[Closed] Drinking With Racists

I'm not looking for a history lesson

You mean 'I'm not looking to actually understand the issues and how we got to where we are'

..and that makes it ok to be racist about Poles and Germans?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm arguing. 🙄

By the way, seeing as they are the same race as us it's not racism, it's xenophobia.

Even if it is an insult it's a pretty mild one

So it's ok to be [i]mildly [/i]racist. Ok then.

it doesn't tie in to a history of dehumanising

That may be true; but how far back are we talking now? That poster back there was from the 1800's. I've lived on this Earth for nearly 40 years and I don't think I've ever seen any actual genuine racism from the English directed towards the Irish, Scottish or Welsh. I've seen plenty of banter, and believe me they give at least as good as they get, but our lot really have nothing against the rest of the UK in my experience. Anecdotal I know.

..and that makes it ok to be racist about Poles and Germans?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm arguing

Isn't that what the BNP are arguing as well now?

I did that harvard racism test:

Your data suggest little to no automatic preference between European American and African American.

Get in! I'm really a liberal after all! 🙂

I don't think I've ever seen any actual genuine racism from the English directed towards the Irish, Scottish or Welsh

Mmm, but you are English aren't you? There's a line between banter and abuse, and from many English people the line is crossed constantly. When challenged they roll out the 'I was only joking' defence, which is pretty poor imo.

You mean 'I'm not looking to actually understand the issues and how we got to where we are'

You're assuming I have a lack of understanding. Again, this is your mistake, not mine. I don't believe I've actually mentioned my own personal views once yet.

seeing as they are the same race as us it's not racism, it's xenophobia.

You're not xenophobic if you hate the Polish, you're xenophobic if you hate everyone that's different from you.

Isn't that what the BNP are arguing as well now?

Do I really have to explain that I was being sarcastic?

I've lived on this Earth for nearly 40 years and I don't think I've ever seen any actual genuine racism from the English directed towards the Irish, Scottish or Welsh.

You should try reading some of the comments on Daily Mail articles about the Irish bailout. Also, No Blacks No Dogs No Irish signs outside pubs were still around in the early 80s I believe.

You're assuming I have a lack of understanding. Again, this is your mistake, not mine. I don't believe I've actually mentioned my own personal views once yet.

I haven't assumed anything - I've taken it from your posts which are asking daft questions and your attempts to claim that historical context is irrelevant.

cougar what are you doing here ?this is more of an excercise in you asking questions to someone answering them..it is a simple philosphical technique as ultimately there are more questions than answers.

You debated this on the other thread as well this are you still confused? Surely you get it by now as it is not hard now you may disagree but surely you can see the reason why words mean different things

Again, that's because white people have historically been the colonial masters exploiting/discriminating against just about every other race around the world for the last few hundred years.

And because of this, they have no right to feel offended?
Because some people who I've never met, am not related to and have nothing in common with did some bad things a very long time ago, I have to tolerate intolerance?

you are English aren't you? There's a line between banter and abuse

I am, and yes, I agree.

Are you talking about the terraces here? Generally, I find football fans to be a subspecies of their own rather than representative of people as a whole. (-:

And because of this, they have no right to feel offended?
Because some people who I've never met, am not related to and have nothing in common with did some bad things a very long time ago, I have to tolerate intolerance?

Interesting words you've put in my mouth there. I never suggested anyone should tolerate intolerance, I was just trying to explain for the hard of thinking why some words are generally considered worse than others. Life isn't black and white (no pun intended!) - everything is nuanced and often complicated which is why understanding the cultural/historical context is important. Some people seem to really struggle with that.

What are you offended by backhander?

You should try reading some of the comments on Daily Mail articles

If that's where they hang out then that would explain why I've never come across them.

it is a simple philosphical technique as ultimately there are more questions than answers.

