Why is everyone so mute?
They dont care. Like the Tories in the uK. They didnt give a damn about the electorate and were more than happy to screw up the economy, an economy that will hurt the electorate, but they did so for their own political reasons and career.
I dont know when it actually happened, but at some point, maybe in the last 2 or 3 years it became about them and not about us. Possibly farage or one of the other populists are to blame, but I feel the real blame lies with social and mainstream media.
Where there hell is the opposition? Where are the Democrats? Why don’t they have a leader of the opposition to speak out?
There is an opposition, Bernie Saunders has recently been very vocal and he launched his well publicized "fighting oligarchy" tour just a couple of days ago.
The problem is that Bernie Saunders despite his unquestionable commitment is 83 and just one man. The centrists who did so much to thwart Saunders attempts to secure the Democrat nomination appear to be totally paralysed by the sight of Trump hitting the ground running.
So it's up to the 83 year old to take on Trump and Musk.
Unfortunately giving Trump such a clear run and leaving it to one man has its consequences..... Trump's approval ratings aren't bad at all they are better than Joe Biden's were at the start of his presidency.
Where there hell is the opposition? Where are the Democrats?
Various people at the state level are but a problem with the presidental system is they dont have a "formal" leader of the opposition.
If they controlled either congress or the senate that person might be able to act as it but since they dont it doesnt really work.
Why is everyone so mute?
Suspect the truth is a bit simpler than that posted above. First, the opposition is a bit irrelevant currently, and second, Trumps voluminous shit just sucks up all the bandwidth the media has to offer.
You think it is a deliberate tactic and not connected to the fact that the Democrat establishment is clueless as to what it should do?
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/02/us/politics/democrats-trump.html
More than 50 interviews with Democratic leaders revealed a party struggling to decide what it believes in, what issues to prioritize and how to confront an aggressive right-wing administration.
As Democrats face the reality of President Trump’s second term, they share a fundamental belief: This moment calls for an inspirational message from their party.
They just cannot decide what, exactly, that should be.
In private meetings and at public events, elected Democrats appear leaderless, rudderless and divided. They disagree over how often and how stridently to oppose Mr. Trump. They have no shared understanding of why they lost the election, never mind how they can win in the future.
Eight years ago, after Mr. Trump’s first victory, party officials followed the lead of liberal voters, who rushed to protest, poured money into Democratic campaigns and ran for local offices. This time, demonstrations have been minimal to nonexistent, as corporate leaders curry favor with the new administration and liberal celebrities mute their opposition out of fear of retribution.
The lack of public outcry has left Democrats debating whether liberals are simply tired of politics or whether they agree with more of Mr. Trump’s platform than they want to admit.
While your enemy acts like a deluded fool, sit back, say nothing and smile.
Where are the Democrats? Why don’t they have a leader of the opposition to speak out?
There is an opposition, Bernie Saunders
But the question was 'where are the democrats'. Bernie Sanders isn't a member of the Democrat Party. Even though he's sought the presidential nomination from the party in the past he sits as an Independent in the Senate.
While your enemy acts like a deluded fool, sit back, say nothing and smile.
Do you smile while people starve, do you smile when Ukraine's resources are divided up by despots and fascists, do you smile while the WHO is defunded and medical aid is taken away from those most in need, do you smile while the UN is pulled apart, while world peace crumbles and a new axis of evil emerges.
This isn't a game, this isn't a TV show about Washington or Westminster bubbles, politics is real life with real life consequences, political actions can cause millions of deaths and untold suffering without even needing to wage war.
Does that make you smile?
I’m not going to smile while it goes on. But I have a little sympathy for the Democrats - what should they do?
