On a personal level theres nothing I want more than a kid or 2. However we tried for years, were now both 40, cant afford IVF the and missus isnt that bothered for kids now anyway TBH. Saddens me but thats the card I was dealt. I do believe the planets over crowded anyway so at least I'm not contributing I suppose.
it’s not all doom and gloom and fights and trips to the naughty step, but a lot of it is. and my son is an angel compared to some of the children in our neighbourhood and that isn’t a blinkered opinion.
I find posts like this very saddening. In the last 5 years i honestly can't recall more than 1 occasion where i've had to enforce the rules with mine. I think there was another than was a "do you want me to sit you on the stairs and talk to you like you're 5 again".... but that's seriously it...
Have kids, like most I suspect; my first was an accident. Second was planned. No regrets, they seem like well adjusted humans, I like them, I think they like me, (at least they pretend to wen they're around me) other people find them OK also, My job in that respect seems to have been a success, yey!
I feel sad for folks who want kids but can't have them, I was completely ambivalent before having mine.
Life (especially at the young age I was) is never clear, what you want one days often changes and as we grow we see things differently. To misquote Jefferson "we may as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him a boy" to live in a world when once you made a decision on something it never gets changed
you are wrong.
i can’t help thinking that when people with children vehemently defend their decision or criticize other peoples’ decision and their reasons to not have children, or say “when they first ride a bike/read/whatever it’s the greatest day ever” are trying to fool themselves that being a parent is great. that, or they are in denial.
You took one piece of my post and read into it what you wanted. I didn’t criticise anyones choice. I didn’t “gush”, I didn’t say it was the “best thing ever” I didn’t say “being a parent was great”. I most certainly didn’t “vehemently defend” being a parent. Quite the contrary, I said it was hard, messy and for me during the early years, very difficult.
What I said was that it’s the small things that makes the difference and it’s the small things that people without kids don’t see AND that it’s difficult to explain and quantify those things.
As for the elephant/drugs analogy - don’t be so obtuse.
i just don’t understand all the gushing that goes on about how great being a parent
Maybe some of us are more proud of our kids achievements than you are, maybe some kids deserve it because their achievements are hard fought.
. I didn’t criticise anyones choice.
Your actual words;
No one who hasn’t had kids can make an informed decision as to whether they regret it.
That’s criticism.
Maybe some of us are more proud of our kids achievements than you are, maybe some kids deserve it because their achievements are hard fought.
Robin Williams did a routine about kids and not knowing if they'd end up "I'd like to thank the Nobel committee" or "Do you want fries with that?"
The important thing to bear in mind is that the second option may be just as hard fought as the former, depending on their route through life.
not exactly, but you can learn a lot about yourself from experiencing them.
I know more than enough about myself already to know that I don't want kids.
So many parents tell me that having kids is one of the most amazing experiences of life - and for them I'm sure it is. But they also treat it like it's the rarest, most special thing in the world. It's not, it's one of the most common things in the world. That's fine and there's nothing wrong with that, but because I haven't had kids I've had the time and money to be able to experience things like spending 3 months scuba diving in the Caribbean, hiking among the tallest mountains in the world in Nepal and so many other things that are a lot, lot harder to do if you have kids.
Nothing about the last five or six years persuades me that having kids would be a sane decision.
That said, I know plenty of people with kids who haven't stopped having adventurous, fulfilling lives, going where they want and doing what they want. Being really rich seems to help.
@kilo - It’s not criticism of anyones choice, is it!?
Arguably, it’s not criticism at all. It’s a statement, one borne out by the facts I laid out.
The vast majority of those without kids don’t have first hand experience of living day to day, with kids. Those with kids do have experience of what life was like without them. Is there something factually incorrect with this statement?
I’m not in any way criticising someone’s choice, I simply stated that those with kids have a fuller picture, a balanced equation, if you will.
Your implication is that I’m somehow imbalanced in my perception as I’m on one side of that equation. I’m not.
