[Closed] Drinking With Racists

I would have said something. Would have tried to be diplomatic about it but personally I would have said something. I dont think youre a coward for not doing so though.
Probably be the last time I went drinking with them though.

Don't worry about it, just don't go out with them again. Simples 🙂

I think it was in Dan Walsh's book (These are the Days That Must Happen to You) where he retold a story he'd heard from an Argentinian bloke who was in a pub in Newcastle during the Falklands war.

A large, short-haired fella with tattoos and a football shirt comes up to him and asks where he's from. The Argentinian bloke says... Argentina.

Geordie: Just as long as you're not for Gateshead.

Not sure how relevant it is, but I suspect black, brown, southern, northern... they'll say they hate them. So it's not prejudice as such.

Sadly "Darkie" is still used around areas of the NE, not a pleasant word but was used commonly for along time in the NE so some still do.

This bit "they're all money-grabbing b******ds" "ah couldnae work for a darkie like".is going way too far in my opinion, it's not easy to speak up a large group and even more so when your new and out of the area. Probably best to defuse like you did they may get the message.

Interestingly or maybe not, I regular got what may be seen as racist jokes regular of a few different friends on my phone. In the end when I seen them face to face I'd told them not to bother sending me those ones, been friends with them for years too. Still am mind but the jokes have stopped.

Pick your battles. I have the same at work and it's difficult to challenge if the problem is 'that's out of order' you'll just get a shrug. When someone spouts prejudice based on incorrect facts then it's a lot easier to correct them (immigration is bad for the country, coming here to claim benefits and send them home kinda thing).

The only time I've got properly angry with someone at work was when they said 'All WW2 films make the Germans look worse than they were because the Jews control Hollywood' I had to go for a walk to calm down after that particular 'discussion'.

I'd have called him on it, with something like 'well why's that important?'

You might expose an undercurrent of bitter hatred, but you might just make him stop and think 'er, I dunno, I suppose it's not important'.

As somebody who has worked for a darkee, I can assert with some confidence that they're right. They are indeed all they're all greedy money-grabbing b******ds

Only kidding. Some of them are ok 😉

In all seriousness, it depends on your background. I imagine most people on here live a nice cosy, middle-class, Guardian-reading existence. There's very little racial tension. You sometimes forget that there are areas of the country far less cosmopolitan and racially diverse. And therefore the prejudices are just more common and acceptable.

They probably think you're gay too 😀

Tricky one, have young lads at work who come out with racist stuff, pretty easy to tell them to stop being such idiots but with a group of your peers when you're relativley an outsider....dunno. Does seem a bit cowardly, either mtfu and tell them or don't meet them in future is probably the "proper" answer. Maybe try to re-educate them when there's only one or two of them?

After the "ah couldnae work for a darkie like" comment I would have (and have) used the line "Really? It wouldn't have bothered me but then I'm not a racist".

This has the effect of either drawing them out in which case you confirm that are indeed racist scum and you should find new friends. Or it can go the other way and get the "well neither am I, but it's just different " defensive response. This one means that you may still need to find new friends or possibly it was just crude an insensitive language being used without malicious intent or thought.

Either way the important thing is not to let it go unsaid. So yes I think you should have said something but it may be that you were a bit taken aback by the situation. Maybe catch them next time, these views shouldn't go unchallenged.

Did you win anything?

Nah. I got onto the bonus wheel and got up to £8 but then it screwed me.

Shooduv thrown poo in his face.

Didn't have any handy.

Don't worry about it, just don't go out with them again. Simples

Mmmm... except: they are friends of friends. It's a very small village. And I have no other mates in the area. Plus this is my only regular social activity (14mo baby = no spare time. I can only manage this because the pub is literally 50 yards from my house).

Bring a 'darkie' mate along next time.

I think a variant of muppetwranglers,a slightly less aggressive way would be to say "Really? why not?" get them to explain why it's a bad thing, they may have suddenly come over all shy.

Solicit their views on southerners, scousers, the french, people from the next village etc...