*They* have no idea why they lost - I also have no idea why they lost. I don’t know what they can do to ensure they win next time.
i just don’t understand how the people of the US voted that way. They did, I don’t deny it, but I can’t understand it.
it doesn’t seem to be in their best interest, I think they knew that, and they did it anyway. How do you counter that? Facts and reason don’t seem to work. You can’t out-lie DT.
as for what to do now - they cannot really stop anything. They don’t control either house, and DT et al are ignoring the convention, the courts and the law. What makes you think *anything* the democrats do would be effective.
note I don’t say they shouldn’t try, but I sympathise because I don’t know what I would do on their shoes.
waiting a little while to let some of the chaos pass and things unravel a bit before saying “this is what you voted for, please don’t do it again” doesn’t seem a terrible strategy TBF
Where there hell is the opposition? Where are the Democrats? Why don’t they have a leader of the opposition to speak out? Why is everyone so mute?
There is plenty of opposition, but it doesn't make our news over here due to the volume (in both senses) of shite coming out of the Trump administration.
Bernie Sanders is speaking brilliantly, and there's a couple of younger female Democrats tearing it up in both Houses making the Trumpists look stupid.
My worry is that until America properly collapses due to the nonsense Trump is pushing - and that may descend to conflict on some level or other - then the sensible majority will not succeed. Either way, the US will either split permanently, or be too busy fixing stuff, that they won't have time to care about the rest of the world. I think China and Russia understand this and are ready to capitalise, I think the rest of the world needs to prepare for that outcome ASAP
waiting a little while to let some of the chaos pass and things unravel a bit before saying “this is what you voted for, please don’t do it again” doesn’t seem a terrible strategy TBF
Of course it is a terrible strategy. It relies on the requirement that things get extremely bad, with obvious consequences, and the belief that will automatically transform the opposition into some sort of savours.
It is basically the same logic as claiming that the best way to defeat growing support for Reform in the UK is to let them win the next general election and screw everything up.
It only begins to make any sense if you see politics as a game with no real consequences for yourself.
I have little doubt that Trump's fairly healthy approval ratings is at least in part due to poor and ineffective opposition. How much do you expect people to oppose something if they don't hear compelling counterarguments?
How much do you expect people to oppose something if they don't hear compelling counterarguments?
That's about poor media coverage and everyone being in an echo chamber. Probably more the latter, to be honest.
Sadly, until one of his big policies fails badly and really hurts a significant number of the ordinary folk who voted for him, people aren't going to be having major changes on the position.
It is basically the same logic as claiming that the best way to defeat growing support for Reform in the UK is to let them win the next general election and screw everything up.
Except it's not at all. Do something about reform now, they never get into power. Jump up and down now about Trump, so what, he still has 4 years to serve. You can't kick him out, he controls both houses. I applaud Bernie's sentiments but what is it going to achieve...absolutely nothing. American voters have proven they simply don't care..twice
You can organise protests all you like, or you can sit back and watch it all go pear shaped. Hopefully the short term pain will mean he loses one of the houses soon enough, which is the point that the backlash should begin..
Do you honestly believe the Democrats calling out his lunacy now will change anything? They've been slating him for years, all it does is embolden the right.
It relies on the requirement that things get extremely bad, with obvious consequences, and the belief that will automatically transform the opposition into some sort of saviours.
But without proof that the Trumpist nonsense is painful and damaging, what else can they do?
They ran a campaign on 'it will be like the last time, but worse' and the voters said "yes, please"
They could have assassinated Trump and he'd be a hero. He needs to be shown to be a malign dictator before any redneck will believe it.
There is a budget due in 3 weeks - that's when the real politics will take hold. Mike Johnson will likely get burned between the zealots, and those wanting to keep their cushy positions.
They could have assassinated Trump and he'd be a hero. He needs to be shown to be a malign dictator before any redneck will believe it.
Exactly this - Trump and his MAGA world are a cult, and until it visibly, obviously fails, either by harming ordinary people desperate enough to believe or by showing the funnelling and abuse of wealth and power, opinions won't change.
