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I just don’t understand how rich owe so much money yet stay so rich.
In general terms rich people get rich and stay rich by spending other people's money.
I wonder if some of the banks may be hesitating now they have a) more information on his debts and how they are stacked and b) dozens of journalists going through every deal in detail, highlighting every lender and the deal. What was private is about to be shown in detail in the glare of journalism.
May some of these lenders be making a decision that getting out is needed?
I just don’t understand how rich owe so much money yet stay so rich.
If you owe 50 grand, the bank owns you. If you owe 500 million, you own the bank.
I had a similar conversation with my missis when some rich person was buying a football club, after which loan debt would then be transferred to the club.
'So why can't I get a loan to by a football club and do that?'
Nope, I couldn't really explain the logic of that either.
The lenders who have been splashing the cash might have to come up with answers to their backers as to whether they showed due diligence in giving Trump the money.
Does Trump have access to firearms in his White House bunker?
Just for historical comparison purposes...🤔
He claims his tax returns are "under audit" but surely there's a time limit on that process - checked on the IRS site and three years is the norm but under exceptional circumstances "if we identify a substantial error" they can go back six years.
So he's either paid no tax or made significant errors in his tax returns for many years.
So he’s either paid no tax or made significant errors in his tax returns for many years.
Why not both? I think the second option was employed to achieve the first. Well, if you substitute the word 'fraud' for 'errors'.
If you owe 50 grand, the bank owns you. If you owe 500 million, you own the bank.
If you owe the bank 50 grand its your problem, If you owe the bank 500 million, it's their problem.
I had a similar conversation with my missis when some rich person was buying a football club, after which loan debt would then be transferred to the club.
Like every other Man Yoo fan, I've spent the last 10 years looking at the parasites who 'own' the club and wondering how on earth this can possibly be legal. The club had no debt at all, then the 'owners' loaded it with the billion they borrowed to buy it, at crippling interest rates, while ripping huge sums out for themselves in 'consultancy fees'
It does seem that there's a financial VIP club where once you're a member then the rules that govern everyone else's finances no longer apply, and you can pretty much do what you like
Is this the tipping point?
Is this the 'october surprise'? Hopefully there's more. I like to think Biden is getting briefed and drilled within an inch of his life right now, not literally obvs given his age and frailty
He claims his tax returns are “under audit” but surely there’s a time limit on that process – checked on the IRS site and three years is the norm but under exceptional circumstances “if we identify a substantial error” they can go back six years.
So he’s either paid no tax or made significant errors in his tax returns for many years.
He applied for a 70-odd million dollar rebate a while back I think, which triggered the IRS to review everything. Suspect he's been stretching that out for as long as poss, but if the decision goes against him he owes them $100M.
Also in the Cohen book, the IRS sent him a cheque for $10M.
https://twitter.com/CarlosLozadaWP/status/1310423537644077057
Sexual misconduct doesn’t stick, racism is good for business, dissing the military seemed reasonably toxic but unfounded and ‘in the moment’, let’s hope this is the one. It’s been a spectre for the entire presidency and bizarrely has been suppressed despite it being a thing for presidents to disclose.
Then there’s Russia.....
Is this the tipping point?
People have been suggesting the arrival of tipping points every month from mid 2016 onwards!
Truth is, about 35-40% of the US electorate does not give a shit.
Truth is, about 35-40% of the US electorate does not give a shit.
Or cheering him on for beating the system. Most of his base are relatively high earners, with relatively low levels of education. They see taxation as the government taking what is theirs, with no thought to what they might be doing with it (giving refunds to rich people it seems, but that’s not the point).
Must take some stones to, as a multimillion/billionaire, physically write that you owe less for a year than the average person pays for roughly a month.
I agree about his base, they will actually lap this up.
Might persuade some moderates that enough is enough.... Mind you, you'd think they would have thought that a few years back!
America with Trump is in the same position as us with Brexit
We'd deluded ourselves into believing we were a warm, fuzzy, liberal nation of tolerant and inclusive people
Now the reality has been ruthlessly exposed. Actually, a large percentage of people, possibly the overall majority, are petty, small-minded, nasty, intolerant racists.
Trump (and Farage and Boris over here) have just legitimised being open and unapologetic about that.