Exactly. Which it's why I find it interesting to discuss. I'm not looking for answers due to a lack of understanding, I'm throwing out a few Devil's Advocate questions to see what people do with them. Which is hardly unusual on here, I'm just a bit more up front about it than most (or at least, I thought I was, people read what they want to read I guess).

surely you can see the reason why words mean different things

Of course. But don't you think that's [i]fascinating?[/i] I know I do.

The Daily Mail is the most read newspaper in the country - I'd wager you know quite a few people that read it, even if they don't admit to it. I find it [i]fascinating[/i].

I'm throwing out a few Devil's Advocate questions

AKA trolling.

Thought it was the sun not the mail??

I'd wager you know quite a few people that read it

I don't know any that frequent its message boards, which is what you said.

AKA trolling.

Are you new to the Internet? You know you can look up these difficult and confusing new terms and find out what they mean, yes?

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth Grum.
I do disagree that some have an entitlement to feel more offended than others based upon distant history which most of us had nothing to do with.
I've been offended at being called a saes by the welsh when I worked there for a few years. The word is pretty innocuous, the intent certainly wasn't. Retrospectively I'm pleased that I didn't lower myself to petty racism in return. I used good old fashioned swearwords instead 😀
I'm fortunate in that none of my friends are racist in the slightest (probably because we're not all white!), unfortunately some of my work colleagues are which is even more difficult to deal with.

Exactly. Which it's why I find it interesting to discuss. I'm not looking for answers due to a lack of understanding, I'm throwing out a few Devil's Advocate questions to see what people do with them

[i]Maybe not, but the reality is that it is an insidious process which starts with small issues and eventually ends up in things like ethnic cleansing.[/i]

That's one of the funniest things I've read on here! We're talking about a 50-odd year old working class Geordie, not Adolph bloody Hitler!!

Shibboleth sort of has a point here though- not that small things like this [i]lead[/i] to things like ethnic cleansing, but that small things have an insidious effect that can persist in a sort of 'everybody knows' way if left unchallenged. If they become widespread enough people just accept them rather than thinking about them, in the same way that 'everybody knows' that lemmings jump of cliffs and drivers pay road tax. So a sort of communal subconcious belief that all Muslims are terrorists, all Jews are moneygrabbers, etc etc can persist. Then given the right circumstances like in the Balkans, Rwanda etc. these things can be exploited.

Clearly it's a long way from some BS in a pub to ethnic cleanising but still, I don't think it's a stretch to believe that casual, unthinking views like that can have some power.

Thing about racism, some people don't fully realise what they are doing.

I was approached by an acquaintance at work once asking whether I fancied joining the BNP. I replied 'You're joking right?'. He wasn't. Had that 'doh' look when I reminded him that my partner of the time (who he actually knew and liked) was from the Dominican Republic!

as I said, we're talking about the North East of England, and I doubt our 50-odd your old beer fan is planning a military coup any time soon!

Someone earlier hit the nail on the head - this is a remnant attitude of a previous generation and it's best ignored

1) well, quite, I doubt he is plotting a military coup (there was no military coup in Yugoslavia, btw). That's why he's of second tier ilk. Yer man isn't going to leave the pub to organise the lynch mob but he's probably likely to bring a pitchfork if he heard one was going on. Hitler's Willing Executioners, the Banality of Evil, blah di blah. The leaders of fascist and extremist movements are frequently not very ideological. That's what's surprising about Hitler in a way - that he actually believed in all that shit!

2) A previous generation? A 50 year old would have been 8 years old when the Rivers of Blood speech was made (its contentiousness shows that racism was an active political issue) and hitting 20 years old by 1980 - he can hardly have noticed that casual (or genuine) racism was a hot topic!

you can only discuss if you give your view genuinely held

That's demonstrably not true.

otherwise you are just trolling/anatgonising/provoking etc.

"Provoking" I'll grant you. I don't think that encouraging healthy debate, or making people stop and think, are bad things though.

Trolling, no. I'm not looking to make people angry, misrepresenting myself, laughing at others' expense, winding people up, any of that. If I thought for a second that that was actually happening, I'd be mortified.

