[Closed] Drinking With Racists

I was told about a guy who doesn't like 'immigrants' coming over here, taking our jobs, etc.

He works in Afghanistan.

challenge him i'd say.... done it many times in the past and will continue to do so.

i'm the victim of unintended casual racism most days at work, luckily i'm in a position in which i can stand up to people without fear of anything coming back at me

5th, the only people we really hate are Mackems, but interestingly, stick Geordies and Mackems together in, say, London and there's an instant North-Eastern bonding against the common enemy. We're allowed to hate each other, but it's a family thing - outsiders absolutely aren't allowed to get involved

Happens eveywhere, we used to have inter-village fights, and we all worked together. Occasionally we'd get together for a night out in the nearest big town and it would become the villagers against the townies.

For the OP, I doubt reasoning and rational debate is going to change his views, put up or walk away. I used to have a drinking buddy who was a racist, not a close friend, just one of the more regular guys in the pub. On the whole he was fine but sometimes he'd go into a racist rant, he'd discuss it but was never going to change his point of view. Interestingly enough he wouldn't express his views when there foreigners in the pub either.

Like it. But surely this ends up as a fist pie.

Nah it's not that sort of pub, he wasn't that pissed and, despite the shaky racial viewpoint, he is otherwise a nice enough guy.

(Also he's 53. I'm 36 and a fair bit bigger than him)

portlyone - Member

on the plus side the economy must be looking up if people are turning down paying jobs...

I usually try to question such daily-mail fuelled racist comments as the OPs case by injecting a similarly controversial contrasting view along the lines of "its not the hard working immigrants you wanna be worried about- we've got far too many thoroughbred english dole scroungers grabbing money off the ordinary working man" - gets 'em thinking at least.... 😀

gets 'em thinking at least...

I really am surprised some people don't get punched more

I'd have said "You ain't a man until you've had a bit of tan"

It's true.

I once went out for a drink with my mate and he brought this idiot along with him who i'd not met before. We got a taxi into town, and he refused to put any money in towards it because the driver was Asian!
The night went downhill from there, and I never saw the fool again.

Two weeks later I'd pulled my missus who is of Afro-Caribbean dissent.

It's an interesting, yet highly rewarding life - Wedding in October 😀

We were once sat in a nice hotel restaurant down the Cotswolds and there was another mixed race couple sat a table or so down. The waiter came over and asked if they would like any condiments, to which the anglosax guy said (not wanting to draw attention to the colour of his missus skin) do you have any Dark Sauce? Me and the missus could hardly contain our laughter!! Must have been early days.

We now refer to any other mixed race couple we see as - Dark Sauce and Mayonnaise! 😀 A club I wholeheartedly recommend.

I usually try to question such daily-mail fuelled racist comments as the OPs case by injecting a similarly controversial contrasting view...

I'm not sure that spreading out the hate does anything to dilute it 🙂

I really am surprised some people don't get punched more

Too quick on me feet, in't I Binners?

Sting like a butterfly, run like a bastard...

I'm not sure that spreading out the hate does anything to dilute it

the aim would be to show a deliberately small minded view against some other values to show up the small mindedness of the original comment....

But yeah, I agree with some there's no changin them sadly

Sting like a butterfly, run like a bastard...

LMAO. I'll be stealing that one. 😀

run like a bastard

You will this weekend, when I come chasing after you with some sheep-shears in my hand.......

We now refer to any other mixed race couple we see as - Dark Sauce and Mayonnaise! A club I wholeheartedly recommend.

You are all very bad. 😆

Sting like a butterfly, run like a bastard...

Nice one Fred. A philosophy i whole-heartedly embrace.

Reminds me of the Seb Coe quote. When asked why he took up running, he said "when you're called Sebastian and you grow up in Nottingham, you learn to run fast"

I managed a business a few years back where the Chairman of the group actually told me not to employ any Asian staff as it would upset the workforce. At the time I was really shocked and seriously considered jacking the job in over it. I spoke to my older brother about it, on the basis that he had a good deal of experience in the field of race relations, and was a bit taken aback to get lambasted about my soft liberal attitudes. Basically telling me to get a grip and that the only way to sort it out was from within, so take the opportunity and do something about it.
So that’s what I did, and went off and simply recruited whoever I felt best for the job. Shockingly the first person I employed was an Asian lady.
Sure enough, some gorilla from the shop floor came to me saying that he and the lads weren’t prepared to work with her. I responded by telling him that I was very sorry to hear that, but in the circumstances I had not choice but to accept their collective resignations. Strangely I never heard another word on the subject from either the shop floor or for that matter further up the ladder.

I’ve also had a similar experience with a riding buddy who was prone to racism. Simple solution being that I choose not to ride with him, and when asked why I will tell him.

I don’t think there is any need to lead the charge of the Light Brigade, but I do think you need to get a grip of the reality, i.e. do you want to be complicit in racism. The fact is currently you are.

Yeah, but he's also a Tory scumbayg needs to be able to run fast I'd fling my poo at him an' all.