I bet they say exactly the same things.

And in reality they'd quite happily work for them.

After the "ah couldnae work for a darkie like" comment I would have (and have) used the line "Really? It wouldn't have bothered me but then I'm not a racist".

That's pretty good! I like.

Just walk away, dont get involved, easy.

He has every right to expres his opinion, we dont and cant all agree on everything.

personally I decided along time ago that I would not let homophobia or racism go unchalleneged wherever I was or whatever the consequences. I have had to run for my life once from a rather animated [ ironicaly black man] who was going to kill me for defending gays as being ok at a party.
I certainly could not let it go. It is however often difficult to know when ignorance and racism meet. I come form a wee scottish village and some relatives [ who have never left there] call people darkies. They are most definetly ignorant though I am less sure they are racist. I do chalenge them they invariably then think coloured is ok 🙄
I think refusing to work for one and thinking hard working "darkies" are greedy shows that whatevr a memebr of that racial group does they will find a way of negatively spinning it which shows racism rather than ignorance or banter.
I think you neeed to speak up or you will just drift out tha social scene and they wont do.
EDIT: What about tutting loudly and getting some pamphlets for them and but them all a Nelson Madela T-shirt?

Quite a quandary there Graham, I've was an Equality & Diversity Advisor (as a secondary function of my primary role) within the MoD for 4yrs and in that time I must have presented MoD policy to 000s of military recruits and attached Civil Servants, I think its safe to say I came across every opinion you can imagine and a few more besides. To counter racism you have to understand the root cause of that individuals racist beliefs, is it social conditioning, xenophobia, family pressure, personal experience etc and each cause requires a different response to "re-educate" and sometimes you just have to accept that you're not in a position of influence/authority to do this. At the end of the day it depends how much you value their friendship over this individual/groups opinions. I know what my response would be as I've done it on many occasions and that's to challenge what I find unpalatable, but equally I've had many opportunities to do so and to craft my input accordingly.

If drinking is your only social activity find yourself a hobby or a pastime. Drinking with a bunch of people you're uncomfortable with doesn't sound great to me.
Get yourself some Unimog Lego sets, throw the instruction away, by the time you get it all working your village will become a city 😉

I'd fuggedaboutit. Everyone's entitled to their own views and opinions, you're not going to change his - you just run the risk of isolating yourself, as the chances are, others in the group share his views.

As long as his views don't impact on you, put you in an awkward position (involving others outside the group, of course) and you're not forced to compromise your own views and beliefs, I'd just let it go.

I drink with Labour supporters, and everything!

That's pretty good! I like.

I can't take credit for it. Ms muppetWrangler works for the NHS and often get comments about the "**** doctors" despite none of them actually being from ****stan. She probably uses the line a couple of times a month. Obviously the dynamic is different to being in a pub but she's only ever got the defensive "well no neither am I" response.

Hmm.. I'd rather sit in and watch TV than drink with racists to be honest.

To be fair I think at least part of his objection was that the "ethnic gentleman" wanted to pay cash-in-hand, no receipts at considerably less than the going rate - which fitted with the previous comments about "being greedy" etc - but again I'm not sure he would have raised the same objection if I'd asked him to do some work for me on the same terms.

"GrahamS, no, it'd be different as you're one of them (so to speak). He'd be doing you a "favour".

In all seriousness, it depends on your background. I imagine most people on here live a nice cosy, middle-class, Guardian-reading existence. There's very little racial tension. You sometimes forget that there are areas of the country far less cosmopolitan and racially diverse. And therefore the prejudices are just more common and acceptable.

I can't see much sense in that reasoning tbh. I come from Brum but live in Devon. There's virtually no racial diversity or tension here but the overwhelming majority of people are overtly racist and words like ****, coon, **** etc are in common usage. Far more so than my experience in Brum although I'm not saying that racism didn't exist there too.

I imagine most people on here live a nice cosy, middle-class, Guardian-reading existence.

I don't!

