an indicator on how bad Clinton is that Trump got anywhere near the nomination
It's not quite that simple, imo.
Clinton's not that bad, she's just a normal political and a fairly decent human being, considering.
She is getting a ridiculously hard ride though. Half the country is still store about having Obama as president (he's being touted as the worst president ever - seriously?) and they are doing everything they can to assassinate Clinton's character. It's far more vicious than in the past, and far more divisive - which means no-one gets a balanced point of view.
It's got nothing to do with actual facts and actual people. Post-truth era.
So one of the candidates is...
Racist
Sexist
Intolerant
Hot headed
Self confessed abuser of women
Multitude of off the books settlements for a lot of serious issues
Has disjointed policies where they exist and no policies in many others.
Clinton's not that bad
Oh, yes she is.
Don't get me wrong, faced with the dreadful choice I'd vote Clinton then go home and try and scrub myself clean again.
I'd hate to see another Clinton in the Whitehouse, but I fear seeing Trump in there.
cranberry - what is so bad about clinton? - not the lies put about by her opponents but things she has actually done.
Bill Clinton was a sleaze, but actually a very good president & leader. Obama is a great man and orator, but a weak president. Not bad, but unable to deliver the change he promised. With all the powerful lobbies (gun/oil/religious/pharma) I'm not sure anybody could though.
I think America does need someone from outside the establishment to sort out some of the countries issues, it's just that Trump isn't that person. Not disimilar to Corbyn & labour.
Obama is a great man and orator, but a weak president. Not bad, but unable to deliver the change he promised. With all the powerful lobbies (gun/oil/religious/pharma) I'm not sure anybody could though.
I think history will treat him better, faced with a lot of hard choices and the wrong Senate who basically wanted to nullify anything he tried. Health care will probably be his legacy.
I think history will treat him better, faced with a lot of hard choices and the wrong Senate who basically wanted to nullify anything he tried. Health care will probably be his legacy.
A knowledagable observer might suggest he has exposed the GOP for blocking most of teh sensible reforms he proposed however this is America where they don't do detail. He will just be seen as a failure for not getting much done, even though the POTUS has limited powers.
Didn't Obama have a senate majority for his first term? Personally I feel he prioritised winning a second term over reform, but lost his senate majority for the second term making him a lame duck.
Wikipedia has it as democrat majority for his first 2 years passing health care and some gun laws then 2 years onwards split between Congress and Senate blocking his stuff with the government shutdowns etc. Effectively blocking anything he tried to do.
Ah, yes, I'm forgetting senate/congress terms are out of phase with presidential terms, meaning only a few seats up for grabs each time.
I think America does need someone from outside the establishment to sort out some of the countries issues
That makes the job of President sound more powerful than it actually is. Your own reference to the senate and congress and the various lobbies illustrates that the power, authority and influence of that office is quite limited. Someone can be better or worse at being President but nobody is really able to change the job description.
Presidents tend to win, lose and be judged on factors that are outside of their influence. The quote Bill Clinton - "its the economy, Stupid"..... the economy being one of those factors a president has little effect on but can be judged favourably or otherwise because of it.
Trump being anything other that a side-show loon in the whole presidential race and extended 2 year nomination soap opera just demonstrates that the job isn't all that important and that important people have got more important things to do.
This is what the US relies on - The DC machine runs the country, the President is merely a figure head?
Obama will be celebrated for the simple reason that he was the first black president of the US. There will be no/little scrutiny of his actual performance. His hallowed place in History is secure.
Back on topic. Allegedly one of the candidates enjoys/enjoyed extramarital relationships with women?
fifyBack on topic. Allegedly one of the candidates enjoys/enjoyed [s]extramarital relationships with[/s]sexually assaulting women?
i hadnt heard the assault bit - that's new news
Allegedly one of the candidates enjoys/enjoyed extramarital relationships with women?
Yoko Ono certainly seems to think so
I'll leave Cathy O'Briens testimony for JHJ to work through
😀
Oh, yes she is.
Go on? Tell us what you think makes her nearly as bad as Trump?
Didn't Obama have a senate majority for his first term? Personally I feel he prioritised winning a second term over reform, but lost his senate majority for the second term making him a lame duck.
Bit harsh on Obama. He used the majority he had in the first two years to push through the thing that was most important to him, the healthcare bill. And that was hugely devisive in the US. Cost him the ability to do anything else in the remaining 6 years, which he knew was likely but he did it anyway. Chapeau!
was that the bill that Clinton described as the craziest thing on earth?
Back on topic. Allegedly one of the candidates enjoys/enjoyed extramarital relationships with women?
