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Sedition carries a maximum sentence of 20 years, just go for that, the evidence must surely be overwhelming? Simple and straightforward I would have thought. If it isn't there is something seriously wrong with the judicial system imo.
I have absolutely no idea if this is the case but it occurred to me that as at the time of the attempted insurrection Trump was commander-in-chief this might in affect mean that he was subject to military law.
If this is the case then a court-martial would seem to be appropriate. I think that the maximum sentence a US military court can impose for sedition is death.
Okay I appreciate that I am entering the realms of fantasy but there is no harm in imagining the worse case possible scenario with regards to Trump's punishment.
Currently he doesn't seem to be suffering that much with apparently a huge fundraising boost and his foes within the Republican Party rallying behind him.
the evidence must surely be overwhelming
So you keep saying, but unless there's a smoking gun that I don't know about, I've not yet seen anything that indicates he can be shown to have directly instigated what happened, to satisfy a jury beyond a reasonable doubt to guarantee a conviction.
I'm sure he wanted it to happen, I'm sure his words were taken to encourage it to happen, but proving it legally, I'm not sure they have enough to risk running it, and risk failing.
unless there’s a smoking gun that I don’t know about,
I am sorry I didn't realise there was any doubt that the mob of Trump supporters that attacked the United States Capitol Building in Washington, to stop a joint session of the United States Congress, did so because they were incited to do so by Trump.
The idea that it had nothing to do with Trump's speech sounds totally bizarre to me.
I thought that Trump's speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of the state provided overwhelming evidence.
As I say, if it is not that straightforward then there is something wrong with the jucial system imo.
Edit: In December, a congressional committee filed an 845-page report on the insurrection at the White House on 6 January 2021.
They concluded that Mr Trump and his allies had a "multipart plan to overturn the 2020 presidential election", including the attack on the Capitol.
Is that ^^ the smoking gun that you were looking for?
Is that ^^ the smoking gun that you were looking for?
Not really. He is a one trick pony but is very good at being vague about things and mostly hinting rather than giving direct instructions.
So did he cheerlead and incite them?
In casual conversation I would go with yes but in the beyond reasonable doubt and courtroom level evidence I think I would have to go with not beyond reasonable doubt.
According to the congressional committee, and their 845-page report, there is sufficient evidence , they recommended that Trump be indicted on four criminal charges.
they recommended that Trump be indicted on four criminal charges.
Which is not the same as overwhelming evidence that will guarantee a conviction. I hope he goes down for it, but I'm not sure he will.
Okay fair enough maybe not for you but for me it is overwhelming :
Some of it, such as points 9 and 11, is either factually correct or not factual correct. It should be quite simple to establish in a court what is factually correct.
The congregational committee didn't seem to have a problem and stated it as fact.
Where is Binners when one of his graphics is needed?
Some posters are incredibly tedious - and have been for too long on threads about UK politics - but seem to think that linking to other people's words lends weight to their posts.
Are they as tedious in real life? Assuming, of course, they have a real life.
Yawn.
@ernielynch
If he gets tried for sedition, and if you and I were on the jury, I think it's highly likely that we would vote him guilty. But, for whatever reason, the wheels of justice are turning very slowly in the DOJ. I'm hoping they are building a watertight case but equally, they might be bricking it because of potential fall-out and are just kicking the can down the road hoping the problem goes away...
for whatever reason, the wheels of justice are turning very slowly in the DOJ
From what I understand, Merrick Garland is a very methodical guy. He will want to make sure that any charges they eventually bring are backed up by solid evidence and the case isn't dismissed because of silly mistakes. Yes, everyone knows that Trump incited an insurrection, but that's not actually evidence that will stand up in court. What they need to do is to go through untold thousands of emails, text messages, video clips, etc. and collect evidence that he knew the effect his words were having and that he wanted a violent uprising, not a peaceful demonstration. That will be backed up with interviews of key witnesses, etc. It takes a huge amount of time to put all that together.
