[Closed] Does anyone not wear a poppy, and why?

I did this year, but admit that I have been lazy or forgotten in the past. Really up to the individual as stated by most people here. Should not be ostricised one way or the other.
A friend said that when on a night out during the week was verbally abused and spat on by some idiot for wearing one though. I think the guy was drunk.

So you don't like Poppy's cause lots of people are promoting them?

Straw man much?

why would i wear a poppy?

WW1 was hell as was WW2, things don't get better.

But a question, why did the soldiers die in the trenches of WW1, was it to improve their conditions, to protect their vote???

If you didn't know most soldiers dieing could not vote and it was only the reforms of 1918 that gave most men the vote, but only because so many were disenfranchised by serving in the forces, most certainly not all, and certainly not women.
So who were the soldiers actually protecting and from whom?

Maybe they died to benefit the same group who have ruled the UK for centuries in one form or other?

As for WW2, why did it happen? Look in part at WW1 and Treaty of Versailles.

I can perfectly well remember those who died without having to prove anything to anyone, without having to associate myself with the charade that is the cenotaph, the politicians speeches.

The Daily Mail hijacked it and turned it into hero worship, so no. It's become like some sort of national mythology cult of the type Kershaw describes in "The Hitler Myth".

I remember in my own way, namely by having piles of books that account the experiences of the people that served (eg I'm reading "Tumult in The Clouds" and James Jones "The Thin Red Line" right now)

If my uncles (who were both snipers), my grandfather who fought at Monte Casino and my grandfather who served in the RFC were alive they'd all be disgusted by it.

My grandad stopped wearing it- he reckoned that as soon as people started feeling like they had to wear it, it became completely meaningless.

I donate and buy a poppy. Over the past 2 weeks or so I've sometimes forgotten to wear it when I've left the house. No biggie.

It's up to the individual if they want to wear a poppy or not, just as its up to the individual to decide how or what they remember. No problems either way.

I've been the recipient of some narky comments such as "why you f*&%ing wearing that?", just as I've heard voices disapproving of "youth not showing respect by wearing a poppy". I dislike these people. A lot.

Remembrance Day has become more about whether you wear a poppy often enough or not, and complaining about Sandra from Accounts who tapped her keyboard too loudly during the 2 minutes silence than about actually remembering.
People care too much about what other people do.

related to this, just seen a story on channel 4 news about a 99 year old serviceman who passed away with no living relations or friends. the funeral director appealed for people to attend his funeral, which found its way onto facebook and 100s of people turned up. all well and good, but why not go and see him when he was alive? or someone else who's in a nursing home now? the world is full of old people, ex soldiers, dying in nursing homes...

I don't. Cos the ones who [i]should[/i] remember, don't.

Versailles didn't cause WWII: Imperialism and expansionism were part of the manifesto of the Prussian state as created by Bismark; basically the Prussians were doing in Europe what Britain, France and Belgium were doing in Africa etc.
I think the comment about the ordinary man not having the vote is very pertinent: The rank and file of WWI was much less surprised about being asked to climb out of the trenches to almost certain death; after all that is how wars had always been fought till then. The scale of the carnage was in proportion to that of Napoleonic battles (even in regards to the effect on the European populations in general).
The big difference in Britain was that there was conscription for the first time and how through the media, people here were so much more aware of the carnage.
I think the comments about religion could be seen from a different angle: I know several Ministers who are quite appalled that their Sunday Service turns into the Edinburgh Military Tattoo for the day.

Where were you lot yesterday when I dared to suggest silence was pointless? I wear a poppy as it donates money to people who need and deserve it. Still boils my piss when people think just because they have been quiet they have done something when they have done nothing. Like that idiot defence sec in Helmand yesterday laying wreaths and being quiet in public whilst cutting funding and putting lives at risk in private or making people redundant and not helping the old and vulnerable many of who sacrificed so much. Too many people do nothing but think they have done something.

The hilarious thing is that some of the most popular comments on The Daily Mail today, are about how bad todays "youff" are because 13 year olds are not willing to go over the top into withering machine gun fire in a war caused by the political elites. They're actually worshiping a child soldier, pedos are bad - child soldiers are good apparently. For king and country and all that, I was half expecting to see along side the article "Why ethnic cleansing is good for London, our brave boys did it in Kenya".