That was from the WorldDailyNews and it's been repeated by Clinton's opponents. Unfortunately though, it's a satirical website 🙂
uwas that the bill that Clinton described as the craziest thing on earth?
Indirectly, I think he was describing the resulting increases in premiums to existing healthcare insurance policies.
Really??????
Tonight: [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0803t52 ]Panorama: Paxman on Trump vs Clinton: Divided America[/url]
[i]Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are two of the most hated and distrusted presidential candidates ever. As the election approaches, Jeremy Paxman travels to Washington and beyond to understand how America's great democracy has come to face such an unpopular choice. From a life-size naked effigy of Donald Trump, to the stage of Avenue Q and the corridors of power, Jeremy meets political insiders and voters on both sides of the gaping political divide and casts his unsparing eye over a nation preparing for a historic election.[/i]
Interesting and slightly boggling read: Women Who Support Trump
https://www.buzzfeed.com/annehelenpetersen/trump-women-vow-were-with-him
Apologies if already posted but for some reason The Trumpet doesn't like this
Panorama/Paxman was good.
Certainly the "shy Trump" voters are a concern, also interesting conversation with a young woman who supporter Bernie Sanders but will vote for Trump
TJ re: Clinton
Totally untrustworthy / dishonest - will do or say anything to get elected or imo for money. She stands for nothing (except herself). Her record in Government is poor to the point of being neglegent. She's the second least popular candidate ever, only Trump is less popular
Rather interesting - DNC caught out paying for agent provocateurs at trump rallies:
"we have mentally ill people that we pay to do shit, make no mistake. Over the past twenty years, I've paid off a few homeless guys to do some crazy stuff..."
Totally untrustworthy / dishonest - will do or say anything to get elected or imo for money. She stands for nothing (except herself). Her record in Government is poor to the point of being neglegent. She's the second least popular candidate ever, only Trump is less popular
Her record as listed was quite good and she has certainly achieved a lot more for a lot of people than Trump or most of the Rep's have (or probably will do)
The popularity is a really interesting thing, it's hard to put it down to facts and there are a lot of things that are mostly gossip rather than fact. She is also associated with Obama but not as charismatic, so a step down from the most liked at one point but been part of an administration that has tried to push progressive politics rather than the dire republican and tea party agenda.
The forecasts are falling to the blue at the moment so I hope they maintain voter momentum and get those people out to vote
http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/senate/?ex_cid=2016-forecast
If those numbers are right she should have 2 years to push forward policy, same as Obama then judge her then
[quote=BigButSlimmerBloke ]Apologies if already posted but for some reason The Trumpet doesn't like this
Thanks - I'd read about it, but not seen it. I can understand why he doesn't like it - all that totally made up stuff about what he said and how he acts.
Clinton is just a typical establishment politician, says what she thinks she needs to to get support rather than what she believes in. Dodgy business dealings in her & Bill's past don't exactly paint a trustworthy picture either.
Anyway they had their chance with Obama but without a congressional majority ended up wasting it. As the quote goes, in a democracy every nation gets the government it deserves.
says what she thinks she needs to to get support
Luckily though, what she thinks she needs to say is far closer to what people need than the vitriol coming from Trump and are more palatable. If you focus on issues rather than the person she's clearly the best of the two options. If you focus on the person rather than the issues, she's still clearly the best of the two options.
You play the game you've got, not the one you wish you had. Look at France in 2002 for what people should do when they recognise the insanity of one candidate over the unpleasantness of the other; Chirac won the largest ever mandate from the French people despite being pretty unpopular.
says what she [b]thinks[/b] she needs to to get support
that key word in the middle, when the other bloke dribbles the first things that entres his head and then repeats them till he gets bored any sporting contest would have beens stopped months ago.
Trump seems to be conceding defeat, he's now saying that the results will be invalid because of all the fraud; illegal immigrants, and dead people all apparently voting against him, orchestrated by the [s]illuminati/lizards[/s] Clinton and the MSM.
Did I see that his son is looking to set up a new Trumpet TV channel to cash in on the [s]vitriol[/s] support he has whipped up?
[url= http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/?ex_cid=rrpromo ]yeah his numbers aren't looking great at the moment[/url]
as pointed out here and evident in the last election and referendum
no one wants admit to supporting racists/xenophobes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2016-37650994
as pointed out here and evident in the last election and referendum
i think if the polls were "relatively" static that might be the case but don't think we ever had these kind of trends in the EU & GE polling.
Trump's been on the "it's rigged" line since day 1 pretty much, it's slash and burn tactics- win the game or throw the whole thing off the board. As Roger Stone says:
“He needs to say for example, today would be a perfect example: ‘I am leading in Florida. The polls all show it. If I lose Florida, we will know that there’s voter fraud. If there’s voter fraud, this election will be illegitimate, the election of the winner will be illegitimate, we will have a constitutional crisis, widespread civil disobedience, and the government will no longer be the government.’
