, it is guidance; which she further watered down on the Friday.
A road block at Luss would have sent a better signal.
it would, but I kinda feel the police are stretched.
Was out on sunday for a spin, passed finnich glen (devils pulpit) outside killearn. a large police van parked where is normally loads of cars, area all taped off. down the road, lots of parked cars wherever they could fit, but another police van and officers telling people to pack up and go somewhere else. saw some officers in the field on the way to the glen too.
met a few folk I knew along the westie, saying aberfoyle was mobbed, as was mugdock. Mugdock I can understand, being 5 or so miles out of glasgow, so within guidance reach.
get home to find about 30 teenagers wandering to the nearby field, hugging, kissing, being druken. normal teenage stuff really. they were later followed by about 6 officers (not hugging or kissing....), who'd been dispersing groups hanging about the canal and down the river kelvin at the bottom of the nearby golf course.
however, the canal path is quieter now than it has been. back to normal levels of traffic, and most are distancing appropriatly, whereas before, it was 50/50 whether you'd manage to get enough space. I'd been avoiding it if I could.
it's a bit cooler now, so maybe it'll calm down a bit.
The Scottish police have made it very clear that their tactics during this pandemic is:
Engage, explain, encourage and enforce.
So the pair that have been charged most likely failed some aspect of the "engagement, explaination and encouragement".
MRT have made it clear that the mountains are open to those that are lucky enough to have them locally - and that they will rescue anyone needing assistance.
IMHO, it's unfair to expect them to rescue poorly equipped folk that have travelled a long way in the current circumstances.
Seems an odd hill to pick to climb.
Lot of what's there scotroutes.
I think you know the answer to all of them though.
The reason I'm not comfortable with this is the vagueness of the supposed crime. If it was travelling 60 miles at this time, then thousands have been guilty and ignored.
If it was being unprepared and putting other folk at risk then it opens the door to all sorts of prosecutions the next time there is so much as a poor weather warning from our increasingly hyperbolic forecasters.
MRT have made it clear that the mountains are open to those that are lucky enough to have them locally – and that they will rescue anyone needing assistance.
IMHO, it’s unfair to expect them to rescue poorly equipped folk that have travelled a long way in the current circumstances.
Local rescue for local people?
The reason I’m not comfortable with this is the vagueness of the supposed crime.
Maybe it was a combination of a number of those things (and more) that led to the charges - so would be difficult for this scenario to set a precedent. Without knowing the details though, it's difficult to comment further.
Local rescue for local people?
Essentially, yes. Under the present guidelines, you should only be in the mountains if they're local to you (circa 5 miles).
If any of the motorbikers on the A82 last weekend had crashed more than 5 miles from home would they have been charged?
Quite possibly yes.
I think that the charges have to be for publicity
Also my thought. Initially charged, then given a warning before the charges are quietly dropped.
Essentially, yes. Under the present guidelines, you should only be in the mountains if they’re local to you (circa 5 miles).
But the 5 mile thing is not law so MRT policy quite rightly remains what it has always been: that they will turn out to rescue anyone in trouble unless circumstances mean they physically can't which is increasingly unlikely as Covid cases fall. Even if it were law I suspect they would still have such a policy.
Voluntary body or not, deciding not to rescue someone based on a value judgement like where they've traveled from or their level of equipment is a very slippery slope and quite clearly not one MRT want to go down even in the current unusual circumstances.
they will turn out to rescue anyone in trouble
@spin I've never suggested that MRT wouldn't rescue anyone in trouble, and I don't know why you'd suggest I had.
They have however said that people should follow the guidelines and only head to the mountains if they're local.
But none of that speaks to why these 2 individuals have been charged.
squirrelking
Member
I don’t remember tolerance of potentially deadly communicable viruses being on the description.
But they don't mind the risk as long as you break your ankle on a hill 5 miles from home. Funnily enough the other emergency services have just got on with the job using PPE where appropriate.
If there was that high a risk to MRT or ambulance crews dealing with casualties then outdoor recreation would not have been unlocked in the first place.
From Scottish Mountain Rescue "guidance and information regarding the ongoing Covid-19 outbreak", 22 May:
Should I feel guilty if I need to call MR?
