[Closed] Drinking With Racists

My mother is racist, and doesn’t see that there’s a problem with that as she’s ‘entitled to her opinions’. She tried to make me promise when I was 13 that I’d never marry a black man.

Dad: "At least he's not a Protestant."

An interesting twist on an old theme.

Not that any of this makes it right, of course. Just that I don't think we'll be seeing a Geordie version of the Third Reich in the immediate future

"If Adolf Hitler flew in today
They'd send [s]a limousine[/s] the Metro anyway"

Doesn't really have the same ring, does it

In the main it came about in drinking establishments with a rise to aggressive and intimidatory behaviour from what might be called passive or non violent "Gobbing off in a pub"

Once again I doff my cap to you BB. You're raising the bar on outrageously brainless comments.

I did my dissertation on photomontage and the emergence of political art in 1930's Germany, so I know a fair bit on the subject, yes. Certainly enough to know that that statement is even more absurd than your first. Quite an achievement

Berm Bandit - Member

Are you familar with the growth of facism in the 20th century? In the main it came about in drinking establishments with a rise to aggressive and intimidatory behaviour from what might be called passive or non violent "Gobbing off in a pub", which was at the time treated as probably "no more than bluster".

Can you point me in the direction of any resources that support this???

My ex was from Whitehaven. At the last census it was the 'whitest' place in Britain. 99%+ white christian. I remember being genuinelly shocked hearing the 'N' word in general conversation. But mainly it wasn't because they were rabid nazi's, it was just that its a very insular community, and they had never encountered any ethnic minorities like most of us had. There was no incitement or mallice intended. And if I'd have got all lefty and started accusing everyone of being Nazi's, I doubt I'd have either changed anyone's views, or made any friends

I grew up in a 99.9% white community, and I used to think like you do that it was just ignorance not malice - until years later, I was back in a local pub at christmas time having a pint with some of my ex-classmates (mostly farmers). Pretty quickly (somehow) they got round to talking about the idea that Hitler wasn't really such a bad guy and he did a good job for his country dealing with immigrants etc

I told them they were racist idiots then left, and I haven't spoken to them since. I was never particularly mates with anyway though to be fair.

To me its a case of pick and choose your battles. Unless you want to risk loosing this group as drinking buddies ( I hesitate to say friends) then go carefully

Just " why not?" to the "I couldn't work for a darkie" - hear the answer tehn move it on. Or think of some positive things. Does he like a curry? Local business that is well thought of?

Binners you never fail to amaze me....

To quote a wiser man than me:

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” Sir Winston Churchill

..and that is the point, not the imminent rise of the Fourth Reich in Gateshead. The point being that it is best and easiest challenged when weakest. Sorry if they didn't teach you sufficient logic at Art school.

Can you point me in the direction of any resources that support this???

If I chose my drinking buddies based on my opinions and beliefs, I'd drink alone a lot more often! 😉

The amount of times I've sat in on tea breaks on sites and heard white Bristolians be casually racist, anti-immigration, etc etc...It's not just Geordies.

I have sometimes mentioned that I'm an immigrant and that not so long ago their attitudes would have been directed towards me. "Oh you're alright, you're Irish" or something along those lines is often the response I get. Without a hint of irony 🙄

I think, like some others on the thread, that when this kind of thing happens you have a moral obligation to speak out in some way. Walking away (literally, in your case) doesn't change anything. That said, I remember an incident a couple of years ago (at the football) when I did nothing due to cowardice. Thinking about that, and the fact that I could have done something makes me feel ashamed now, but I understand how difficult it can feel to do something there and then, especially on your own or when there are people around that you otherwise like. Similar to others have said, when I've said stuff to colleagues/ associates to the effect of 'I think that's unacceptable, and I'm not interested in hearing it' it's been more or less effective (you don't necessarily need to do it in a way that embarrasses someone in front of the group though).

RE the mythical hotbed of racism that is the North East, I'm sorry to disappoint some posters above, but whilst undoubtedly there is implicit and explicit racism in some circles, workplaces, cultures... it is no better or worse than anywhere else I've experienced. Unfortunately, I think some form of prejudice is found in everyone, but fortunately more and more people are reflexive enough to realise and improve their own attitudes and behaviour. To say 'they're just some backwards idiots in some village/the NE, they'll always be like that, so forget about it...' does a discredit to the majority (nowadays) who detest the kind of sentiments in the OP, and shows yourself in a poor light.

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” Sir Winston Churchill

We best get the troops on the streets pront, to avoid the impending holocaust in Gateshead then eh? Will the Scots be ready for the floods of refugees staggering across the border any day now?