If you can’t have an honest election, nothing else counts. I think he’s gotta put them on notice that their inauguration will be a rhetorical, and when I mean civil disobedience, not violence, but it will be a bloodbath. The government will be shut down if they attempt to steal this and swear Hillary in. No, we will not stand for it. We will not stand for it."
Hands up anyone who wants to argue this isn't batshit mental. And in Trump's core support we're seeing the exact mindset required to turn this incitement into action. "Maybe the second amendment guys, I dunno"
kimbers - Memberas pointed out here and evident in the last election and referendum
no one wants admit to supporting racists/xenophobes
The shy tory thing really is remarkable though when you stop and think about it- our last general election was literally swung by people so confident and proud of their choice that, when asked by a complete stranger or an internet site who they voted for, they couldn't bring themselves to admit to it.
Hmm, you have to wonder if the problem is really with them or people like yourself who try and bully them into changing their mind NW
Edit due to your edit:
On the 'rigged' issue, you might be on stronger ground if the democrats hadn't spent years claiming that Florida was rigged when GWB won in 2000
Do you think they're worried that if they say "I voted Tory", the pollster will tell them off? 😆 Yes, obviously the problem isn't with them, it's the bullying poll website with its intimidating, anonymous boxes.
So, the Bush administration had a private email server, run by the Republican party, and which managed to "lose" 22 million emails:
http://europe.newsweek.com/george-w-bush-white-house-lost-22-million-emails-497373?rm=eu
They're all at it. But some are more at it than others.
On the 'rigged' issue, you might be on stronger ground if the democrats hadn't spent years claiming that Florida was rigged when GWB won in 2000
I think it was proven that the voting process in Florida was at the very least quite suspect and given there were less than 700 votes between Bush and Gore (out of almost 6 million cast) it wouldn't take much more than one or two dodgy people to make the difference. Ultimately, Bush got in a second time with a proper (although slim) majority anyway so the US got the president it deserved.
Unfortunately for The Donald, Hillary has a slim lead in Florida according to the polls so it'll be a strange "theft" where if the person ahead in the polls wins the state.
Unfortunately for The Donald, Hillary has a slim lead in Florida according to the polls so it'll be a strange "theft" where if the person ahead in the polls wins the state.
The polls themselves are also rigged by the biased media. SAD!
Wasn't Florida the 'hanging chads' debacle? Since then chad has been one of my favourite useless words.
There was a good programme on R4 yesterday morning where one contributor said that as an non American he was struggling to understand how Trump could appeal to anyone, but he had lived in the states long enough to be aware that there was such a cultural divide between european 'normal' and American 'normal' that whilst beyond comprehension he appreciated that it was one of those thing he just had to accept that he would never understand and get on with life. Seems about right.
There was a good programme on R4 yesterday morning where one contributor said that as an non American he was struggling to understand how Trump could appeal to anyone, but he had lived in the states long enough to be aware that there was such a cultural divide between european 'normal' and American 'normal' that whilst beyond comprehension he appreciated that it was one of those thing he just had to accept that he would never understand and get on with life
It was Paxman I think - and he also added, that like Brexit, many of the [s]weirdos[/s] American [s]rednecks[/s] [s]normal[/s] working class have had enough and may vote for ANYTHING and ANYONE in a desperate vote for change of any kind.
The polls themselves are also rigged by the biased media
You mean the same polls that showed conclusively that there was no chance whatsoever that Donald could ever win the republican candidacy.
The only good side to all this is when America implodes under president trump we can nip over and reclaim it with not much more than some pointy sticks and strong language.
ninfan - MemberOn the 'rigged' issue, you might be on stronger ground if the democrats hadn't spent years claiming that Florida was rigged when GWB won in 2000
Here's the thing... The democrats waited til after the election, and then raised concerns. And whether you think that the Florida decision was right or wrong, I think it's hard to argue that there weren't legitimate grounds for doubt.
Trump is declaring that the election was fixed, before it happens, and his evidence is "because I'm not winning". It's not really the same thing.
Trump is declaring that the election was fixed, before it happens, and his evidence is "because I'm not winning". It's not really the same thing.
[img] http://jeffreyhill.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341d417153ef01b8d19fd5a8970c-800wi [/img]
i think trumps it was fixed and arguing against the media is for him to set up his own media that [s]sells[/s] tells the truth to the followers
Clearly there is no equivalence between this and hanging chads/Florida - if you need further proof see who is arguing there is.