No, accidents happen, we would be concerned if you didn’t call us. We are here to help, not judge.
https://www.scottishmountainrescue.org/covid-19-information/ 2
Breaches are happening left right and centre, there isn't the manpower, will or political idiocy to charge everyone.
To charge the worst offenders so the rest maybe think about what they are doing (if so capable) seems reasonable to me.
No doubt some will see it as a Sumption style human rights issue!
Funnily enough the other emergency services have just got on with the job using PPE where appropriate.
The other emergency services ain't volunteers, did actually get this pair off the hill, and it was the polis that charged them, not MRT.
I'm going for Spins theory that they were being arsey, and also agree with cynic al.
Important to remember that the guidance isn't the law, and the laws are emergency ones which are hastily drafted without parliamentary scrutiny.
They're essentially a blunt tool about enforcing a reduction in a public health issue, not typical law and order/justice. I imagine a lot of fines etc would be overturned later (imagine people fined for doing what Cummings did) - but that isn't what's important as that is in the future, and the present is the main issue right now.
I’ve never suggested that MRT wouldn’t rescue anyone in trouble, and I don’t know why you’d suggest I had.
Well you did say "IMHO, it’s unfair to expect them to rescue poorly equipped folk that have traveled a long way in the current circumstances." Not sure what that could mean other than that you don't think they should be expected to rescue certain people.
So is proper riding back on the cards?
Lewis Buchanan thinks so, as long as the rules are followed
The DM Bins press release: http://www.dmbins.com/riders/news/phase-1-covid-19-guidance-for-mountain-bikers
However, Forestry Commission still showing the likes of Glentress marked stuff as closed
https://forestryandland.gov.scot/visit/forest-parks/tweed-valley-forest-park/glentress#bike
Confusing much???
Mega gnar off piste stuff is ok, official stuff isnt?
Off out tonight for first ride with a mate since all this started, just a wee explore of the local hills.
Happy days.
Lewis should be banged up for breaching government guidelines on missuse of the past participle...
I always think the trail centres are more dangerous than the off piste stuff because your speed is higher and your focus lower plus NY,NY and Repeat Offender are the Golfie's two easiest trails.
Is Glentress still shut?
Lewis Buchanan is pushing the boundaries if you ask me. fortunatly for many of you I am not in charge.
the key point would be "Ride well within your limits – only ride on trails that are that you have ridden before and you are very confident you will be able to ride safely and within your ability"
Is Golfie not a trail centre in all but official designation?
Is Golfie not a trail centre in all but official designation?
No.
I believe there are a couple of officially sanctioned trails now that one of the valley groups is in charge of maintaining, but there's no signposting, no official trail grading etc
It's a bunch of hand built trails on a hill
Is Glentress still shut?
According to the FC site, yes
I'll be riding a full 11 miles from my house tonight, on a hill I've never rode before, so couldn't possibly comment.
“Ride well within your limits – only ride on trails that are that you have ridden before and you are very confident you will be able to ride safely and within your ability”
Good advice.
Care to dish it out too my 15 year old who fell on a flat corner last night, goofing up his arm with gravel rash from wrist to elbow last night?
Moments after his brother had said 'oooh, slow down, this corners as loose as....'
Hardly any cases round here and A&E docs/nurses are basically scratching their arses so I'm quite content to go back to riding whatever passed as Gnar for me prior to lockdown.
Hmmm, might give the Golfie a burl.
Can ride my bike but not my bird, lol:cry
Shouldn't have sold that Bird Zero as I am getting zero bird right now.
Lol @ YGH!
Lovely ride tonight exploring the locals, found a gorgeous climb too, on perfectly dry grassy doubletrack.
FC guidance is
Stick to low impact activities such as walking, jogging or low-level cycling. Our mountain bike trails remain closed.
Matt - trust your 15yr-old is OK.
Plenty of slow-speed accidents happening at the moment and FVR is happy to treat them. (Not forgetting the MTBer who degloved his arm on gravel at Logie Kirk - requiring an ambulance to be called out. Yuk!)
Surely the whole point about the no travel is that there are no facilities open . If you can't get there and back without a piss - don't do it (based on Scottish CMO radio interview last Saturday)
Although another more appropriate marker might be - will I end up in my home hospital if things go wrong?
@StirlingCrispin - he's all good. Happened above Witches, just above Logie Kirk 🤔
Not as bad as the initial amount of claret suggested.