Sorry if they didn't teach you sufficient logic at Art school

We tended to think laterally or even abstractly. You should try it. If logic leads to some of the conclusions you're reaching, you can keep it thanks

TooTall - Member
If you base your experience of the North East on Sunderland, then you have a smaller town mentality than anyone around you.

I'll have you know I've sinced moved to the far reaches of Houghton-Le-Spring, walk the dog near Chester-Le-Street and once evn met a bloke from Durham!!

Seriously though, I meant absolutely no offence to any North East folk and have lived in cities, towns and villages all over the UK - I base my experience of the North East against the background of my whole life, not the last ten years.

We best get the troops on the streets pront, to avoid the impending holocaust in Gateshead then eh? Will the Scots be ready for the floods of refugees staggering across the border any day now?

Yes binners, we see your point. For those who experience racism, your trivialisation of it isn't anywhere near as funny as you think it is.

hotbed of racism that is the North East

It's mostly not serious (I think) and will fall apart if questioned.

I'm not trying to trivialise racism. I'm tryin to draw a distinction between violent and malicious racism, which no right-minded person could possibly condone, and incidence of some people just not being too bright/a bit ignorant

And just to point out that a Geordie gobbing off in the pub doesn't necessarily lead to Strebinica.

End of the day, I live in the people republic of Chorlton. I could sit in the pub til i died of old age and I'd have more chance of hearing the mating call of a unicorn than a racist remark

One of the reasons I love living there 😀

Other people's experiences may differ but I think coming across all Guardian-like and "I have never been quate so offended in all my life" is the worst option.

IMO, either you can half laugh/half seriously say something like "come on, Barry, you know that's not true" enough to signal that it's not OK, or you can just ignore it - because you're not going to change their mind anyway.

a slightly less aggressive way would be to say "Really? why not?" get them to explain why it's a bad thing, they may have suddenly come over all shy

---

We're talking about a 50-odd year old working class Geordie, not Adolf bloody Hitler!

It is a bit of a stretch from the OP to that comment you were replying to, I agree, but otoh if you look at who the second tier of (accused) war criminals in the Yugoslavian wars were, they were often small-town, poorly educated nobodies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goran_Had%C5%BEi%C4%87

 

Yes binners, we see your point. For those who experience racism, your trivialisation of it isn't anywhere near as funny as you think it is.

binners please tell me you're not attempting humour.... I'd accept self medication, or something like my mum smoked when she was pregnant as a reasonable, but not humour FFS !....

In my experience central Newcastle is actually more tolerant than it was - I work in the city centre and we have a few Indians in our workforce. It is a professional environment so nothing is ever said or even thought.

However I think South East Northumberland is considerably worse. Ashington, Blyth area is where it is worse. phrases such as **** Shop, darkies etc still exist and are used by a very large proportion. I live near Drac and all my family are racist in one way or another - my brother and I seem to be the start of it being more liberal (as in we have worked away in other cities) whereas my family have lived and worked here all their lives. My in-laws are terrible they wont even eat that "foreign muck" or "darkie food", My gran claims all Indians smell of curry for example. They aren't bad people its just they are ignorant and non-tolerant to these other cultures. In the town I live in we have no black people at all and only 1 family of Sub-continental Indians that yep run a shop that opened on xmas day so it confirms there opinions.

I wouldn't just say its the North East of England though I imagine it happens in other working class areas of this country and others - most areas away from capital and large cities of places like Italy, Spain, France, Holland etc will all have it in the far flung corners.

I can't stand racism.

You should have gone and found a white table cloth and cut a couple of eye holes in it and dropped it over his head

seriously though, it is a difficult situation and I guess you would have to be there to know if it was meant and how to react but I would have said something to make them think/shut up.

To OP I think you are talking to someone (53 yrs old) who was brought up using different terms from yours. Yes, they don't like foreigners but then perhaps they don't like everyone they don't trust at all.

Funny thing is that one of my friend (a Londoner) is older than 53 and the amount of "funny" labellings that come from him is astonishing especially when he grew up in London in a very mixed community. Now he lives in the NE Geordieland. Sometimes when he got excited about an issue he would use certain terms that are considered as racist nowadays but to him it was normal language usage, so on many occasions I had to stop him in his track by reminding him we were in year 2011 and that he might get himself into trouble by using certain terms in the public.

In private I tend to let him be since that's the way he is and the way he expresses himself and I would rather be with a person that is honest about his views than someone who try to pretend. But I would remind him in public just to help him avoid embarrassing himself.

I doubt he (your friend) would use the term in a large public arena put it this way.

Tragically, she sees them as being the exception rather than the rule

that is exactly the argument an acquaintance of mine used to use, to a mutual friend.