Just because those are the most serious charges doesn't mean that he shouldn't also be charged with any other less serious charges in other jurisdictions. The NY case is totally unrelated to the Georgia case and the insurrection case. They are all being investigated by different people in different places so charges in one case aren't being traded off for charges in another.
From what I’m reading the Georgia charges are very serious as he was recorded trying to coerce a state election official into “finding” home 13,000 votes.
Then there are also rumours that his accountant of 30 years has flipped. The accountant kept double books, has already been found guilty and is currently serving 5 months in Rikers Island, and is now facing new charges.
While the wheels of justice are turning slowly they’re going to catch up with him in the end, and whilst it may prove a boost to his base and his fundraising a lot of Americans are seeing him for what he is. The constant drip drip of info will erode support from the more rational GOP voters leaving only a fanatical base who will eventually do something really stupid a là Timothy McVeigh which will backfire spectacularly on Trump.
Just because those are the most serious charges doesn’t mean that he shouldn’t also be charged with any other less serious charges in other jurisdictions.
No, but as the less serious charges won't necessarily bar him from standing in the next presidential election in which he is currently the front runner for the Republican nomination, and that the announcement of imminent charges has so far resulted in a $4 million fundraising boost and all his staunch opponents within the GOP rallying behind him, all without the certainty that he won't be acquitted, is it really something to get particularly excited about? Forgive me if I'm not.
but equally, they might be bricking it because of potential fall-out and are just kicking the can down the road hoping the problem goes away…
Politically, the biggest problem appears to be that Republican supporters will see the latest developments as part of a witch hunt, especially as the very serious charges against Bill Clinton never amounted to anything.
The less serious the allegations the more it starts looking like a witch hunt. Calling for the overthrow of the government and fermenting violence is in a class of its own, even senior Republicans were appalled.
If they are worried about the fallout of pursuing the case the prosecution could, I would have thought, perhaps just call for him to be barred from all future elections.
I agree that the wheels of justice are turning very slowing, altogether there are five criminal and civil investigations currently into Trump, it's been over three months since the congressional committee released their 845-page report and called for Trump to be indicted on criminal charges, and he has yet to appear in front of a judge.
is it really something to get particularly excited about?
An ex-president indicted on criminal charges. Yes, that's something to get excited about. It has never happened before.
the announcement of imminent charges has so far resulted in a $4 million fundraising boost
Excellent - as already stated, it strengthens his position in the GOP, and weakens it with the wider electorate. Biden got in mainly on an "anyone but Trump" ticket and those swing voters are unlikely to go back to a Trump facing legal battles, or a party that supported him.
those swing voters are unlikely to go back to a Trump facing legal battles, or a party that supported him.
Ah, that's good news.
swing voters are unlikely to go back to a Trump facing legal battles
He's trying to run for president, but the voters that he needs to impress are constantly reminded of his sleaze and corruption. Nobody can really keep track of all the scandals he's generated, they just blur together, so reminding people of the specific things will be a constant drag on his campaign.
As I say, if it is not that straightforward then there is something wrong with the jucial system imo.
There is, many judges are gifted with jobs for life, and are frequently political appointees, often by Republicans. You only have to look at one particular Supreme Court judge, and the political activities of his wife to see that there’s nothing bipartisan about the court.
35,000 Police on standy by!
The New York City Police Department, state law enforcement agencies, the Secret Service and the U.S. Marshals Service have all been coordinating efforts, while increasing intelligence gathering and mobilization. The police, for instance, sent a stand-ready order to about 35,000 officers, a force larger and better trained than some national armies.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/03/us/politics/donald-trump-nypd-arraignment-jan-6.html
Good job he's not got form for organising mass protests....
I love that his legal team applied to refuse cameras access to the court as it'd create a "circus". Mate, it's your performing elephant and his monkey pals and clown lawyers that do that.
I love that his legal team applied to refuse cameras access to the court as it’d create a “circus”.
Typical tactic of Trump. Will do anything to frustrate justice as long as possible. I'm half expecting him to feign an illness next...
Given trump's recent posts about the judge and the 'kangaroo court' followed by his recent outburst about Jack Smith, I would say the odds are shortening on the judge imposing a gagging order on the orange one.