All I said was that there’s a lot you don’t see that sometimes, not always, makes the graft worthwhile.
One again, I never criticised someone’s CHOICE to have kids. What I criticised, was the ability to make an calculated decision when you don’t have all the variables.
Only 13yrs you say, perhaps you should come back to us after the next say 6yrs
Perhaps, but it's still more than 2/3rds of their childhood without such thoughts.
The vast majority of those without kids don’t have first hand experience of living day to day, with kids. Those with kids do have experience of what life was like without them. Is there something factually incorrect with this statement?
Reasonable point.
My retort would be that you know the you after you had kids and the chemical changes that happened in your and your wife's body post birth (that helps you to become a better parent). You don't know the future childfree you that never was any more than the childfree people know truly what they might have morphed into had life gone a different 'with child' way.
Also, and this is semantic but important, you know the you who had not had children YET. Trust me (and you'll have to trust me on this as you won't know as you never experienced it) that is a totally (and I really mean that) different feeling and experience to that of having been childfree forever irrevocably.
So it cuts both ways.
One again, I never criticised someone’s CHOICE to have kids. What I criticised, was the ability to make an calculated decision when you don’t have all the variables.
Someone made the point previously, but it's worth making again I think. The discussion has drifted from the OPs initial question. That was, do those who elected to be childfree regret it longer term. Not, did they lead the best life they could have, but did they regret it - from their perspective and experience beyond that decision. As per usual on this, those with children felt they had to stick their oar in with lots of kids and having kids is awesums posts. Great, I'm glad it was - for you. But why did you feel the need to post that? What was it adding to answering the initial question, other than maybe to validate your own choice or subversively question those who answered the initial request with a subtle (or not so subtle in your case) "look what you could have had, you just didn't know enough to make a proper choice".
So in short, your opinion is irrelevant when measured against the initial point of the OP.
@kilo – It’s not criticism of anyones choice, is it!?
It’s like people saying I don’t mean it in a racist way when they crack a joke someone finds offensive - you don’t get to decide if you’ve given offence, the recipient does.
You are saying my view of my decision is uninformed this, to me, implies that you are consequently saying my original choice might not be correct. If I had this greater knowledge I would now be riven with regret.
Your implication is that I’m somehow imbalanced in my perception as I’m on one side of that equation. I’m not.
My implication is that it’s not necessary to have full and complete understanding of every facet of a situation to make a decision that is correct for me. Indeed in this binary choice it would be virtually impossible to achieve your full understanding whilst remaining childless, it is a non sequitur.
I’m not in any way criticising someone’s choice, I simply stated that those with kids have a fuller picture, a balanced equation, if you will.
That is a criticism and tbe same applies the other way
You cannot have a full understanding of the joys of a childfree life
The key here is understanding the role of oxytocin in having kids. Thats what makes it joyful. Just the release of hormones/ neurotransmitters
That said, I know plenty of people with kids who haven’t stopped having adventurous, fulfilling lives, going where they want and doing what they want. Being really rich seems to help.
And being a man rather than a women seems to really help too. I meet plenty of men-with-wife-and-children-at-home on bike, ski trips, climbing trips. Some child-free women. Hardily ever do I meet a woman who has left the hubby and kids at home to peruse a week's activities for her self.
I was asked yesterday if I had any intention to "settle down" (i.e. have children) by a work colleague. I've been with my partner in a loving and monogamous relationship for 15 years. I'm not sure its possible to be more settled.
It’s like people saying I don’t mean it in a racist way when they crack a joke someone finds offensive – you don’t get to decide if you’ve given offence, the recipient does.
If you had children you would long ago have learnt some perspective and not to take offence so easily.
I’m not in any way criticising someone’s choice, I simply stated that those with kids have a fuller picture, a balanced equation, if you will.