I can't even afford the Gaurdian. It's too expensive. 😥

Just walk away, dont get involved, easy.

[i]First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.[/i]

[b]All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing[/b]

So, not speaking up = cowardice? Yes, in my book. I'd rather stand up, confront the bigot and get a thump, than not say owt. Not voicing any opposition serves only to validate his attitudes and behaviour.

But as suggested, there are subtle and less confrontational ways of challenging such a dick. So don't beat yourself up about it, but have a think, and the next time this prick says owt stupid, you can be prepared with something intelligent that will make him look a fool.

Why not organise a little racially integrated field trip. A sort of grown up exchange visit. Maybe a couch trip for you all, from the pub, to Notting Hill Carnival next week. They can embrace 'darkee' culcha. Drink red stripe. Smoke big spliffs and stuff. Maybe get some comedy rasta wigs?

In return, some 'people of colour' could be invited to the North East to drink WKD, go out in sub-zero temperatures with virtually no clothes on, have a fight outside a kebab-house and fall asleep in a pool of their own vomit.

Just a thought.

Knew a guy once who was always making racist comments, but passing it off as a joke. Ha Ha we used to think, he is funny, not racist. Then one day it turns out a pretty attractive lady has the hots for him. He was not exactly a looker and apart from this occasion never really a hit with women. Anyway, he turns her down 'because she was asian'. I didn't even notice, thought she just had a tan, english sounding name and so on. But no, he asked her outright and then blew her out.

It made me realize: there is always meaning behind those off hand throw away comments. There is no 'its just banter', and no 'if its not them its the next village etc etc.

So anyway I would have told them it didn't bother me who I worked for.

racism is a game Every nation of the world plays innit?

In return, some 'people of colour' could be invited to the North East to drink WKD, go out in sub-zero temperatures with virtually no clothes on, have a fight outside a kebab-house and fall asleep in a pool of their own vomit.

Oooh! Oooh!

(Jumps up and down frantically waving hand in air)

I went to Stoke once. There were girls in boob tubes and wide belts, with white stilletos on, tottering about.

I was wearing a puffer jacket. And I was still cold. 😐

Just walk away, dont get involved, easy.

He has every right to expres his opinion, we dont and cant all agree on everything.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
[i]Edmund Burke[/i]

The quote is a bit melodramatic given the circumstances but the [assumed] racist should know that you disagree with him, if enough people did this eventually he might realise that his view is out of step with society and reconsider at least his language or better still his viewpoint. Walking away changes nothing and as the OP has already said makes him feel bad as well.

[edit] Too slow and probably too predictable with the Edmund Burke quote.

Quite a few years ago, discussing a new girkl who was chineese and good at her job, trainee Occupational therapist, i said to my lady boss and her mates, strange she didnt stay in takeaways and restraunts.

I got shot down, until i finally got the chance to explain a mate was chineese, his family had a large chinesse restraunt and his family would not speak to him when he went to uni to study electronics, instead of working for the family as all the other brothers did, and that the young ladys family had a large restraunt and takeaway buisness and she had experienced the same, shame they had not even spoken to her first.

I never did get an apology.

But as suggested, there are subtle and less confrontational ways of challenging such a dick

Yes, and more effective too. In many cases a 😯 'you what?!' as if they just said they like to dress up in women's underwear would be much more effective than a Guardianista style rant.

So that's why Chris Hughton got bumped.

Are your friend's names Joey, Kevin, Andy, Jonas, Fabio and Shola, by any chance?

have a think, and the next time this prick says owt stupid, you can be prepared with something intelligent that will make him look a fool

I imagine most people on here live a nice cosy, middle-class, Guardian-reading existence.

Tick! As cosy and middle-class as you like.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing

Yeah I was going to quote Burke in the original post, as it was on my mind. I even got as far as [url= http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke ]looking it up on Wikiquote[/url].

I'd rather stand up, confront the bigot and get a thump, than not say owt.