Edit: In December, a congressional committee filed an 845-page report on the insurrection at the White House on 6 January 2021.
They concluded that Mr Trump and his allies had a “multipart plan to overturn the 2020 presidential election”, including the attack on the Capitol.
Is that ^^ the smoking gun that you were looking for?
You have to bear in mind that these things are partisan. The Democrats wrote a report, and had the majority so it became the official version of events.
Is it true - probably
Is it biased - there's certainly credence given that wouldn't pass a beyond reasonable doubt test. To use the "smoking gun" analogy, a government report that Saddam Hussein has WMD's wasn't the smoking gun. It'd be like having the Labour party investigate Boris's parties, or the Tory's investigate Anti-Semitism. The conclusions would probably right, but the reports probably wouldn't be impartial.
Essentially it's the basis of the prosecution's dossier in any potential court case. It's not the defense.
All five criminal and civil investigations currently taking place into Trump's behaviour/affairs are ultimately responsible to Democrat politicians.
For obvious reasons Republican politicians are generally reluctant to get involved in investigating the former Republican president (the congressional committee had 2 Republican members to the Democrats 7) and generally dismiss the investigations as politically motivated.
Which to be fair has an element of truth, I imagine most people see that. However the more serious and recent the allegations then the less it looks politically motivated and more it appears as pursuing justice.
I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the significance of the congressional committee's findings into the insurrection at the White House on 6 January 2021.
Given trump’s recent posts about the judge and the ‘kangaroo court’ followed by his recent outburst about Jack Smith, I would say the odds are shortening on the judge imposing a gagging order on the orange one.
At the Alex Jones trial recently, I found it hard to believe that the human cockroach didn't spend time behind bars for contempt. But ultimately I think the judge played him just right and allowed him to tie a noose round his own neck.
Trump always believes he is the smartest guy in the room, despite the evidence. I don't think he will be able to control himself and the more he is forced to testify the more he will condemn himself. His l legal teams biggest challenge IMO is going to be keeping him from opening his mouth and letting his stupidity spew fourth into the court.
All five criminal and civil investigations currently taking place into Trump’s behaviour/affairs are ultimately responsible to Democrat politicians.
Point of order! I believe the Georgia "I only need 12,000 votes" investigation is Republican-lead, hence the RINO jibe (though happy to be proven wrong if not)
34 charges.
Hmm.
Fani Willis heading the Georgia investigation is a Democrat.
Fani beats Trump...
I'm already on it, designing rock/paper/scissors memes.
Just in case.
No doubt there’s a political angle but that doesn’t mean to say he’s not still a massive crook. Why do people have to kid themselves that it’s one or the other.
Down like BHS muddyfunster…
Why do people have to kid themselves that it’s one or the other.
Because they’re Nationalist Christians, (Nat-C’s), and Agent Orange is their Born-Again God-King. Simples.
Which is what they are.
Trump’s earlier statement about previous persecutions of “political” figures referenced Nelson Mandela and Jesus. THIS is how he sees himself.
The Son of God, the man who delivered equal rights in South Africa and the man who secretly paid off a pornstar with whom he’d had an affair which he didn’t want to tell anyone about as it would make people think he was bad. LOL 😂.
Imagine trying to write a character reference for Trump... it would just be one line...
Urm, well I never personally saw him murder anyone, so... I guess he's ok?
Looks like it's all going as predicted:
live: Judge warns Trump over threats as he pleads not guilty to 34 charges
This is one of the most important news stories of the year. It means that Republican lawsuits over gerrymandering and election denial will be rejected as nonsense in a critical swing state.
https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1643432745182326785
This is the comic that CountZero linked to above.