The Flynn effect seems to have gone into reverse.

@aa

To paraprase; forget the remembrance, feed the war machine. Nice.

I donated, just haven't worn the poppy apart from at a Remembrance Service yesterday.

The Legion does a colossal amount of good for ex-servicemen, whether injured or not. But I'm from a Forces/Merchant Navy family, probably part of the first generation to have not served on active duty

agree with supporting those in need.

politicians,dictators whatever should go fight their own battles
and the gun sellers should find something useful to do.

I donated to War Child. I think it was that Legion photo of the kids in the "Future Soldier" t-shirts that pushed me down that path this year.

I don't think remberance glorifies war. It's just about taking a moment for people who died due to decisions made by politicians which WE elected.
Regarding the recent conflicts, I don't for a second think that anyone who voted for Blair thought he'd send us into two wars, but he did and it was the british electorate who empowered him to do so. It may have pissed some of the public off, but at least we're not maimed, mentally scarred or dead as many of our military and countless civilians are. It's not a comfortable truth but what I'm trying to say is that indirectly, we are not blameless.

I donated to War Child.

It's just about taking a moment for people who died due to decisions made by politicians which WE elected.

You don't think the Daily Mail is using remembrance to glorify war?

Who sent professional soldiers to war without listening to the general public's opposition to the war in Iraq? Were we given a choice to go or not to go?

No, it's always the decision of the political elites who have only their interests in mind - regardless of who we vote for they will always take us to war if it's within their own narrow interests. It's been that way since the dawn of time.

You don't think the Daily Mail is using remembrance to glorify war?

anagallis_arvensis - Member

Where were you lot yesterday when I dared to suggest silence was pointless? I wear a poppy as it donates money to people who need and deserve it. Still boils my piss when people think just because they have been quiet they have done something when they have done nothing.

We told you what the silence represented, and why people wanted to take part yesterday.

You obviously couldn't be bothered to try and understand any of the responses.

This thread is really the very point of remembrance day for me talking about the tragedy and waste and challenging the point of war hopefully with a view to ensuring we do our best to not go down the world war path again.

I did not wear a poppy but did observe the two minute silence with a Thi arsonist and interpreter.

I couldn't tell you what the mail does/writes. I don't read it. Just because they write it, doesn't make it so.

I just read it to gauge what the enemy is up to. Seeing as it's one of the most widely circulated papers in the country, it's opinions and the opinions of it's viewers are very useful.

I wasn't having a dig! Or accusing you of being a mail reader!

It's ok Wrecker I didn't take it as a dig, I like you and forces personnel as a whole - I was just thinking allowed. One thing that bugs me is that everyone I know who was/is in did it for every other reason other than patriotism, then when I see Cameron et al talking about them as if for example they weren't sink estate kids who once badly needed a job but instead heroes who joined up to fight for the nation... I start getting wound up. No honesty.

I observed two minutes silence anyway.

Versailles didn't cause WWII: Imperialism and expansionism were part of the manifesto of the Prussian state as created by Bismark; basically the Prussians were doing in Europe what Britain, France and Belgium were doing in Africa etc.

Not trying to start an argument, not the time or place, Versailes IMO was a catalyst, the reparations it demanded, the wehrmarcht. the rise of the Nazi party. I am not saying it caused WW2, nothing is ever that simple, it just didn't help and led to an environment where the NAZI party could rise.

If the mainstream doesn't serve the people, then the people look elsewhere. It has happened so many times. I suspect it will happen many more times too!

I donate each year but do not recall a time I wore the poppy.

I was at Kingston Bridge yesterday at 11am, paying my respects at the end of a ride and was suprised at how many people just got on with their lives, didn't stop, turn off their engines, etc whilst the police had stopped all the traffic etc.

You may not have gone out of your way to be there, neither did I, but for FFS stop and take 2 mins out of your life, for just a moments reflection.

My father fought in the 2nd world war, it changed him from a boy brought up as firm Methodist to a man with no time for god or the church, such was the horror he witnessed. This was the first year since the end of the war due to ill health he could not make it to his local cenotaph, I know that this upset him deeply.