You're coming at it from a slightly different position though Elf - being.. err.. "lightly-tanned" yourself. You'd be standing up for "yourself" - whereas I might come across as over-sensitive twitchy liberal PC police, being offended on behalf of other people.

have a think, and the next time this prick says owt stupid, you can be prepared with something intelligent that will make him look a fool.

Wise words!

^^^ LOL ^^^
[edit] too slow to respond to the NUFC joke [/edit]

Change them from within.

First become an accepted member of the group and then show them by your example there are other ways of perceiving things.

You don't need to come over as a complete puritan and neither do you have to cut yourself of from other people whose views you don't entirely agree with.

I'd have called him on it. I've done it before, and I'll continue to, though never as a big confrontation, 'cos that sort of guy isn't going to back down in public.

5th, the only people we really hate are Mackems, but interestingly, stick Geordies and Mackems together in, say, London and there's an instant North-Eastern bonding against the common enemy. We're allowed to hate each other, but it's a family thing - outsiders absolutely aren't allowed to get involved.

Mancunians aren't hated so much as pitied, and we don't consider the Midlands as anything other than a place to avoid. London's a foreign country, to be sampled cautiously, but they all talk funny down there and have strange beer. We like Scousers though, for some strange reason.

m

on the plus side the economy must be looking up if people are turning down paying jobs... 🙂

5th, the only people we really hate are Mackems

innit?

was that racist?

Just say to him "Making that comment was rather ignorant, wasn't it?"

when he asks why, say "Having to ask why is rather ignorant, isn't it?"

and so on...

Just say to him "Making that comment was rather ignorant, wasn't it?"

when he asks why, say "Having to ask why is rather ignorant, isn't it?"

Like it. But surely this ends up as a fist pie.

I was told about a guy who doesn't like 'immigrants' coming over here, taking our jobs, etc.

He works in Afghanistan.

challenge him i'd say.... done it many times in the past and will continue to do so.

i'm the victim of unintended casual racism most days at work, luckily i'm in a position in which i can stand up to people without fear of anything coming back at me

5th, the only people we really hate are Mackems, but interestingly, stick Geordies and Mackems together in, say, London and there's an instant North-Eastern bonding against the common enemy. We're allowed to hate each other, but it's a family thing - outsiders absolutely aren't allowed to get involved

Happens eveywhere, we used to have inter-village fights, and we all worked together. Occasionally we'd get together for a night out in the nearest big town and it would become the villagers against the townies.

For the OP, I doubt reasoning and rational debate is going to change his views, put up or walk away. I used to have a drinking buddy who was a racist, not a close friend, just one of the more regular guys in the pub. On the whole he was fine but sometimes he'd go into a racist rant, he'd discuss it but was never going to change his point of view. Interestingly enough he wouldn't express his views when there foreigners in the pub either.

Like it. But surely this ends up as a fist pie.

Nah it's not that sort of pub, he wasn't that pissed and, despite the shaky racial viewpoint, he is otherwise a nice enough guy.

(Also he's 53. I'm 36 and a fair bit bigger than him)

portlyone - Member

on the plus side the economy must be looking up if people are turning down paying jobs...

I usually try to question such daily-mail fuelled racist comments as the OPs case by injecting a similarly controversial contrasting view along the lines of "its not the hard working immigrants you wanna be worried about- we've got far too many thoroughbred english dole scroungers grabbing money off the ordinary working man" - gets 'em thinking at least.... 😀

gets 'em thinking at least...

I really am surprised some people don't get punched more

I'd have said "You ain't a man until you've had a bit of tan"

It's true.

I once went out for a drink with my mate and he brought this idiot along with him who i'd not met before. We got a taxi into town, and he refused to put any money in towards it because the driver was Asian!
The night went downhill from there, and I never saw the fool again.

Two weeks later I'd pulled my missus who is of Afro-Caribbean dissent.

It's an interesting, yet highly rewarding life - Wedding in October 😀

We were once sat in a nice hotel restaurant down the Cotswolds and there was another mixed race couple sat a table or so down. The waiter came over and asked if they would like any condiments, to which the anglosax guy said (not wanting to draw attention to the colour of his missus skin) do you have any Dark Sauce? Me and the missus could hardly contain our laughter!! Must have been early days.