I don't think that's the case. There's a big difference between being childless at 28, but fairly sure that you will have kids, and at 50 when you know it's not an option. The absence of children doesn't make it the same.
You might as well say that me and Tim Henman both know what it's like to never have won Wimbledon. Technically true, but qualitatively they are very different experiences.
Those with kids do have experience of what life was like without them. Is there something factually incorrect with this statement?
Yes there is. You have no idea what a childfree life is like because you haven't experienced it. 45 years of childfree adulthood has to be lived to understand it. You do NOT have the experience of a childfree life. Just some childfree years
who gets vertigo in thick socks
Love that. Never heard it before. Will be using extensively in future. This thread has finally paid off.
I find posts like this very saddening. In the last 5 years i honestly can’t recall more than 1 occasion where i’ve had to enforce the rules with mine. I think there was another than was a “do you want me to sit you on the stairs and talk to you like you’re 5 again”…. but that’s seriously it…
What's the point of this? To tell us all what an amazing dad you are? Or how compliant your children are?
You are saying my view of my decision is uninformed this, to me, implies that you are consequently saying my original choice might not be correct. If I had this greater knowledge I would now be riven with regret.
@kilo - not uninformed, not at all, but maybe incomplete? Certainly it doesn't, in any way make your choice less valid - I think what I was trying to get across (badly it seems) is that there's a raft of things that maybe don't equal the burden (and I don't use that term lightly) of children, but it gives something positive that's hard to explain. I couldn't explain to my 30y old self any better than I'm managing to strangers in this thread.
Yes there is. You have no idea what a childfree life is like because you haven’t experienced it. 45 years of childfree adulthood has to be lived to understand it. You do NOT have the experience of a childfree life. Just some childfree years
Now that's rubbish @tjagain. I had 30 years of child free life, lived in cities, holidayed around the world, went out to 6 in the morning, rode my MTB whenever I wanted...well mostly, I still had the GF/Wife, but I had freedom. I've had 30 years of child free and 10 of them as a professional after graduation. I've had more life without kids (31y) and as an adult (11y) than I have with them (10y). I still get to do the first 2 (it's just more expensive), am not at all bothered by the 3rd one and, well, I do admit to missing the 4th one.
Yes there is. You have no idea what a childfree life is like because you haven’t experienced it. 45 years of childfree adulthood has to be lived to understand it. You do NOT have the experience of a childfree life. Just some childfree years
I might also add, having some childfree years when you intend on having children in the future may well give you a very different experience of those years than someone who wishes to remain child free.
You cannot have a full understanding of the joys of a childfree life
its still more relevant experience than your absolutely zero experience of a life with child. .....
Some thoughts on parenting and an active life:
There’s a fair few people above posting about not regretting not having kids as they can do more with their time. For all of us this would invariably mean more MTB and other active pursuits. Honest parents here would prob admit this is what they would envy most of their alternative imagined child-free existence.
As a parent, I found the pinch on my time to be one of the harder aspects to get to grips with. But I don’t regret the rides I’ve missed as I was needed at home and really enjoy seeing my kids learn and progress their own riding.
Eventually I’d like to get to a point where I’m sharing the amazing experience of a trans-Alpine bike trip with them, as I got to do with my dad.
So I worry less about quantity of rides and focus more on quality, by which I mean who I ride with, the craic, the buzz, etc. I know this isn’t exclusive to being a parent but the time constraints do help you to appreciate every moment you do manage to get for yourself.
I do think that if I didn’t have a love of bikes that parenting would be harder/more boring if I’m honest, it can be a grind that you need an escape from.
Obviously no regrets though. It felt like a natural choice 8years ago. If I was considering having kids today I would think harder. Not sure which way it would go tbh…
"Those with kids do have experience of what life was like without them. Is there something factually incorrect with this statement? "
I think it misses the difference in feelings between someone who wants children and just hasn't had them yet and someone who never wants children.