I think we're going to see rural communities pushing back against visitors for the summer. Stirling council have scrolling signs up reminding folk not to travel, that car parks are closed and generally 'go away' messages on busier roads into the Trossachs.
Many local communities are keeping car parks and honey pots taped off.
I can see the start of July being very challenging, I'm almost hoping for sh*t weather...
If you can’t get there and back without a piss – don’t do it (based on Scottish CMO radio interview last Saturday)
I heard that, and still struggle to see the big danger in that. I was out for 3.5hrs last night, never took a piss, but had a wee bottle of hand gel with me if I did, even if I didn't have that hand gel, I'm touching nothing but my bike whilst out.
think we’re going to see rural communities pushing back against visitors for the summer
I think rural communities will be pretty divided on that given the extent to which they rely on tourism.
I really dislike this rural/urban them/us thing that has developed. It's a false dichotomy.
I heard that, and still struggle to see the big danger in that. I was out for 3.5hrs last night, never took a piss, but had a wee bottle of hand gel with me if I did, even if I didn’t have that hand gel, I’m touching nothing but my bike whilst out.
And there's a significant difference between doing a piss against someone's garden wall in Balloch Vs against a tree in the middle of a forest
I think rural communities will be pretty divided on that given the extent to which they rely on tourism.
I really dislike this rural/urban them/us thing that has developed. It’s a false dichotomy.
I also find it slightly hypocritical. Plenty of activity in the urban environment to provide goods and services to rural communities during the lockdown, all raising the risk of transmission there. Seems only balanced that this is reciprocated when risk is lower.
To be fair as we try to emerge from lockdown we'll all need to try to see how the lockdown has been for others. I've worked right through it and live in a fairly remote area. My son has worked right through it but lives in Glasgow had a different experience. My daughter lives in a really remote spot has sometimes gone over a week without seeing anyone.
Absolutely Spin, the folks that have lived there for years will understand the value of the visitor, the folk that have moved there and see it as their wee twee place, less so.
Couple of points:
1 - more people need to learn how to poop outside since there aren't toilets available.
2 - now that we are actually allowed to travel for exercise, maybe the councils should start opening some car parks. All you get now is folk parked along the verges. They can't pretend that people aren't driving to the Pentlands etc - almost all of Edinburgh is within 5 miles of them. And maybe, with that, start working on opening up some toilets - or at least portable urinals (like at a festival)
Well you did say “IMHO, it’s unfair to expect them to rescue poorly equipped folk that have traveled a long way in the current circumstances.” Not sure what that could mean other than that you don’t think they should be expected to rescue certain people.
Or, you know... the other option that the people shouldn't have been there to need rescuing.
Absolutely Spin, the folks that have lived there for years will understand the value of the visitor, the folk that have moved there and see it as their wee twee place, less so.
tosh
Yeah, I don't think it is that clear cut. Locally, many of the loudest voices in favour of a quick resumption of tourism are those who have moved to the area to run B&Bs, cafes, gift shops, galleries etc. and, of course, all the holiday home owners, even though many don't even live here.
Obviously there's exceptions, but in general, every moaning faced roaster you hear whining about the amount of tourists blocking the road to their highland retreats are quite obviously not from that area.
I have no idea if their names are Tosh.
If you can’t get there and back without a piss
This is surely about keeping visits shorter, reducing fatigue, remoteness and risk, rather than transmission risk?
but in general, every moaning faced roaster you hear whining about the amount of tourists blocking the road to their highland retreats are quite obviously not from that area.
I have not seen any of this, do you have an example? what I do see back in the highlands is a lot of remote areas with little local health care and elderly populations worried about the imminent wave of mouth breathers dropping litter and corona everywhere. And if it makes you happier most of them are Scottish 😉
what I do see back in the highlands is a lot of remote areas with little local health care and elderly populations worried about the imminent wave of mouth breathers dropping litter and corona everywhere.
I suspect most of them are quite happy to make use of the nearest urban area for their shopping and healthcare needs so I'm afraid that worried or not they don't get to pull up the drawbridge.
I'm not sure that's entirely fair, healthcare has become massively centralised in the past 30 years. As for shopping, round here at least it seems everyone is buying as local as possible or just going mail order.