We now refer to any other mixed race couple we see as - Dark Sauce and Mayonnaise! 😀 A club I wholeheartedly recommend.

I usually try to question such daily-mail fuelled racist comments as the OPs case by injecting a similarly controversial contrasting view...

I'm not sure that spreading out the hate does anything to dilute it 🙂

I really am surprised some people don't get punched more

Too quick on me feet, in't I Binners?

Sting like a butterfly, run like a bastard...

I'm not sure that spreading out the hate does anything to dilute it

the aim would be to show a deliberately small minded view against some other values to show up the small mindedness of the original comment....

But yeah, I agree with some there's no changin them sadly

Sting like a butterfly, run like a bastard...

LMAO. I'll be stealing that one. 😀

run like a bastard

You will this weekend, when I come chasing after you with some sheep-shears in my hand.......

We now refer to any other mixed race couple we see as - Dark Sauce and Mayonnaise! A club I wholeheartedly recommend.

You are all very bad. 😆

Sting like a butterfly, run like a bastard...

Nice one Fred. A philosophy i whole-heartedly embrace.

Reminds me of the Seb Coe quote. When asked why he took up running, he said "when you're called Sebastian and you grow up in Nottingham, you learn to run fast"

I managed a business a few years back where the Chairman of the group actually told me not to employ any Asian staff as it would upset the workforce. At the time I was really shocked and seriously considered jacking the job in over it. I spoke to my older brother about it, on the basis that he had a good deal of experience in the field of race relations, and was a bit taken aback to get lambasted about my soft liberal attitudes. Basically telling me to get a grip and that the only way to sort it out was from within, so take the opportunity and do something about it.
So that’s what I did, and went off and simply recruited whoever I felt best for the job. Shockingly the first person I employed was an Asian lady.
Sure enough, some gorilla from the shop floor came to me saying that he and the lads weren’t prepared to work with her. I responded by telling him that I was very sorry to hear that, but in the circumstances I had not choice but to accept their collective resignations. Strangely I never heard another word on the subject from either the shop floor or for that matter further up the ladder.

I’ve also had a similar experience with a riding buddy who was prone to racism. Simple solution being that I choose not to ride with him, and when asked why I will tell him.

I don’t think there is any need to lead the charge of the Light Brigade, but I do think you need to get a grip of the reality, i.e. do you want to be complicit in racism. The fact is currently you are.

Yeah, but he's also a Tory scumbayg needs to be able to run fast I'd fling my poo at him an' all.

You like that one innit Graham? 😀

whereas I might come across as over-sensitive twitchy liberal PC police, being offended on behalf of other people.

Oh come on, if you believe that racism is utterly wrong then stand up for that belief and say something.

Edit: what berm bandit said

GrahamS - Member

Sting like a butterfly, run like a bastard...

LMAO. I'll be stealing that one

I've noticed that mixed race couples seem to enjoy making mildly racist (or ambiguously racist) comments at all opportunities.

5thElefant I expect you'd class 'ebony & ivory' by Stevie Wonder & Macca as being mildly racist (or ambiguously racist) in the same way then? 🙄

You're coming at it from a slightly different position though Elf - being.. err.. "lightly-tanned" yourself. You'd be standing up for "yourself" - whereas I might come across as over-sensitive twitchy liberal PC police, being offended on behalf of other people.

I don't see it like that really. Racism is racism, whoever it's directed against. TBH my own colour don't come into it; I've challenged other 'brown' people for racist comments and views. I'll challenge anyone who comes out with racist shit. I don't discriminate..

5thElefant I expect you'd class 'ebony & ivory' by Stevie Wonder & Macca as being mildly racist (or ambiguously racist) in the same way then?

Fred is an equal opportunity ranter 😉

I despise everyone, equally. 😀

You quoted Dark Sauce and Mayonnaise, I quoted Eboney & Ivory as a parallel surly even you can comprehend that?