The one thing that is quite surprising is how legitimising racism seems to have overridden every other consideration. The right to be openly racist is clearly really, really important to an awful lot of people
Or cheering him on for beating the system. Most of his base are relatively high earners, with relatively low levels of education. They see taxation as the government taking what is theirs
Absolutely this. This is not a tipping point. Might just make a few waverers waver a bit more
The one thing that is quite surprising is how legitimising racism seems to have overridden every other consideration. The right to be openly racist is clearly really, really important to an awful lot of people
What's interesting is how it was framed. Both Trump and Brexit were described as "a rejection of political correctness" or "a backlash against metropolitan elites" but really those a just euphemisms for much darker motivations.
This is not a tipping point.
I suspect there never will be one. His comment about shooting someone on 5th Avenue and getting away with it was bang on, except now he could probably lay waste to a packed sports stadium and be fine.
for a lot of his supporters the only thing they'll think when they read any of this is :
"I wish I could cheat as well as that"
They don't want the bullying to stop, they want to be the bully
They don't want the system to be fair, they want to be the ones exploiting it
They don't want racism to stop, they want 'the others' to go away
They don't want everyone to benefit, they want to be the winners, which means there have to be losers
etc. They admire people that climb to the 'top', even if they step on them to get there, they're just looking for others to step on so they can do it too. It's a different mindset.
Might just make a few waverers waver a bit more
Well that's all it will take, the number of undecideds is smaller than ever this election due to the polarization. Hopefully tax avoiding on a massive scale will finally be enough for a steelworker in Pennsylvania or retiree in florida
Given the strength of polling, I think the only thing that is a big concern now is the shy trump voters, the unknown lumpen who are turned on by his racism and egregiousness but are just a little bit intelligent enough to actually be ashamed about it.
That and the transfer of power
They admire people that climb to the ‘top’, even if they step on them to get there, they’re just looking for others to step on so they can do it too. It’s a different mindset.
Exactly. Poor people don’t want obamacare/affordable healthcare because they don’t want to pay for everyone else ‘when I get rich’ 🤦
America, in my mind, is where Germany was in the late 1920's early 30's, under a major political swing. If Trump gets in for another term, especially in light of the recent nyt report, who knows where the world will be in a year or two.....
I wonder how far the democrats would get with ‘if you pay more than $750 a year in tax, the rich President thinks you are a mug’
That, along with anyone who has served the public good, be that forces or any sort of civil job, is pretty much everyone, no?
Actually, how about framing it as the people who DO pay tax effectively paying for his incompetence. The taxpayer funding loss makers sounds a lot like *wispers* socialism
except now he could probably lay waste to a packed sports stadium and be fine.
He effectively has, many times over.
He effectively has, many times over.
I was going to mention that, but there’s enough nutters to shout that down, I’m talking about him going seat to seat with a Gatling gun.
Might persuade some moderates that enough is enough…. Mind you, you’d think they would have thought that a few years back!
https://twitter.com/ForecasterEnten/status/1310210307177041920
Lolz, apparently there’s a trump tweet lambasting Obama for paying 20.5% tax on 790k, whilst raising taxation levels. Presumably he thinks he should only have paid 0.1%
Sir David Attenborough this morning said: "The present administration in America is from a conservationists point of view, a disaster". "But there we are.That's who's been elected and we have to go through it".
Just another thing that Trump doesn't give a flying fig about.
Will Biden attempt to raise trump's tax returns and payments in the debate taking place tomorrow?
The 6 subjects have been decided but Biden must raise this - it's a clear open goal.
An electorate can and does forgive their preferred candidate/party or choose to ignore subjects; there a limited number of subjects which matter at the most personal level and money is one of them.
Anyone remember Leona Helmsley, massively wealthy and obnoxious US widow who did time for tax evasion, who allegedly said '...taxes are for the little people'.
That, I think, would be a great line for Biden to use.
The NY Times article is an interesting read.
IRS long running audit is into $79 million tax refund which trump claimed; I have no doubt that he is being obstructive as the risk to him is massive - fraud, repayment, costs, reputational damage.
His finances appear to be a masterpiece of creative accounting; $747,622 of tax deductible 'consulting fees' are an exact match to fees received by a consulting firm co-owned by his daughter lover ivanka; $100k tax deductible fees to hair & beauty firm favoured by - yes, you guessed, ivanka.
Bank loans falling dues over next 3 - 4 years; $300 million - where will he find that?
Timing of the article is perfect.