On the Lewis Buchanan thing, seems fair enough to me, I've ridden those trails and though they were hard that was because I was riding them blind, they were sopping wet, I was on a massively inappropriate (but fun) hardtail and most importantly I'm nowhere near as good a rider as he is. It's all relative and without an official risk assessment matrix it's all down to personal interpretation.
I suspect most of them are quite happy to make use of the nearest urban area for their shopping and healthcare needs
Or they don't have a choice to use urban areas?
The village I live in is not that remote, we're lucky enough to have a small minor injuries unit (with a handful of beds) and a small Co-Op.
I've been using some local farm shops but weekly shopping for me is a 25 minute drive away. Nearest large hospital is 50 minutes drive.
If the virus was widespread in this community, local services would very quickly become overwhelmed. That's one of the reasons for the restriction on travelling.
What Scotroutes said +1.
Spin I think most folk in the town nearest me, Fort William feel broadly the same about visitors as folk in the outlying villages. Yes we need to start cautiously opening up again. Having been so quiet, with people off work on furlough etc, and having made such strenuous efforts to observe the lockdown there was a bit of a jarring note last weekend when the roads were suddenly busy again. Sure some of that was locals but a lot was not.
With all local tourist businesses still shut (perhaps excepting 1 or 2 sleekit ones letting cottages etc ) even some car parks are shut, there's little or no financial benefit to the local community at this point
Also I lwould like to have services provided reasonably close to where I live Scotland has become over centralised.
Latest from my NHS contacts is the Aberdeen Royal infirmary is very quiet. 2 cases in intensive care, they’re doing outpatient treatments but not many overnights. A&E quite. Looks like it has never been quieter.
Doesn’t mean we have to increase the spread of COVID but it does kill the argument about doing low risk activities to avoid putting extra load on the health service.
I have not seen any of this, do you have an example?
IIRC you live in Denmark? if that's correct, I'm not surprised you haven't seen much of it. Perhaps I wasn't clear, I was not referring to the current crisis per se, I'm talking generally, the annual summer en masse migration to the NC550 brings them onto Radio Scotland on a regular basis.
And if it makes you happier most of them are Scottish 😉
I never said anything about them not being Scots, don't you be putting anti-English words in my mouth, I said they never had local accents, which is entirely different. Same as the borderers that moan about the likes of Tweedlove events, not many of them will have the mother tongue.
Anyway, we're way off topic now, as ever.
Doesn’t mean we have to increase the spread of COVID but it does kill the argument about doing low risk activities to avoid putting extra load on the health service.
Aye, here too, Ayrshire - with a population of nigh on 400,000 currently has less than 20 people in hospital (Not ICU, in hospital) all in.
(Current lack of) pressure on EDs isn't really the issue and shouldn't be used as an indicator of whether it's ok to risk putting more load onto the system.
The issue is the pressure and flow downstream from ED: do you have to go into a bed or a critical care bed. Bed capacity is limited given that capacity and appropriate levels of surge capacity must be allocated to Red covid wards
Edit: this is a reply to the comment that Aberdeen RI ED is quiet
Latest from my NHS contacts is the Aberdeen Royal infirmary is very quiet. 2 cases in intensive care, they’re doing outpatient treatments but not many overnights. A&E quite. Looks like it has never been quieter.Doesn’t mean we have to increase the spread of COVID but it does kill the argument about doing low risk activities to avoid putting extra load on the health service.
Same story in Dundee. According to my doctoring brother the shitstorm never really happened here, he's never seen the hospital so quiet.
Fwiw I started paragliding again last weekend, as I don't see that I'll be causing any hospital capacity issues if I brain myself.
Yeah Matt, they are going to keep that in place all year until the proles can get back to Benidorm.
Aye, here too, Ayrshire – with a population of nigh on 400,000 currently has less than 20 people in hospital (Not ICU, in hospital) all in.
Do you have a source to hand for that?
I was in Perth Royal all day yesterday and it’s quite quiet however as the staff were saying it’s actually more that the first wave has passed so now it’s working out how to manage the micro waves that will start to appear.
Lothian have passe the peak of the first wave. the focus now is on getting things open again without causing a spike in infections. An awful lot of work behind the scenes on infection control and ensuring safety of staff and patients. This takes time but is not obvious work.
It’s not actually as quiet as I thought in ARI. 66 COVID patients 4 in ITU. The virus is still going strong.