And I'm so offended at being called a prat and right on, do you live in the past 😆

You quoted Dark Sauce and Mayonnaise, I quoted Eboney & Ivory as a parallel surly even you can comprehend that?

And I'm so offended at being called a prat and right on, do you live in the past

As you're deliberately trying to twist an observation I've made about my friends (prompted by a vaguely related story) into some kind of racist attack I won't bother getting drawn into an argument.

I'll leave it at prat, but feel free to fill in a different word.

[i]Sometimes Love Just Ain't Enough[/i]

As you're deliberately trying to twist an observation I've made about my friends (prompted by a vaguely related story) into some kind of racist attack

I was doing the exact opposite actually, I was indicating how you were saying the Dark Sauce and Mayonnaise is a 'mildly racist' when in fact it's not and you were being as you would say 'right on' and overly PC. There that's it spelt out so plainly even you should be able to understand it.

Nice to see some numpties tarring all Geordies with the same brush.

OP - you are talking about someone from an older generation (where racism was more tolerated - TV in the 70s etc) in a fairly rural place (where there are generally lots of white locals who have lived there for a long time). I doubt you'll change his mind on anything, never mind people with funny accents. This is not a Geordie issue. I bet he went to school with his peer group and they were all white and local - you can find these people everywhere.

You have to live there - fairly small-ish community. Either drink elsewhere or deal with it next time it comes up.

Don't know if you remember that Panorama documentary about traffic wardens in Sunderland? The one where they used secret cameras to film the wardens targetting folk due to their skin colour? They also had lengthy conversations of a very racist nature and lots of them lost their jobs thereafter.

I watched it and thought it was tame compared to my old workplace - when I first moved to Sunderland (10 years ago now) I got a part time student summer job working at the beach, hiring deck chairs and the like.

The daily racism was a shock to me - skin colour not really a factor; foreigners all got it in the neck from my workmates. Indeed one of my colleagues was african and was told on a daily basis that he was a "black bastard" and was "taking the bread out of our mouths". That lad was perfectly capable of standing up for himself so I didn't feel the need to get involved, other than to have a quiet word with the boss about the staff room banter. Didn't change anything...

Do I think the NE is less accepting of incomers? Yes, and I think that certainly in the case of Sunderland, it's because it's essentially a collection of villages, so retains a bit of a small town mentality. The first black / yellow / Polish faces were only seen here a decade or so ago (with the odd, rare exception) and the place is still adjusting to getting all cosmopolitan...!

OP - I reckon there's nothing wrong with expressing your views - I wouldn't go drinking with racists, but then I have a choice and feel your pain! You might not change the way they feel about it, but you will certainly feel better for being true to the way you feel...

Playing devil's advocate slightly, whilst what this fella has said is unacceptable, it's probably 99% drink-fueled bluster.

Expressing these type of views isn't the worst thing in the world, it's not like he's abusing kids! He's just gobbing off.

If he was violent or abusive to anyone of foreign descent, then sure, it would be appropriate to do or say something about his behaviour, but I'd put money on him not actually having the courage of his so-called convictions. Like most people that spout that sort of nonsense, he would probably be perfectly polite and accommodating if he was actually in the presence of "darkies".

I speak from experience: I have a close relative of a similar age, from a similar background, who expresses similar views.

If you base your experience of the North East on Sunderland, then you have a smaller town mentality than anyone around you.

isn't the worst thing in the world

Maybe not, but the reality is that it is an insidious process which starts with small issues and eventually ends up in things like ethnic cleansing. Its much easier to challenge it when its not "the worst thing in the world", and before its escalated into what potentially is the worst thing in the world. Similar really to the dog name thread. thats also not the worst thing in the world, but denial leads to the errors of history getting repeated through ignorance IMHO

Maybe not, but the reality is that it is an insidious process which starts with small issues and eventually ends up in things like ethnic cleansing

I'm sorry, but that's utter cobblers