"yeah, but you're not like the rest of them"

Incidentally could I just add for the sake of the hard of thinking that IMHO suggesting that the North East is racist is about the same as saying all [pick your own minority] are lazy/steal/smell etc etc . Any comments I've made are general and not intended to be specific to that region.

binners please tell me you're not attempting humour.... I'd accept self medication, or something like my mum smoked when she was pregnant as a reasonable, but not humour FFS !....

I have absolutely no idea what that statement means. It makes even less sense than your previous ones

Hang on... is you sayin' I is racist?

I am not sure I would tar someone who makes a racist comment through ignorance as a racist, they are just ignorant. Therefore, if faced with such a situation I would hope I would reply "I would rather work for an asian who grafts than a white bloke who sits on his arse doing sweet FA expecting me to do all the work".

Such ignorance often comes from fear of the unknown, which is a pretty common human trait, and therefore I think one should educate rather judge.

As far as pub banter leading to Armageddon, surely it is the existence of political leaders who take advantage of such ignorance that are the prime cause, obviously if there was no such ignorance they would have nothing to work on but is that realistic in the short term?

It is a bit of a stretch from the OP to that comment you were replying to, I agree, but otoh if you look at who the second tier of (accused) war criminals in the Yugoslavian wars were, they were often small-town, poorly educated nobodies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goran_Had%C5%BEi%C4%87

But as I said, we're talking about the North East of England, and I doubt our 50-odd your old beer fan is planning a military coup any time soon!

Someone earlier hit the nail on the head - this is a remnant attitude of a previous generation and it's best ignored.

Hang on... is you sayin' I is racist?

I'm sure you're not, coming from the cultural hotbed that is South Manchester binners, but you certainly don't seem too bothered by it.

There's a difference between "not bothered by racism" and "having a sense of perspective," is there not? Just because people aren't suggesting death by stoning in response to a Geordie bloke in a pub going "them brown people, they're not like us are they, eh?" doesn't mean that we're all secretly sitting here thinking he's a voice of the people, telling it like it is.

I love STW for its discussions, but I've never known anywhere like it for people twisting others' words.

There's a difference between "not bothered by racism" and "having a sense of perspective," is there not?

Of course.

"them brown people, they're not like us are they, eh?"

I've never known anywhere like it for people twisting others' words.

Oh teh ironing. 🙂

Its not a case of that DD. I just think that you need to choose your battles. My opinion of a lot of people of a left-leanignn persussion (I include myself here) tend to have a knee-jerk reaction to these things

Some old bloke gobbing off in a pub is a lot different from the violent intent of the BNP (or the rampant anti-semitism of some muslims). We should treat it as such. And as I've said, saying one leads inevitably to the other is the same as the one that says having a spliff leads to heroin addiction. Its just patent nonsense.

The casual racist should be ignored or, better still, laughed at for their obvious ignorance. For what its worth, I certainly wouldn't be sat drinking every week with people voicing opinions like that

She got on well with my nan’s neighbours. Tragically, she sees them as being the exception rather than the rule - I guess that’s what happens when you’re not terribly bright

Binners you surprised me I thought your first post was quality sarcasm as usual. however I think if we let views to go unchallenged inpubs and from our "mates" we are accpeting and tolerating those views. I am not saying that the OP's actions will stop or cure racism but not that long ago here we could openly discriminate against non white folk. It is a good thing we cannot and part of this came from challenging the racists. Letting it go wont really help either.
I lived in devon when the race riots in the north west were on and people, at work, asked me if I knew any... I looked at the tv intently to see if I did and said no I dont think any of those are my mates...they actually meant if I knew some non white folk. I worked for Mencap and the manager was gay [ ire it was liberal tolernaceville]. they did however have np concept of a wrold not made up of 99% white people. They struggled to beleieve me that it wa simpossible to not know some of them.
It is not hard to differentiate ignorance from racism in general life. They require different response but should both be challenged.
Being treated unfavourably due to skin colour is wrong and we should not let it go IMHO

The casual racist should be ignored or, better still, laughed at for their obvious ignorance

I don't agree with that. If you make it unacceptable and change the mind of the 'casual' racist then the hardcore are more isolated and look even more out of touch. As it stands the hardcore are surrounded by a protective barrier of acceptable/accepted casual racism.

Some old bloke

He's not that old is he? 52 or 53? I would consider him to be of a generation that "should know better". He would have been born in what...59/60?

Look, I see exactly where you're coming from binners. And, tbh, you live in the North so I'd expect some of it. Nobody's saying that it's going to lead to an ethnic cleansing of the NE, but challenging his perspective is good. I managed to change some of the opinions of my 75 year old Mum - not al of them 🙄 but enough to make her think before she blames Ireland's ills on the immigrants living down the road.