Apparently when I was under 10 I announced that I didn't want children when asked about growing up. I'm heading towards 50 and don't want children. I've never felt the slightest broodiness when I've been given someone elses child.
As someone who wanted children you have no experience of how I feel as even before you had children I'm guessing you had some interest in them.
Through years of judgement I feel I ought to add a paragraph about how I'm not an unfeeling monster but I'm not going to because my feelings on having my own children don't affect how I feel about anything else. It would be unfeeling to have a child because I'd "probably" love my own.
30 ADULT childfree years?
You had kids in your late 40s?
Trailrat. Borrowing some random children, having a facefull of MDMA to get that oxytocin going and locking us all in a house comes close. Tends to be frowned upon by the powers that be tho🤣
Can we do this and film it? Could be the end point of your travels 😂
The vast majority of those without kids don’t have first hand experience of living day to day, with kids. Those with kids do have experience of what life was like without them. Is there something factually incorrect with this statement?
That's fine, but you can't use it to draw the conclusion:
No one who hasn’t had kids can make an informed decision as to whether they regret it.
You have no experience of being me. You can't make an informed decision about whether or not I'll regret having children or not having children.
I never wanted kids and if I'd never had them I would have been perfectly happy. It probably led to the break up of my first relationship. A few years later my new partner was pregnant, something we hadn't planned. I still didn't want kids but she did so we went for it. I never regret that decision. A few years later we decided to have a second child, again not something I wanted but I didn't want to deny my partner and I got a new bike as part of the bargaining process. My kids are now 19 and 14 and are the best thing I've ever done. Had so many wonderful experiences with them and they've turned out pretty ok so hopefully other people will benefit from my mistake all those years ago.
I vividly remember asking my mate at his stag doo if he'd got over 'their' differences about children. He did not want children, she definitely did. Everyone knew this. Disaster from the start as the marriage didn't last 12 months. He's still not had any kids and is happy enough.
Only thing I regret is I'd be loaded if I didn't have two kids ! Ah well ! At least we have some life back as mine are 19 and 21 now !
it can only be a good thing that some on here have made the choice not to carry on their gene pool.
Yes, it's almost like they know themselves and have taken a considered decision on what's best for themselves and others.
not something I wanted but I didn’t want to deny my partner and I got a new bike as part of the bargaining process
There's a lot to unpick here isn't there.
Must say, from what I read on the previous thread, and what little I’ve read of this one, it can only be a good thing that some on here have made the choice not to carry on their gene pool.
That's pretty toxic.
it can only be a bad thing that some on here have made the choice to carry on their gene pool.
Eventually I’d like to get to a point where I’m sharing the amazing experience of a trans-Alpine bike trip with them, as I got to do with my dad.
Thing is, there is no guarantee your kids are going to like the same hobbies you like.
Would you still be so happy to spend the time sitting in a stuffy swimming pool watching your kido progress their swimming? Having your 1-on-1 time in the car cos you're taking them to early morning training and to galas around the country?
Or if they weren't sporty, but were big into musical theatre or something and relished trips to London to see the shows?
I’d like to get to a point where I’m sharing the amazing experience of a trans-Alpine bike trip with them
It might identify as such but it'll never be a real Alpine trip.
There’s a lot to unpick here isn’t there.
Not really, I went for brevity and humour over boring details.
Ah. Again, it's so hard to tell these days.
Having your 1-on-1 time in the car cos you’re taking them to early morning training and to galas around the country?
That's when my daughter and I have some of our best conversations. We have a shared playlist for car journeys so she doesn't have her headphones in listening to her tunes.
Kitty - true enough, although the signs are there hopefully. I have made my peace with them possibly not being into MTB but I've done the groundwork at least for them to love being on bikes for fun and not relying on being ferried around in a car for every trip to other activities.
And they already are into the other things you listed - seeing them get enjoyment and develop in anything is a buzz in itself. But biking together would be extra special - got to have a pipe dream.
This thread is now closed. Play nice please people.