You like that one innit Graham? 😀

whereas I might come across as over-sensitive twitchy liberal PC police, being offended on behalf of other people.

Oh come on, if you believe that racism is utterly wrong then stand up for that belief and say something.

Edit: what berm bandit said

GrahamS - Member

Sting like a butterfly, run like a bastard...

LMAO. I'll be stealing that one

I've noticed that mixed race couples seem to enjoy making mildly racist (or ambiguously racist) comments at all opportunities.

5thElefant I expect you'd class 'ebony & ivory' by Stevie Wonder & Macca as being mildly racist (or ambiguously racist) in the same way then? 🙄

You're coming at it from a slightly different position though Elf - being.. err.. "lightly-tanned" yourself. You'd be standing up for "yourself" - whereas I might come across as over-sensitive twitchy liberal PC police, being offended on behalf of other people.

I don't see it like that really. Racism is racism, whoever it's directed against. TBH my own colour don't come into it; I've challenged other 'brown' people for racist comments and views. I'll challenge anyone who comes out with racist shit. I don't discriminate..

5thElefant I expect you'd class 'ebony & ivory' by Stevie Wonder & Macca as being mildly racist (or ambiguously racist) in the same way then?

Fred is an equal opportunity ranter 😉

I despise everyone, equally. 😀

You quoted Dark Sauce and Mayonnaise, I quoted Eboney & Ivory as a parallel surly even you can comprehend that?

And I'm so offended at being called a prat and right on, do you live in the past 😆

You quoted Dark Sauce and Mayonnaise, I quoted Eboney & Ivory as a parallel surly even you can comprehend that?

And I'm so offended at being called a prat and right on, do you live in the past

As you're deliberately trying to twist an observation I've made about my friends (prompted by a vaguely related story) into some kind of racist attack I won't bother getting drawn into an argument.

I'll leave it at prat, but feel free to fill in a different word.

[i]Sometimes Love Just Ain't Enough[/i]

As you're deliberately trying to twist an observation I've made about my friends (prompted by a vaguely related story) into some kind of racist attack

I was doing the exact opposite actually, I was indicating how you were saying the Dark Sauce and Mayonnaise is a 'mildly racist' when in fact it's not and you were being as you would say 'right on' and overly PC. There that's it spelt out so plainly even you should be able to understand it.

Nice to see some numpties tarring all Geordies with the same brush.

OP - you are talking about someone from an older generation (where racism was more tolerated - TV in the 70s etc) in a fairly rural place (where there are generally lots of white locals who have lived there for a long time). I doubt you'll change his mind on anything, never mind people with funny accents. This is not a Geordie issue. I bet he went to school with his peer group and they were all white and local - you can find these people everywhere.

You have to live there - fairly small-ish community. Either drink elsewhere or deal with it next time it comes up.

Don't know if you remember that Panorama documentary about traffic wardens in Sunderland? The one where they used secret cameras to film the wardens targetting folk due to their skin colour? They also had lengthy conversations of a very racist nature and lots of them lost their jobs thereafter.

I watched it and thought it was tame compared to my old workplace - when I first moved to Sunderland (10 years ago now) I got a part time student summer job working at the beach, hiring deck chairs and the like.

The daily racism was a shock to me - skin colour not really a factor; foreigners all got it in the neck from my workmates. Indeed one of my colleagues was african and was told on a daily basis that he was a "black bastard" and was "taking the bread out of our mouths". That lad was perfectly capable of standing up for himself so I didn't feel the need to get involved, other than to have a quiet word with the boss about the staff room banter. Didn't change anything...

Do I think the NE is less accepting of incomers? Yes, and I think that certainly in the case of Sunderland, it's because it's essentially a collection of villages, so retains a bit of a small town mentality. The first black / yellow / Polish faces were only seen here a decade or so ago (with the odd, rare exception) and the place is still adjusting to getting all cosmopolitan...!

OP - I reckon there's nothing wrong with expressing your views - I wouldn't go drinking with racists, but then I have a choice and feel your pain! You might not change the way they feel about it, but you will certainly feel better for being true to the way you feel...

Playing devil's advocate slightly, whilst what this fella has said is unacceptable, it's probably 99% drink-fueled bluster.

Expressing these type of views isn't the worst thing in the world, it's not like he's abusing kids! He's just gobbing off.

If he was violent or abusive to anyone of foreign descent, then sure, it would be appropriate to do or say something about his behaviour, but I'd put money on him not actually having the courage of his so-called convictions. Like most people that spout that sort of nonsense, he would probably be perfectly polite and accommodating if he was actually in the presence of "darkies".

I speak from experience: I have a close relative of a similar age, from a similar background, who expresses similar views.

If you base your experience of the North East on Sunderland, then you have a smaller town mentality than anyone around you.

isn't the worst thing in the world

Maybe not, but the reality is that it is an insidious process which starts with small issues and eventually ends up in things like ethnic cleansing. Its much easier to challenge it when its not "the worst thing in the world", and before its escalated into what potentially is the worst thing in the world. Similar really to the dog name thread. thats also not the worst thing in the world, but denial leads to the errors of history getting repeated through ignorance IMHO

Maybe not, but the reality is that it is an insidious process which starts with small issues and eventually ends up in things like ethnic cleansing

I'm sorry, but that's utter cobblers

Maybe not, but the reality is that it is an insidious process which starts with small issues and eventually ends up in things like ethnic cleansing.