Please re-read history... when they make things worse for ordinary people, both in terms of economics and safety/security, that's when the real power grab comes. Breaking things isn't the fallout for these people... it's part of the plan.
It is basically the same logic as claiming that the best way to defeat growing support for Reform in the UK is to let them win the next general election and screw everything up.
It really isn't.
Trump's approval ratings aren't bad at all they are better than Joe Biden's were at the start of his presidency.
Biden took office in the middle of a Global Pandemic and directly after the Capitol Riots...he then had to steer the US from a global medical emergency, through a global energy emergency and into two significant changes in global peace. Not enough credit is given to the Biden administration for what they managed to help America through in those 4 years. Trump is currently living on Biden's record and we'll have to see if Americans are willing to put their money where their mouth is once all the tariffs really start to bite.
Despite many problems with Biden's health and family, he lost the election on his perceived handling of the economy despite most of the drivers being outside of his control. Heck, in a global sense, America did well!. The Republicans may face the same economic music in next 2 and 4y, but it will be directly because of them.
Please re-read history... when they make things worse for ordinary people, both in terms of economics and safety/security, that's when the real power grab comes. Breaking things isn't the fallout for these people... it's part of the plan.
So what do you reckon the best approach is? Since you are so keen a student of history you will be well aware that calling trump and his cronies out over the past 8 years led to him being voted in again. Like it or not, over 50% of US voters didn't seem to care when warned what trump would do, nor about his character
In contrast..The fact that he got voted out after one term suggests to me that what matters to voters far more than 'calling him out' is the poor job he did and the impact it had on their every day lives
This will be magnified 10 fold as he and musk manage to xxxx up everything they touch
Obviously, seeing this unfold won't be pleasant, and there will be casualties. But Democrats voicing concern at this stage won't make a jot of difference.
My worry is that until America properly collapses due to the nonsense Trump is pushing - and that may descend to conflict on some level or other - then the sensible majority will not succeed.
This. The problem the Democrats have isn't just about their messaging it's how do you fight blatant lies when the electorate largely doesn't seem to care and legal protections are being eroded by the day. It doesn't help that Trump is able to use social media to rapidly propagate the lies and mainstream media is either pro-Trump, cowed into silence or largely irrelevant as the only people listening to them are already aware but largely powerless to do anything.
As it stands I think it will go one of two ways:
1). Trump overplays his hands/acts too quickly and the resulting chaos (e.g. economy collapsing, large-scale union action etc.) is enough to trigger mass protests and non-compliance. Doubtful this would actually have an immediate impact though, it would probably only mean he tempers plans for the time being and adjusts the timescales (the old boiling a frog metaphor). With mid-terms a long way away and him controlling the House + SCOTUS there's little chance of a successful impeachment no matter what he does. At this point he doesn't need Musk either (maybe as a useful idiot/scapegoat in the near future but not beyond that).
2). The US descends into a fascist oligarchy (or theocratic dictatorship) and it will probably need some violent intervention to rescue it (whether that's a civil war or a wider war), but that's likely many years away (probably after his 3rd term once he's handed power to his successor). Sadly I think this is the more realistic prospect (as crazy as it would seem only a few years ago).
But without proof that the Trumpist nonsense is painful and damaging, what else can they do?
Have you forgotten that this is the second time that he has won a presidential election? And the last election was his best ever result.
The alternative to doing nothing is to offer some opposition and to expose Trump as a demagogue. No wonder his approval ratings are so good when people are led by believe that there is no alternative. Throwing in the towel now simply helps the far-right build their base for the next presidential election, and the next demagogue, it certainly doesn't weaken them.
And yes imo it is the same logic as believing that the best way to tackle the far-right in the UK is to accept the inevitable and to them screw up when in government.
The "that'll teach 'em attitude" to voters is not one I subscribe to. Politics is a serious business with serious consequences IMHO
Have you forgotten that this is the second time that he has won a presidential election? And the last election was his best ever result.