Keep in mind, this guy was running to be a Supreme Court justice and he can't even do the polite thing and concede gracefully. Not really going to convince the people who didn't vote for him to change their minds.
https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1643442166214033409
The more I read and the more commentators I listen to, the more I'm convinced my initial reaction to this was correct - from a political and moral perspective, if your objective what to get Trump thoroughly shat on so he'd never he never have influence again and maybe even paid for some of he's pretty obvious crimes, this was not the correct first move. Impartial observers seem far from convinced this a felony rather that misdemeanor. If this does not make the grade and gets thrown out along the way, Trump will look vindicated in his claims of being unjustly hounded to huge swathes of US voters who will maintain that stance if/when the truly despicable stuff comes to pass.
keeps the twittersphere happy and distracted though.
The World would be a better place if he just quietly died.
What clown bike for hopping over skateboards?
What amused me was the judge advising trump to dial down the rhetoric then this morning the key quote from his speech being "the US is going to hell" 😆
The sense of perspective of the Republican party about Trump was summed up by a Republican congresswoman on Radio 4 this morning who said that all great leaders have been arrested, then went on to compare him to Nelson Mandella and Jesus
erm... ok love
I given up trying to figure out the logic of Trump fans,they are just wired different.
fastest way to get this orange turd in prison is to serve him with a gag order preventing him from discussing the case online or in front of more than 4 people. Wait 10 minutes then man the harpoons
Someone needs to turn off the Cern Super Collider, if that twonk being able to rally his cult considering the shit he pulls isn't proof that we're being dragged in and out of more chaotic parallel universes then I don't know what is
There was a trump nutter woman on the news the other night saying she'd take a bullet for him because he would do the same for her. The cult of trump is quite incredible.
and Jesus
I am struggling with this comparison but given the time of year I am willing to be convinced.
Lets get him up on the cross on Friday and see what happens come Monday.
That man is a danger to the USA - it's absolutely frightening.
The only good thing is that he's old and hopefully won't be around much too much longer.
The only good thing is that he’s old and hopefully won’t be around much too much longer.
Just you wait for President Carlson.
There was a trump nutter woman on the news the other night saying she’d take a bullet for him because he would do the same for her. The cult of trump is quite incredible.
This is the problem in a nutshell
That man is a danger to the USA – it’s absolutely frightening.
It is also fascinating in a "rubbernecking an accident on the other side of the motorway" kind of way.
To be honest I had hoped with the example given by America, that more people would see through the lies around the world, but I saw that in Finland last week the populists also did quite well there, which given the Russian invasion of the Ukraine and their membership of NATO being confirmed, you would have hoped the voting population would be more sober.
The problem isn't going away, and while we have leaders from many countries taking advantage, there is no solution in sight. We should remember that the Trump 3 ring act is just an example of the game being played out all over the world.
We should remember that the Trump 3 ring act is just an example of the game being played out all over the world.
Whilst we’re all being distracted by Ukraine, it’s easy to forget how successful Putin has been in terms of his sponsored influence into populist politics such as Brexit/Johnson, Trump and now Finland demonstrates
and Jesus
I am struggling with this comparison but given the time of year I am willing to be convinced.
I'm not until the crowd outside start shouting "release Barabbas".
Or Roger.
Theres just been a woman on the radio who knows Stormy Daniels well. She said she's really sharp and witty (unlike Trump), is absolutely uncowed and unapologetic (despite receiving the inevitable death threats) and has made a statement saying "I've seen him naked, so nothing he can do with his clothes on can scare me" 🤣
She settled for just $130,000 from a man worth $2.5 billion, I'm not sure how sharp that is. But maybe it is, I don't know how desperate he was for her to keep her mouth shut.
She settled for just $130,000 from a man WHO CLAIMS TO BE worth $2.5 billion
FTFY
I'd be happy to take $130,000 off someone who says they've never met me to not say anything about something I definitely didn't do
convert Full Member
The more I read and the more commentators I listen to, the more I’m convinced my initial reaction to this was correct – from a political and moral perspective, if your objective what to get Trump thoroughly shat on so he’d never he never have influence again and maybe even paid for some of he’s pretty obvious crimes, this was not the correct first move. Impartial observers seem far from convinced this a felony rather that misdemeanor. If this does not make the grade and gets thrown out along the way, Trump will look vindicated in his claims of being unjustly hounded to huge swathes of US voters who will maintain that stance if/when the truly despicable stuff comes to pass.