If you're going to get angry at something you've actually misunderstood then I'm sorry. I do try very hard to be as clear as possible but the nature of communicating solely in a written medium means that it's easy to be taken the wrong way.

That said, there are better things to get angry about than the undisclosed opinions of someone you don't know on the Internet. For instance, the last thing that made me really angry was Brain Gym, which is a far more deserving target for sheer blinding rage.

Racism isn't born, folks, it's taught. I have a two-year-old son. You know what he hates? Naps! End of list. ~Dennis Leary

I have been horrified & deleted 'friends' from facebook for telling racist jokes, I've also stood up to people for myself and for other people (yes sometimes strangers) for being homophobic, sexist and disablist (yes it is a word that should exist if it doesn't)I feel confident enough to do that some people don't I'd like to think I can make someone think a little about their actions, perhaps thats butting in but there's been times I wished someone would stand up for me when I didn't have the strength to find my voice.

If everyone was a little braver and spent less time sniping at strangers *sic* and sticking up for their fellow human beings no matter what colour, sex, age they where then the world might be a better place to live in.....

Stupid ****in Micks...coming here with their sing-song sexy accents shagging our women.

If you're going to get angry at something you've actually misunderstood then I'm sorry

Do you often find yourself failing to read people whilst telling them they have misunderstood you?

Read the first word in that sentence you've quoted again, would you? Ta.

Life is not all black and white, its both, its so wrong to hate people because of their colour, but oh so right because theyre being a prat, and a lot of Racist /homophobic people are just prats, living in a bygone age, so do you decline treatment from a non white health care profesional, or perhaps a nurse you may feel is gay.

Probaly the answer is NO.

rascists just need a flippin good cuddle.. make them feel loved.. poor sacks of hatred that they are..

I've drunk with a few Moari's who claim to "****in hate Moari's" and referred to a number of others as "****in black bastards" this despite them appearing to be blacker than the ones they were talking about. I drank my beer and kept quiet.

[url=

racism rules[/url]

I doubt he is a out and out BNP-loving Neo-Nazi but he certainly needs telling his words have no place in todays society but it needs to be done in such a way that doesn't make you sound like a gay....

Look if you want to warble on acting like a male hen and talking out your rear whilst coming over as a moron then so be it

obviously I said if so clearly no offence will be taken and I have an easy defence move really convincing eh 🙄

Have you thought about joining threads where CharlieMungus , molgrips and Don simon are involved? You could spend days not really saying anything to each other nor actually expressing an opinion. I prefer chatting with people who mean what they say.

You what? I don't mean what I say? Wtf are you on about?

I genuinely cant tell if that was irony molgrips but I hope it was.
I dont mean it that broadly to be fair so sorry it was clumsy use of language. I mean like what you did on the childcare thread that kind of thing where you ...ah you describe it how you like.

Ah, ad hominem. Well [i]done.[/i]

Sensitive are we ?
I dont see an attack on you tbh I was just giving you some advice as to who to "debate" with.
Feel free to ignore it.
See easy this but ultimately pointless.

Sensitive, not at all. I just think it's a bit pathetic really. You've tried repeatedly to leg me up, failed, and so resorted to insults (including randomly insulting people wholly unrelated to this discussion).

But whatever. Fire away. I'm not going to respond further to direct attacks, so knock yourself out. If you'd like to go back to discussing the topic like adults, I'm all ears.

😆

Cougar, do you think you haven't come over as a moron in the latter part of this thread? Say what you think now.

I'm just throwing out a few Devil's Advocate questions to see what people do with them .......

To the OP:

I think you've got it all ass backwards, it's the bad-chat merchant that should be feeling sheepish, not you!

Just pipe up with a bit of Louis Theroux type light-hearted logical demolition of his world view (easily done). Just approach it as you would do any other bollox that gets spouted in a boozer, whether it be about football or anything else. No reason to get all heated about it.

The issue here is not the subject matter, but the fact that you feel bad that you didn't engage in the discussion.

Junkyard, you're a moron.