Overall the hospital is quiet. It’s a big place.
Yes, it is much more than just how to manage the micro waves. It is about how to manage that, but also how to manage the pent up Urgent and Urgent Suspicion of Cancer demand that stayed away for weeks or even two months (and are now higher risk), and within the context of infection control and limited capacity. And then how to manage the non-Urgent elective patients who were on the waiting list previously and their longer waiting times will start to become a factor in their outcome.
'Quiet' EDs play little into this.
Do you have a source to hand for that?
It was at the bottom if a BBC webpage, I recall reading it on thu night, as I read it out to mrs nobeer (She's a nurse in Ayr hosp) but it's gone now, sorry.
Daily data by health board:
https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-daily-data-for-scotland/
Talking to a guy that works at a track and trace call centre in Selkirk. 50 folk working there and they've had 3 cases. They just sacked some folk and are standing down shifts. They'd just been sent home.half way through. There's just nothing happening.
Daily data by health board:
https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-daily-data-for-scotland//blockquote >
My wife is one of the small team of people (about ten of them) that produces that data, she's pretty stoked that it's made the heady heights of STW.
I've seen their graphs every day for the past two and a half months. The number of cases is falling so slowly that we haven't changed anything about how we act other than having one set of friends in our gardens per day at the weekend (if my wife isn't on the weekend data team). We don't travel to exercise, don't take risks and have only being going to the shop once a month.
Our friends have said we seem to have taken it more strictly than other people they know but the data that my wife has been looking at has probably given us a bigger driver to avoid it than others. It's not over by any means.
For whoever was saying it up there, the Pentlands car parks are now open and exactly what Nicola was trying to avoid is happening.
We hadn't realised they'd opened so we're doing a spin up by Glencorse which has been quiet for weeks. Now there's loads of families walking four abreast, now social distancing when they meet other groups going the other way and pairs of middle aged men sitting in fishing boats about a metre from each other. Shame really, I thought the Scottish public had been doing a better job at being trustworthy during the pandemic.
Shame really, I thought the Scottish public had been doing a better job at being trustworthy during the pandemic.
As ever, the majority have.
A minor percentage break rule No.1, however even a minor percentage is quite a few folks honeypotting to the well known haunts.
So which is more likely to spread the virus?
Lol, maybe choose a picture of the Cobbler path on a sunny weekend, or even the car park at the bottom? Will be heaving probably despite £9 charge...
Is the second a photo from yesterday or just a random shot? Because I doubt it was yesterday now everyone seems to think a 5 mile radius of your home means a fifty mile radius.
Both are likely to spread the virus, one moreso than the other but a trip up the Cobbler poses different risks that pose a threat to the Covid situation in hospitals, and just because the protests are happening doesn't mean you should be breaking other rules. My wife and I wanted to go to the protest at Holyrood today but didn't consider it safe, appropriate or within the guidelines. Similarly, I really want to ride somewhere else and with other people but I'm not driving thirty miles to ride my bike with friends because it's not safe, appropriate or within the guidelines.
It's pretty clear why the 5 mile rule exists- to stop people flocking to the same spots. If it were 20 miles every mountain biker from Edinburgh would flock to Peebles, Glasgow and Stirling to the Trossachs, Perth and Dundee to Dunkeld, Aberdeen to Banchory and Inverness to Aviemore. That's people travelling into different health boards that are more rural and not set up to cope with a large influx of people from outside spannering themselves at the moment, that's lots of people flocking to the same place increasing the risk of the spread.
And the same places that appeal to mountain bikers appeal to walkers, fell runners, mountaineers - add all that up and you get a lot of people in one place potentially spreading the infection and doing activities that are slightly risky and might lead to some small innocuous accident that causes a broken ankle or something that needs attention in the same local rural hospital.
Five miles isn't a number plucked out of thin air. We all want to ride our bikes more interesting places but the pandemic is more important than that. Enjoy riding your bike where you can- any bike ride is a good one.
Enjoy riding your bike where you can- any bike ride is a good one.
Where's that like button?
Yes, I know.
But it’s something, no deaths reported today.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-daily-data-for-scotland/
Also, followed a Twitter link to this;
https://www.travellingtabby.com/scotland-coronavirus-tracker/
No idea how good it is.
It may be a little bit of good news but it's good news all the same.