After the appalling pr stunt at the Albert hall then I will not be giving the British legion another penny. I felt really sorry for the little girl who was stitched up with her dad coming home early. He was actually flown in for 48 hours just for that 2 minutes and then flown back to his deployment

Motivated by your post I was just reading about the 'Festival of Remembrance' and the stunt with one of the 'Poppy Girls'. The whole thing looks like a tacky yet terrifying militaristic state propaganda exercise the like of which Kim Jong Il would have been proud to preside over. 😕

i don't wear one--for many of the reasons others have stated, but mainly as a result of my grandad, who served in the last world war, he refused to wear any of his medals etc, to him it had been hi jacked by the state to legitimise militarism

I think the blanket appearance of poppies on tv talking heads from late October onwards cheapens and dilutes the whole thing...it has the air of Milo Minderbinders Great Loyalty Oath Crusade about. Far more powerful atribute just for it too appear on lapels on the 11th or Remembrance Sunday.

This isn't a criticism of British Legion by the way - far from it they force no one to wear one...but the tv companies seem to insist people do.

I was at a location today which wasn't a military one, but with an organisation that worked hard during the war and saved a lot of lives...as they do today. We stopped at 11 for a few quiet moments to think and remember...it was quiet outside too. It was fitting and powerful.

the men and women who consciously gave of themselves in the two world wars

There is some ludicrous re-engineering of history going on here to make it look like WW1 and WW2 were wars for religious and political freedoms. They weren't, and the Malayan insurgency, the Greek civil war, the Mau Mau Uprising, the Aden Emergency, and the Korean War weren't either.

"We will remember them (but not what they were doing or why)", apparently.

To be fair konabunny, whilst WW2 was totally avoidable I still think it can be described as a just war. We were fighting for political freedoms in that war and arguing otherwise is tantamount to a rather bad case of revisionism.

Although the reasons as to why we were fighting the Pacific War are certainly more blurred and much more to do with imperial interests as opposed to the survival of the nation and it's European allies.

There is some ludicrous re-engineering of history going on here to make it look like WW1 and WW2 were wars for religious and political freedoms.

My wife's home town had a population of 60000 Jews in 1939. By 1945, 200 were left alive.

That's not why the war was fought, though - the concentration camps weren't known of by most people in the UK - and didn't even exist at the start of the war.

Sorry, that's wrong.

The Nazis built the first of their concentration camps in the early thirties.

I didn't wear a poppy. I bought one for my 3yr old son.

Why don't I wear one? Its like Britishness, you don't need to communicate it. Its there. If I go to Brugges in a few weeks I will visit Ypres again and probably have a wee cry again when I hear the names being read out on a never ending track. 🙂

The same as being of Christian faith. I don't go to Church but I believe.

I don't wear a poppy, However I always donate when I see a poppy seller, and will always encourage my kids to do the same.
We always take the time to explain to our kids what it is all about, and my Daughter laid a wreath at our Village war memorial on Sunday on behalf of the Sunday School kids.

I can't really explain why I don't wear one - I guess I don't feel the need to advertise my support?

Every year I always find it difficult to place my thoughts on this time of year. When I was younger only really thought that Remembrance Sunday was to remember the fallen and lost of WWI and WWII. Those wars have shaped what we live in far more than any other 'war' we (as in Great Britain) have been involved in and the loss of those wars would have surely changed how we are living today. That's what I personally choose to remember. I have worn a poppy some years, just for a day or two, and I remember those fallen much more when I spend time reading or watching programs about those wars.

However, being from Belfast I have read a few articles about Irelands involvement and the with in being at the time of the Easter Rising. There still seems to be a lot of hatred I guess, expressed in the opinions of people in regards to the Irish involvement in the Great War. I do find it slightly upsetting that people believe the British Empire 'forced' the Irish to go to war. Many, not all, Irish opinions seems to say that they had no other choice.

There is some ludicrous re-engineering of history going on here to make it look like WW1 and WW2 were wars for religious and political freedoms.

My wife's home town had a population of 60000 Jews in 1939. By 1945, 200 were left alive.

The idea that we fought WWII to save the Jews is quite ridiculous - and seems to have become quite prevalent.