How do you think this fella (GrahamS's mate I mean) is bringing up his kids then?

A good friend of mine pointed out some years ago that a lot of the type of people the OP is on about will sit in a pub drinking and talking racist crap, then go out and cheer the black players in their football team.......

Incidentally, as a thought exercise,

We live in an age where casual racism against people of a different skin colour generates a massive reaction, but casual racism against those who look like us is still tolerated. Seems the less "different" the demographic, the slower we are to play the 'racism' card.

Case in point was someone referring to someone from Scotland as a "jock" yesterday; the STW Massive duly took it in the manner it was intended, which was as an affectionate quip. If a similar remark had been make about someone of a different skin colour, we'd all have been reaching for the pitchforks instead.

So. If we crossed out "darkie" and put "froggie" in the OP, would we all still have the same opinion? How about "jock"?

only because we stopped them throwing bannnas and booing which happened until the 80's [ even to England players *and still occurs today [ les soften her but quite frequent abroad.
It did not stop because we ignored it that is the point and godd example PP

Today the fans still chant I would rather be a **** than a Nation we are playing so it is hardly all gone

I remember being in Anfield for a game against Blackburn. The referee (or linesman) was Uriah Rennie and Blackburn had a black striker playing up front...Nathan somebody...was it Blake? Anyway, Liverpool won the game 2-1...with the winner coming from Paul Ince.

The racist abuse I heard from fans behind me towards the linesman, referee and towards the black Blackburn player was absolutely shocking...as was the delight when Paul Ince scored.

I'm still haunted by my not saying anything for fear of having the shit kicked out of me 😐

I have absolutely no idea what that statement means.

I think this says more about you than it does about the actual statement. Could I suggest the following might be a useful addition to your book shelf?

[img] [/img]

Oh teh ironing.

Ah, I was paraphrasing, rather than deliberately misunderstanding someone so I could get outraged about it.

Raspberries.

It has to be said I've challenged racism once or twice. Working in construction, you see a lot of it, and on more than one occasion I've had someone tell me a racist 'joke', and I've either said "sorry, that's not funny, I'm not into that" or stopped them haplfway through when I realised where it was going. That does piss them off a bit, I can tell you.........

Oddly the bloke in question is quite well-travelled - he's a very keen diver and been on diving holidays around Turkey, Egypt, Tunisia and other parts of the African coast.

Case in point was someone referring to someone from Scotland as a "jock" yesterday; the STW Massive duly took it in the manner it was intended, which was as an affectionate quip.

Actually it was directed at me funnily enough, and yeah I'm quite happy with that term.

I'm not outraged, more exasperated, tbh 😐

Bookshelf? Look BB. We've established i went to art college. So obviously i can't actually read. Can you get it as an audio book? Are there illustrations? If there's pictures, I could probably get my head round it. Hey... If there's not, I could do some. I'm great with the crayons and It'd make me feel special.

Could you do a quick synopsis for me please. Shouldn't be a problem. You're clearly a bright boy

I'd have called him on it,

You like to think that, don't you? Everyone does. It's something clearly wrong and using inappropriate laguage to express that wrongness.
BUT
[url= http://www.simplypsychology.org/asch-conformity.html ]Soloman Asch proved that most people knowing the difference between right and wrong will bow to peer pressure and accept wrong as right[/url] In Asch's experiments, the peer group was around the same size as the OP's and the subjects would contradict the evidence plainly in front of them if that's what the group wanted.
And if you really want to see where this leads, read up on [url= http://www.experiment-resources.com/stanley-milgram-experiment.html ]Stanley Milgram's subsequent experimets.[/url]

never underestimate the power of a mob or a uniform

Has there ever been 'Jock Bashing' though?

Case in point was someone referring to someone from Scotland as a "jock" yesterday; the STW Massive duly took it in the manner it was intended, which was as an affectionate quip. If a similar remark had been make about someone of a different skin colour, we'd all have been reaching for the pitchforks instead.

Are you really this stupid or are you being deliberately obtuse? I'm not aware that Scottish people are still discriminated against in the job market for instance. Or that the word jock recalls a legacy of slavery etc like the N word. We are open about 'racist banter' with the Scottish or French because we don't have a recent history of widespread discrimination against them. I would argue it's different with the Irish because we do have more of a history of racism towards them.

The racist abuse I heard from fans behind me towards the linesman, referee and towards the black Blackburn player was absolutely shocking...as was the delight when Paul Ince scored.

I honestly think a big part of the appeal of football for many people is the chance to let out all their unpleasant tendencies in a big group environment. 😐