Will Biden attempt to raise trump’s tax returns and payments in the debate taking place tomorrow?
Clinton raised it in 2016, his response was 'that makes me smart' I think. But yeah, Biden will bring it up.
Depends how Biden's tax affairs compare....
For those in the TLDR cat of teh ny times article https://www.fastcompany.com/90556946/trump-tax-returns-top-5-jaw-droppers-from-the-nyt-expose?partner=rss&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=rss+fastcompany&utm_content=rss
Trump's main appeal to certain supporters is his ability to upset "the librul snowflakes".
It doesn't matter what else he does as long as liberals are upset.
So if not paying tax upsets the liberals then it is "a good thing" for his base.
They will admire it. Bizarrely.
Any attempt to say he is not paying his way will be met with "he donates his entire presidential salary" (ignoring that it isn't actually that much compared to the taxes and he makes lots of money by holding government business at his own resorts).
Depends how Biden’s tax affairs compare….
This is what he's made public. $1.5M federal tax paid in 2018 if I've read it correctly.
https://joebiden.com/financial-disclosure/
Well, we now know why he wants (at least) one more term... if he's not in charge in the coming years, he'll be bankrupt (again) because of how much debt needs to be repaid in that time, and because his dodgy tax refund claim could be declared invalid by the IRS.
“The present administration in America is from a conservationists point of view, a disaster”. “But there we are.That’s who’s been elected and we have to go through it”.
A scary watch.
This is the other side of the Trump family's business practices...
https://twitter.com/briankoppelman/status/1310397949831249920?s=19
'Q Right. But can you give people an idea of how much you actually are paying?
THE PRESIDENT: Yeah, basically — well, first of all, I’ve paid a lot, and I paid a lot of state income taxes, too. The New York State charges a lot, and I paid a lot of money in state.'
Just noticed one of his response. Is that possible with US tax? I thought both state and federal were progressive taxes based on declared income (well it is in New York). So how can you end up paying zero federal and 'a lot' of state income tax? 🤔
Isn't it interesting that when you turn up to a mansion in Florida and find that the person inside is heavily armed and threatening to harm themselves, you "create a rapport", whereas if you turn up to an apartment block in a ghetto and find that the person inside is unarmed and threatening to harm themselves, you shoot them.
whitestone
Free MemberHe claims his tax returns are “under audit” but surely there’s a time limit on that process – checked on the IRS site and three years is the norm but under exceptional circumstances “if we identify a substantial error” they can go back six years.
Basically it seems that he's managed to make the tax "audit" (which is a mix of audit and appeal and suit and countersuit) so complicated, with so much fraud, so much evasion, so much misdirection and so many simultaneous appeals and so much litigation, that it could take forever, unless they just settle and give up. A comment from a state tax officer in the last election was that he didn't understand why Trump didn't just pay his state taxes, since he was definitely spending more on fighting the bill than the actual bill cost- but then he realised that his state's bill impacted the federal tax and other states' tax so by tying one up he could tie them all up more.
Of course, being under audit doesn't mean you can't release your tax returns. And that's part of the genius of Trumpishness, people talk about why it's under audit and don't realise that it doesn't matter. He's not released his tax returns because he's not released his tax returns, it's the only reason.
scuttler
Full MemberSexual misconduct doesn’t stick, racism is good for business, dissing the military seemed reasonably toxic but unfounded
Dissing the military was absolutely founded. It's just that like Blue Lives Matter people, most of the folks who say they love the military didn't really care. The only mistake in that attack line was that people thought it was new, when in fact it was really just old news reheated that people had forgotten about because it's so unintuitive that people know about it and don't care.
Jamze
Full MemberThis is the other side of the Trump family’s business practices…
Every time people said "Having a businessman as president is good, he'll run the country like a business" I said "You know how he runs his businesses, right? Spends a load of other people's money, shafts a load of workers and small businesses using his expensive lawyers, then declares bankrupt and runs away with as much cash as he can fit in his pockets". And that's literally what's happened.
They admire people that climb to the ‘top’, even if they step on them to get there
The American dream
So how can you end up paying zero federal and ‘a lot’ of state income tax?
You can't. Trump (unsurprisingly) doesn't know what he's talking about, and is making it up. I would bet money that he's never completed a tax return in his life, legal or (probably mostly) otherwise. The Trumps have always avoided paying taxes, and have employed people to make sure that happens.