I thought you were on my side ...turncoat... but you may have a point...ooh are you trolling ?

As a white englishman living in/around very culturally diverse areas, I have been on the receiving end of more racist abuse than most have given out.
Ive noticed that in areas where I personally become a minority I tend to witness a more confident 'mob rule' attitude from other races (obviously).
I also have had discussions with asian friends/collegues on this and similar topics and this has been affirmed.

It is my belief that any & every culture has the tendancy to be racist/oppresive toward the minority in its immediate surroundings.
Racism truly isnt a 'white man' thing, and it will never be eradicated as culturally we are too diverse.
However, overtly liberal attitudes (which I find terribly lame) will only end up creating bigger problems in the long run as we shift the balance far too much.
We have to stop apologising, accept our differences and the very fact that we are different before we can move on.

No racism isn't truly a white man thing, but no race has dealt it out more severely with terrible consequences than the white man.

No racism isn't truly a white man thing, but no race has dealt it out more severely with terrible consequences than the white man.

Racist! 😛

Racist!

Idiot! 😛

Cougar, do you think you haven't come over as a moron in the latter part of this thread? Say what you think now.

Do you think I have? Genuine question, there's little point in me taking part in these chats in future if that's what everyone thinks.

You don't come over as a moron to me - but it does look like you miss the point about racism and the use of racist language completely with no desire to understand the issues at all.

If you argue devils advocate when someone makes a good point you should accept that

''No racism isn't truly a white man thing, but no race has dealt it out more severely with terrible consequences than the white man''

Says who? Thats a sweeping generalisation at best.
Are you speaking on behalf of international rascists throughout history?
Or the fact that most of the history you are aware of is based on white man? (as you are presumably white, and educated as such).
Many other countries have far far worse racsism problems (& history) than the UK - and many of those countries are not 'white'.

You will always meet people who 99% you get on with (perhaps share their views, or don't mind some). Then there's the 1% of them you don't get on with.

Local bloke in the snack van (Blackburn area) is like that - he's one of the nicest people I think I have ever met.... but don't get him started on "[i]those bloody Asians[/i]". Not to stereotype or anything, but his usual customers who complain about "[i]those bloody Asians[/i]" are overweight middle aged skinhead truck drivers/builders/labourers (you get the picture...)

I just don't get involved in the discussion....

Says who? Thats a sweeping generalisation at best.

Ah right, says me for today. So, historically, who has dealt out more shite to other races than white people (by which I mean "white Europeans, including Americans..."? I hope you get the picture. If you need me to be more explicit, we can do that.

It's not that I miss the point at all. I just think it's interesting to look at it from different angles. The problem with provocative subjects like this is that people get so passionate about them that it's hard to be objective.

I try and take a step back from it and all I get is "are you stupid?" No, I'm not, and sitting there belming at me doesn't get us anywhere. I've tried to be up front about posing hypothetical questions, it's not a deus ex machina "ah, well, I was playing devil's advocate" weaselly get-out. Perhaps I need to be clearer though.

I'm not sure what you mean about "accepting" points though; I wasn't aware that I wasn't. I'll have a look at that.

Just a "good point well presented"

The problem with debating in text is that nuance is lost. So on this topic you appear to me to not understand and not want to understand.

You are right tho in that people get into entrenched positions

sitting there belming at me

'Belming' is a totally new word for me. Wassit mean?

'Belming' is a totally new word for me. Wassit mean?

It probably means you're quite a bit younger, or older, than I am.

I've tried to be up front about posing hypothetical questions

Very difficult online and when the people don't know you. I get in trouble for it all the time! 🙂

So, historically, who has dealt out more shite to other races than white people (by which I mean "white Europeans, including Americans..."?

It's more complicated than that. Lots of slave trading, for sure, but that was a very long time ago, and we definitely weren't the only ones. It's just that mostly we were the only ones taking people of a visibly different race and shipping them half away around the world. So many terrible stories from ALL OVER the world, that we don't know about. Perhaps they happened outside of recorded history, perhaps we just don't know the history. Did you know for example that the Japanese people (as a race) displaced the original inhabitants, the Ainu, who are now treated like dirt apparently - pretty similar story to the USA, Australia etc etc etc etc. It happened all over the world and is still happening.