That LA Times piece suggests Trump ahead in the popular vote the whole time, which goes against all other evidence.
Up now. He makes some fair points about the unfolding disaster in Syria and Iraq.
He makes some fair points about the unfolding disaster in Syria and Iraq.
Are we watching the same debate? He's throwing poo like an angry monkey with perfect 20/20 eyesight and no concept of foreign affairs.
Just over hear in the old U S of A having listened to the debate.
The reaction immediately afterwards in the commentaries that they can't believe that Trump didn't say "I'll accept the result if I lose". It's such a naive political mistake - and I'm 100% sure he will have been prepped on the question - nobody here can quite believe that he said it!
It just shows what a bizarre deluded self obsessive he is.
The CNN discussion is all about whether Trump did badly or really really badly.
He was awful, gimlet eyed spitting nasty words. Mainly at random. Hillary looked much nicer than I expected. She is articulate, well organised and disciplined.
I rarely watch TV but heard a previous debate and Trump's voice made my skin crawl. It's very strange that he has the nomination and some articulate defenders.
Even Fox News over here is leading with the headline that The Donald didn't say he accept defeat if he lost. I bet there was a room somewhere full of Trump back room advisors banging there heads against walls 🙂
I think that probably went Trump's way. Clinton should have stayed away from the personal digs. 🙄
Also I think that he should draw attention to any wrongdoing in the powers that be, especially in the rigging of the election. The mind controlling drugs that they put in the water should also be addressed as should alien life.
So if he loses and doesn't accept the result what's he going to do? Claim squatters rights in the White House? In his defence though I can't believe these claims that he's abused women, I mean, he doesn't even look Mexican.
Clinton should have stayed away from the personal digs
Yes, I do wonder how you come back from this bitchfest and how the winning candidate ever restores a presidential persona so they can do the actual job. Clearly that is well beyond what Trump will ever be capable of but Clinton will look pretty grubby (than she already was) coming out of this.
I think that probably went Trump's way.
Most polls in the US so far disagree with you. They seem to think he was lost and had no real enthusiasm. Got to wonder if he's already decided the race is over but doesn't want to back out at this late stage and so is just going through the motions.
Maybe you need to read CaptainS's post again slowly, and see where his tongue is!
A US mayor has likened Trumps foreign policy to a teenagers book report, when they haven't read the book, leading to viral Twitter #Trumpbookreports
It was the best of times. The best! Was it the worst of times? WRONG! It was the best. I have hotels in those two cities!
Those poor heights. They were wuthering. Wuthering so bad. Bigly wuthering. I'll make them great again. #TrumpBookReport
Those poor heights. They were wuthering. Wuthering so bad. Bigly wuthering. I'll make them great again. #TrumpBookReport
😆
Clearly I'm about to waste today searching for #TrumpBookReport
...reading the first link it appears it was started because Wallace actually fact checked Trump
when asked by a complete stranger or an internet site who they voted for, they couldn't bring themselves to admit to it
In the last general election folk really didn't want to vote for Conservative, but the thought of Ed Millibean in No. 10 was a step too far.
Hillary is hated in the US, but the thought of Prez Trump scares normal people. Rightly.
Nobody GAS about pollsters, it's who is actually running the country at the end that matters, that's why the results are useless.
I'm sure it's wrong that Trump performs better in the SNL skits than he does in real life.
I keep trying to think why this is so polarised, why so many folk hate Clinton and how Trump can have so much support. I thought the comparison with a UK election that was between Mandelson and Farage sort of sums it up.
A UK election between Cherie and Katy Hopkins might be a better analogy!
Aracer - thanks for that - nightmares tonight for me but you are right
aracer - MemberA UK election between Cherie and Katy Hopkins might be a better analogy!
Chewkw and Jambalaya
Chewkw and Jambalaya
Nooooooooooooo!
i havn't been following this thread but I'm interested to know if any STWers actually support Trump?
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this is very good to follow for the maths geeks as well as the data representation fans. Or just plain Crayola enthusiasts.
http://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2016-election-forecast/#scenarios
Sandwich - Member
Nooooooooooooo!Northwind - Member
Chewkw and Jambalaya
Hip! Hip! 😆
franksinatra - Member
i havn't been following this thread but I'm interested to know if any STWers actually support Trump?
I do support him.
Coz I dislike the other candidate.
Chewkw, I think remember asking you to name one positive thing about Trump rather than negative things about Clinton, presumably that's coming along well.
And to sum up...
[img] 
[/img]
Maybe chewkw is a golfer.
Maybe chewkw is a golfer.
Do you suspect he has a handicap?
Yes. Being a Trump supporter for one.