And the one following his 1st term was his worst election. Which kind of indicates, that whilst people have short memories, doing a crap job that impacts the voter won't get you reelected for a consecutive term.
The only thing that has been consistent since Donald emerged as a presidential hopefully 10 years ago is the amount of abuse he's taken (justifiably) from the Democrats. They even managed to get him convicted in a criminal court ffs and it made zero difference. If you honestly believe continuing to point out all his flaws will make a difference you are delusional
And yes imo it is the same logic as believing that the best way to tackle the far-right in the UK is to accept the inevitable and to them screw up when in government
Once again..it's not the same at all. The 'inevitable' has already occurred in the US.
But for sake of discussion, why do you think the dems calling out trump as an idiot now is going to make a jot of difference, when it's not worked for past 10 years. The only epiphany we can hope US voters have is when his policies start having a direct impact on their lives. Which they will have, sooner rather than later.
The US descends into a fascist oligarchy
I think the ship has sailed on that one.
why do you think the dems calling out trump as an idiot now is going to make a jot of difference, when it's not worked for past 10 years.
The dems spent the last 10 years calling voters idiots for voting for Trump. Until centrist parties like the Democrats (and tory and Labour in the UK, and CDU et al in Europe) start listening to voters and delivering what they want, instead of lecturing them and calling them idiots and racists the likes of trump et al will be going nowhere.
*They* have no idea why they lost - I also have no idea why they lost.
Perhaps because they covered up the fact that Biden wasn't up to the job from the latter part of the first year of his term, sidelined anyone who brought it up, deliberately gave Harris a poison chalice in responsibility for the southern border, and he only abdicated when they couldn't cover up his cognitive decline any more and it was too late to rehabilitate Harris' trashed reputation or come up with a differentiating strategy for her, or replace him with anyone else?
That's before you get into the wisdom of choosing a black female candidate for an election that you say that you consider to be existential, and choosing a prevaricating moderate as an attorney general when there is reasonable evidence that your opponent tried to foment a coup rather than peacefully transfer power to you when you won the election.
And yes imo it is the same logic as believing that the best way to tackle the far-right in the UK is to accept the inevitable and to them screw up when in government.
OK, well, allow me to correct you. It isn't.
The dems spent the last 10 years calling voters idiots for voting for Trump. Until centrist parties like the Democrats (and tory and Labour in the UK, and CDU et al in Europe) start listening to voters and delivering what they want, instead of lecturing them and calling them idiots and racists the likes of trump et al will be going nowhere.
What do you think the politicians would hear, what is it that the people would want @dazh
That's before you get into the wisdom of choosing a black female candidate
Are you saying it's because they are all racist and sexist?
That's wrong. They are also angry and stupid.
Anyone who voted for Trump must be in one of those categories.
The Dems put up a sensible candidate against a ridiculous, joke option. No-one sensible should have voted for the criminal liar and his band of misfits and mis-shapes.
But they did.
The option for Dems to put up their own joke candidate next time is just plain wrong. It'll simply escalate into an arms race of stupidity and Idiocracy will become real.
Let's have the burning, let's get reality to set in to the deep down MAGA morons and a reset can take place.
Otherwise it's Civil War time (the film, at least)
What do you think the politicians would hear, what is it that the people would want
I think they'd hear the message loud and clear that voters are sick of seeing their living standards get worse while public services and everything around them crumbles into dust while at the same time a tiny number of incredibly rich and priveleged people seem to get ever more rich without ever having to pay anything back.
They'd also hear that working people are sick of being lectured by those who are supposedly superior to them that they should talk and behave in certain ways or believe certain things. People are capable of an enormous amount of tolerance and empathy with their fellow citizens but don't like having it rammed down their throats at every available opportunity, especially during times when they themselves are struggling and see little empathy in return from those giving out the lectures.
And the one following his 1st term was his worst election. Which kind of indicates, that whilst people have short memories, doing a crap job that impacts the voter won't get you reelected for a consecutive term.