It's also worth noting that in many cases the 'white' man brought stability and development along with rule. I worked with a chap from Sudan once, and he said that when he went back home (to a small village) old people kept asking him when the British were coming back, because things were much better then.

FFS if TJ was giving me advice on how to present your arguent well on the Internet I would be worried 😉
You are clearly not a moron and you are clearly quite bright and thinka bout life and issues in general. However these debates will always get a little heated and raise some heckles/emotions. I just dont think there is any need for the devils advocate type questioning as it can be seen as provocative/trolling etc. As I demonstrated [ badly] it is easy to get a reaction from someone.
I think it can also lead to circular argument where you can genuinely see someones point of view but just keep asking questions about it whilst not really giving your own view.
I did not mean any offence in general but I was a bit off with you for which I apologise.
I dont think you need to leave or anything nor necessarily listen to my advice - could be wrong or you may not be interested in what I think. Be yourself some folk will like you some wont just as in life.
EDIT: as above that was why I mentioned about those posters as they do the same...i would be lying if i said it did not irritate me and lying if I said I did not bite occassionally. I would also be lying if I said that they were not amongst the sharpest folk on here.

It's not that I miss the point at all. I just think it's interesting to look at it from different angles. The problem with provocative subjects like this is that people get so passionate about them that it's hard to be objective.

I try and take a step back from it and all I get is "are you stupid?" No, I'm not, and sitting there belming at me doesn't get us anywhere. I've tried to be up front about posing hypothetical questions, it's not a deus ex machina "ah, well, I was playing devil's advocate" weaselly get-out. Perhaps I need to be clearer though.

You say you want to look at it from different angles - but then when I talk about the historical context of all these issues you say 'I'm not interested in a history lesson'.

Usually a discussion is a two way thing - completely ignoring the valid points people make and just asking more questions doesn't make for a good debate, and I don't know why you're surprised that it winds people up.

So, historically, who has dealt out more shite to other races than white people (by which I mean "white Europeans, including Americans..."? I hope you get the picture. If you need me to be more explicit, we can do that.

I'd love for you to be more explicit if you would be so kind.. these threads often contain some enlightening info..

so step up and show us some evidence to back up your audacious and fishy-sounding claim please sonny jim..

+1 Junkyard and Grum

If you're debating from a position that's not your own then you still have to accept/refute points made by others rather than just asking another question.

Otherwise it is just trolling imo.

You say you want to look at it from different angles - but then when I talk about the historical context of all these issues you say 'I'm not interested in a history lesson'.

CBA to read back but I think I said it wasn't relevant to what I was getting at, rather than that I wasn't interested. But yes, that's a fair point I think. Duly noted.

I did not mean any offence in general but I was a bit off with you for which I apologise.

No offence taken. *manly hug*

So, historically, who has dealt out more shite to other races than white people (by which I mean "white Europeans, including Americans..."?

It's more complicated than that. Lots of slave trading, for sure, but that was a very long time ago, and we definitely weren't the only ones. It's just that mostly we were the only ones taking people of a visibly different race and shipping them half away around the world. So many terrible stories from ALL OVER the world, that we don't know about. Perhaps they happened outside of recorded history, perhaps we just don't know the history. Did you know for example that the Japanese people (as a race) displaced the original inhabitants, the Ainu, who are now treated like dirt apparently - pretty similar story to the USA, Australia etc etc etc etc. It happened all over the world and is still happening.

Amen.

It's foolish to jump on the ''white man = racist'' band wagon.
Throughout history there have been countless racist atrocities inflicted by all colours and creeds. By spouting 'USA+Britain did all the slavery init' you are doing nothing other than proving your own ignorance/brain washed blinkery.
Religion probably has just as much to answer for, but thats for another day.

😆