Surely though the people involved in bringing charges against Trump should be doing so purely from a legal point of view? If this is the first case that is ready to bring indictments then it should be the first case for which he is indicted.
For the prosecutors to look at all the various cases surrounding him as a way to remove his power and discredit him as a political figure that would in fact confirm his claims about them being about persecution and politically motivated and not about justice.
These things need to be done by the book, because otherwise they become another way in which he has diminished the country he was supposed to serve.
She settled for just $130,000 from a man WHO CLAIMS TO BE worth $2.5 billion
FTFY
Nah, the $2.5 billion has been calculated by other people, AFAIK Trump claims to be worth a lot more than that.
I don't know what he is currently claiming to be worth, all I can find is that in June 2015 he apparently claimed to be worth $8.7 billion,
I don’t know what he is currently claiming to be worth
Depends if he is writing it on a tax return or a loan application.
Apparently Trump has been slagging off the judge and their family - I'd have thought that breached some sort of rule?
that would in fact confirm his claims about them being about persecution and politically motivated and not about justice.
Trump and his enablers and supporters will use that argument regardless of the charges. So whether it's accusations of vote rigging in Fulton country or illegally removing classified documents, they will always claim it's politically motivated.
It does well to always bear in mind that some of them also made money selling tee-shirts and hats with the words "Lock Her Up" written on them, so y'know...There is that.
“Lock Her Up"
Crooked Hillary?
She said she’s really sharp and witty
Her twitter account is amusing. Lots of responses from her to maga halfwits trying to insult her.
There was a trump nutter woman on the news the other night saying she’d take a bullet for him because he would do the same for her. The cult of trump is quite incredible.
Well his adoring fans appear to be thin on the ground currently.
Donald Trump's calls for mass protests fell flat ahead of his NYC arraignment on Tuesday.
By noon, more than 100 Trump backers had descended upon a park outside a Manhattan courthouse.
https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/death-destruction-wasnt-trumps-calls-181319244.html
Trump and his enablers and supporters will use that argument regardless of the charges. So whether it’s accusations of vote rigging in Fulton country or illegally removing classified documents, they will always claim it’s politically motivated.
Let's not forget Trumps obsession with Hillary's email server or Hunter Biden's laptop.
Republican & Trump hypocrisy at its finest. Of course there's an element of political motivation, that's what happens when you enter politics, behave like a WGBE and provide a never ending stream of subject-matter...
.
And the rats are turning on each other:
More likely though that he's just doing this to try and force Cohen to not testify against him.
Lawyer: Trump would like to miss a few days of his trial because, you know, all the fuss and that and they had to block roads off and it made the traffic really bad in NY when he turned up, so he's thinking of the people.
Judge: This wouldn't have anything to do with the fact Trump has a rally in a different city in a couple of days, would it?
Honestly, can't make it up.
In the continuing story of "everything that Trump touches turns to shit'....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65350125
Mike Lindell claimed to have data that he says proved there had Chinese interference in the 2020 election. He was so sure this evidence was so conclusive that he offered $5m as a challenge fund to anyone who could prove him wrong.
It turns out that was easy - it took a few hours for someone (a trump voting republican) to look at and and determine is was a load of crap. So he claimed his $5m. Lindell is trying to wriggle out of it so is being sued.
Think is though - he was offering $5m to 'anyone' who could prove the data to be false. And to my mind 'anyone' means anyone and everyone who makes a valid claim gets $5m - not just the first person to do so. So get your claims in quick before he gets rinsed by Dominion 🙂
I won't be able to sleep until the wig question is resolved.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1651726886916198400
the daily fail have an opinion piece "Is it too late to ask Donald Trump to the Coronation?" as he's due in scotland on the 6th. Lets hope he gate crashes it and gets jumped on by 20 burly coppers.
I ?think? he was pretending to lift weights. Or maybe he was trying to squeeze out a particularly troublesome turtle head
Is there a very slim person behind that podium, a la Police Academy?