Eh? Only in terms of the weird and frankly ridiculous electoral college, not in terms of voter support which as I understand it is what we are talking about.
Trump's support did not fall at all in the 2020 presidential election relative to the 2016 election. In fact his support increased very slightly and he received over 10 million extra votes compared to 2016.
And the 2024 presidential election result does not indicate that US voters can't remember Trump's first term, in fact it suggests the opposite - what seems to have clinched it for Trump in the final stages of the campaign was him repeatedly asking voters if they felt "better off than four years ago".
The truth was that they didn't. Whether that was all Joe Biden's fault is another question but the reality is that until the covid pandemic came along the US economy actually performed reasonably well under Trump. Voters remembered that.
In truth, Harris didn't excel in the election run-up. She really failed to articulate a vision for America that would appeal to more than the solid 35-40% of of the electorate that her base represents. Trump didn't win, Harris lost. Trump got almost the exact same amount of votes in 2024 as he did in 2020. Harris got ~20% less than Biden.
Are you saying it's because they are all racist and sexist?
No. But some of them will be, and it the Democrats really thought that it was an existential election, then it probably wasn't the time to be testing the limits of their progressiveness.
That's wrong. They are also angry and stupid.
Again, some of them may well be, but as in my previous post, there are good reasons why people may not be enamoured of the Democrats, and in reality it's not so much about the people who voted for Trump, but the ones who didn't turn out for the Democrats, for, IMV, good reason.
In truth, Harris didn't excel in the election run-up.
Joe Biden didn't excel either during the election campaign, which is why he had to pull out at the last knockings. Which worked significantly in Trump's favour - many Democrat supporters resented the fact that Kamala Harris was an imposed candidate without any democratic process taking place. Plus she was obviously also tainted by the fact that she was a vital part of the Biden administration.
Someone free of the Biden legacy would have made a better candidate.
But the point that Harris lost rather than Trump won is a valid one imo. And it generally represents the current crisis is Western democracies, ie governing parties lose national elections whilst opposition parties generally win them by default. Anyone who is honest will recognise that is exactly what happened in the UK last July.
She really failed to articulate a vision for America that would appeal to more than the solid 35-40% of of the electorate that her base represents
More importantly, she had an annoying laugh, apparently.
That was the level of discourse in 2024 - do you speak of your vision like a grown up? Or make repetitive obvious untruths that only a moron would listen to?
And which one worked?
Moaning that Joe was this, and Harris was that ignores what the actual opposition was. It should have been a walkover.
So they now have a criminal in the WH, doing criminal things.
And they are still blaming the dems! (as are you!)
And they are still blaming the dems! (as are you!)
Yeah blame voters rather than failed politicians, that always works so well.
Unfortunately whilst you can change politicians you can't replace voters, so what ya gonna do......throw in the towel and give up on politics?
This is absolutely brilliant :
"President Trump has bruises on his hand because he’s constantly working and shaking hands all day every day,"
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/2019382/donald-trump-bruise-hand-white-house
Say what you like about Trump but the entertainment value of his presidency is unmatched.
I blame the French geezer with the macho grip btw, although how his fingers managed to extend right round to the back of Trump's hand I can't quite figure out. Unless Trump has unfeasibly tiny hands?
Say what you like about Trump but the entertainment value of his presidency is unmatched.
Nothing entertaining about it.
I take it that you aren't a Jon Stewart/Daily Show fan then pondo.
Jon Stewart helps me to remember that there is so much more to America than all the negatives that so many people seem to want to solely focus on.
Jon Stewart imo does more to undermine Trump and his MAGA fanbase than the average Democrat. He does that of course by very much focusing on the entertainment value of Trump and his supporters idiocy.
I take it that you aren't a Jon Stewart/Daily Show fan then pondo.
The statement I replied to said:
Say what you like about Trump but the entertainment value of his presidency is unmatched.