That's one of the funniest things I've read on here! We're talking about a 50-odd year old working class Geordie, not Adolph bloody Hitler!!

Come riding with us in Hexham on a Wednesday night. There are often (but not always) pub stops. Last night was at the Sun Inn in Catton. I hope to go back more this summer 😀

So binners and shibboleth, tell me at what point you would think it appropriate to challenge racist behaviour, and why you would chose that moment. I'm really interested to hear your views.

As I illustrated in my past post, if his views manifested themselves in the form of violence, abuse or discrimination against actual "darkies", then I'd be delighted to challenge him.

Gobbing off in a pub, as I said, is probably no more than bluster and challenging it has the potential to cause more agro.

I think you're confusing genuinely malicious and violent racism ie the BNP, with people who are just... well... a bit ignorant and maybe a bit thick. Its the INTENT that's important. The subtext. Sometimes its social conditioning and a reflection of your surroundings

My ex was from Whitehaven. At the last census it was the 'whitest' place in Britain. 99%+ white christian. I remember being genuinelly shocked hearing the 'N' word in general conversation. But mainly it wasn't because they were rabid nazi's, it was just that its a very insular community, and they had never encountered any ethnic minorities like most of us had. There was no incitement or mallice intended. And if I'd have got all lefty and started accusing everyone of being Nazi's, I doubt I'd have either changed anyone's views, or made any friends

Your argument is the "if you have a spilff you'll end up on Herion" one. Its just utter and complete nonsense I'm afraid!

My mother is racist, and doesn’t see that there’s a problem with that as she’s ‘entitled to her opinions’. She tried to make me promise when I was 13 that I’d never marry a black man.

She’ll go on about how black and asian men target white girls and get them hooked on drugs and forced into prostitution, and how England didn’t have any drug problems until we started letting in immigrants. How all Muslims have forced marriages. She categorises Hindus and Sikhs as Muslims – when I pointed out that my nan’s neighbours were Hindu and not Muslim, as my mother was saying, she said, “What’s the difference?”. I tried explaining the different pantheons and beliefs, but she started glazing over. They come over here to claim benefits whilst at the same time stealing our jobs, all drive on the same licence because they look the same, etc.

I’ve had to explain to her the reason why my brother’s friend looked a bit flabbergasted is because he isn’t normally referred to as being ‘coloured’ or ‘half-caste’. She makes jokes about wearing a white sheet and joining the Ku-Klux-Clan.

Bizarre thing is, she doesn’t really encounter non-white people – but when she does, she actually gets along with them really well. My best friend when I was growing up had Jamaican parents, and my mom loved them to bits. I called them Uncle Cleve and Auntie Heather. When I stayed over on a weekend, they’d take me to their very traditional Catholic church (although my mom for ages assumed it was a gospel church, she was quite surprised when I explained the music was mostly hymns in Latin…). She got on well with my nan’s neighbours. Tragically, she sees them as being the exception rather than the rule - I guess that’s what happens when you’re not terribly bright and your world view is formed almost entirely from reading the Daily Mail. I’ve tried challenging her, I’ve tried educating her, but some people are very comfortable with their prejudices.

it is an insidious process which starts with small issues and eventually ends up in things like ethnic cleansing.

Godwin!

It's not though, is it. It's the vestiges of the previous generation's attitudes, and it's dying out as they are. The uncomfortable truth is that they're probably no more or less racist than anyone else (from a demographic perspective) but to them it's acceptable to make such comments, whereas the next generation know to keep it to themselves.

I think Shibboleth is right about pub bluster too. He probably only said it because he thought it'd get a laugh.

Not that any of this makes it right, of course. Just that I don't think we'll be seeing a Geordie version of the Third Reich in the immediate future.

You could just share some 'PC gone mad' banter with them about 'rewriting history'. 😉

Are you familar with the growth of facism in the 20th century? In the main it came about in drinking establishments with a rise to aggressive and intimidatory behaviour from what might be called passive or non violent "Gobbing off in a pub", which was at the time treated as probably "no more than bluster".

Regretably, the view taken at the time with some justification was to leave it be as "challenging it has the potential to cause more agro".

They weren't wrong, by the time the main, working class, protagnist was the same age as your 50-odd year old working class Geordie, he'd started World War 2 and upwards of 40 million people lost their lives as a result.

Since then in this world, we've continued to experience a series of racially aggreivated wars and ethnic cleansing activities continuing right to this day.

So run it past me again, why precisely should any of us tolerate this sort of gobbing off and allow it to go unchallenged??

Binners, Shibboleth; as much as you may dispute

Maybe not, but the reality is that it is an insidious process which starts with small issues and eventually ends up in things like ethnic cleansing