I make a distinction between
- someone being a dick, and
- someone making fun of someone being a dick
That they can be mocked does not make their dickishness entertaining, IMO.
I agree that America (specifically trump/republican voters) need to "feel the pain" of their choice. They have allowed themselves to be duped by the most obvious conman, who I'm certain that they knew was a conman, but believed that THEY weren't going to get shafted - just everyone else. They chose to believe the lies that fit their narrative, and ignored all the evidence that didn't. A kind of complicit ignorance. There are a dozen proto-trumps waiting in the wings..... these people have to learn not to just vote for another variant of the same thing next time. The turkeys need to learn (like REALLY learn) that voting for Christmas is not in their best interest.
The Democrat's primary failing was the lack of succession planning for Biden. He was only ever going to be a single term president because of his age - and he barely made it to the end of that single term. Harris had 4 years to position herself as his successor - but somehow ended up having to do so in literally the last few weeks, and create a campaign on-the-fly. It felt half-baked, because it was
I'm sure books will be written on what Harris did wrong - but I think to say she "lost" the election is unfair. As I've said previously, democracy doesn't really have an answer for somebody like Donald Trump who is just prepared to lie constantly about absolutely everything, particularly when they have the backing of a huge media machine like Fox news, and now Facebook/X. The courts have now been stacked, the gerrymandering will get worse.... it's only going to get harder from here.
Say what you like about Trump but the entertainment value of his presidency is unmatched.
I blame the French geezer with the macho grip btw, although how his fingers managed to extend right round to the back of Trump's hand I can't quite figure out. Unless Trump has unfeasibly tiny hands?
Looks like a bruise from a cannula to me - they can cause quite bad bruises for people of his age.
I don't think there is anything 'entertaining' about Trump, the man is a text book psychopath, but I'm glad you find some humour in it.
It felt half-baked, because it was
I saw it differently.
I saw a glimmer of hope after it seemed that Trump was gifted another term once someone shot at him.
It was a campaign of optimism and positivity rather than Biden's 'More of The Same' and Trumps 'Everything is bad so you might as well have me'
It looked, briefly, like sense would prevail. A real grown up in charge, trying to help all.
And the opposite was more appealing...
As some random bloke thousands of miles away, there's nothing I can do about the USA's descent into a fascist hell-scape, so terrifying or no, I may as well point and laugh. Plus of course, folks like Trump absolutely hate being made fun of. So there's that at least
Whilst the Democrats have many flaws (and are basically a right of centre party) their basic message is supporting and improving the lives of all US citizens, whereas the Republican message is supporting and improving the lives of a select few. However they've now managed to convince a majority that they are part of that select few (despite massive amount of evidence they aren't/won't be). The problem is by the time enough of them realise that it will be too late.
Trump has effectively taken control of USPS so that's postal voting out of the window (which traditionally favours Democrats) and once they've gutted the federal governmentthey'll move on to blatant election interference by over-turning voter rights and supporting Republican state level gerrymandering. Unless there's a collective awakening or the Republican legislative branch grows a backbone the next US Presedential election won't be fair (if it even happens at all).
Moaning that Joe was this, and Harris was that ignores what the actual opposition was. It should have been a walkover.
So they now have a criminal in the WH, doing criminal things.
And they are still blaming the dems! (as are you!)
Who GAS about blame? What's the point in trying to "blame" anyone?
What I'm trying to point out is that it's not just about opposition - that's actually the root of the problem! Your opposition needs to both represent the people and to articulate a plan to deliver it - that's what people vote for.
People voted for Trump, rightly or wrongly, but they voted for something. Less people voted for Harris, because there was no clear message from her or the Dems. A significant part of the Dems strategy was to be simply NOT Trump. Brexit, the latest GE, the recent European elections and yes, USA 2024 was a demonstration in the power of people voting FOR things, not against. If you want to win, you need to give people something to vote FOR.