I used to wear one on my coat before I started to commute by bike, I don't fancy sticking pins in my Gore-Tex bike jacket! I also used to wear one on my school jumper. I do however wear one on Remembrance Sunday whilst taking part in the parade.

Cheers,
Jamie

grum - Member

The idea that we fought WWII to save the Jews is quite ridiculous - and seems to have become quite prevalent.

Could you provide some examples?

Real people fought and were killed protecting and serving the interests of the nation and moral principle. Warfare is a desperately unfortunate condition, but one that happens all too frequently when national politics become aggressive. It is a truly scary business that requires courage to endure. Regardless of how people became soldiers, or whether you agree with the principles or national-interests involved in any particular conflict, I respect a soldier's courage and sacrifice.

[i]Direct your anger at politicians throughout our history who have sent brave warriors into conflicts for unsound reasons.[/i]

I'm just not inclined to pin a hole in my GoreTex jacket.

I already did:

There is some ludicrous re-engineering of history going on here to make it look like WW1 and WW2 were wars for religious and political freedoms.

My wife's home town had a population of 60000 Jews in 1939. By 1945, 200 were left alive.

See also:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/endeavour-press/rewriting-history-wwii-an_b_2091449.html

Admittedly he doesn't provide any evidence but it's something I've noticed too.

And this is a bit misleading:

Sorry, that's wrong.

The Nazis built the first of their concentration camps in the early thirties.

Concentration camps yes (think we invented them first) but I don't think the existence of 'death camps' where people were systematically executed was known about by most people until very near the end of the war or afterwards.

I include the Polish as 'we' since they fought on the same side. Was the persecution pre-war not a major concern? Does this not point to religious freedom being a factor in the war? Obviously the next example would be the invasion of Poland. Does that not point to Political Freedom being a factor in the war? Even if obviously we were concerned about our own rather than that of the Polish people.

When you say "gave of themselves", do you mean "mostly conscripted at pain of arrest and imprisonment?".

Edit - html formatting fail removed

Was the persecution pre-war not a major concern?

Was it?

Not for the Daily Mail in 1930.

[img] [/img]

And I know a few Poles that would have some choice words to say about the fight for political freedom in WWII - given that we abandoned them to the Soviet Union immediately afterwards.

Here's Churchill in 1940:

In his famous "Blood, Sweat and Tears" speech, the great British wartime leader said that unless Germany was defeated, there would be "no survival for the British empire, no survival for all that the British empire has stood for..." A few weeks later, in his "Finest Hour" address, Churchill said: "Upon this battle depends the survival of Christian civilization. Upon it depends our own British life and the long continuity of our institutions and our Empire."

According to him it seems to have been mostly about protecting the Empire and Christian Civilization.

I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't have fought the Nazis, obviously - but we have a lot of myths that have built up around WWII that are quite embedded in our national consciousness. Interesting article here:

http://www.ihr.org/news/weber_ww2_may08.html

My wife's home town had a population of 60000 Jews in 1939. By 1945, 200 were left alive.

I include the Polish as 'we' since they fought on the same side.

BBC R4 today at 12:00 you and yours

Is RS losing its true meaning?

10m time PSA

If WW2 was about saving the Jews, it seems weird that UK would have allied itself with one of the most xenophobic anti-Semitic regimes on earth in order to do it...

...and then suggesting that the Poles fought WW2 to save the Jews is just ludicrous.

I don't think that HAS been suggested, has it?

chrismac that stunt is disgusting more so if dad really is only on 2 day leave not home early. So empty too on officer on anti piracy in the Seychelles why not a squaddie from operations in Afghanistan.

Yes.

why not a squaddie from operations in Afghanistan

I've had a look through and I can't see it.

There is some ludicrous re-engineering of history going on here to make it look like WW1 and WW2 were wars for religious and political freedoms.

My wife's home town had a population of 60000 Jews in 1939. By 1945, 200 were left alive.

Which, if Richpenny wasn't suggesting a link, seems a bit of a disjointed post.

Obviously I dunno what RP was saying either but a post that says
"[i]Some people suggest ww2 was fought coz of religion/political freedom[/i]
Well a lot of religious people died"
is either a suggested link or 2 random bits of info tagged together.
Dunno, just a suggestion, grum (and a couple of others) seemed to think so too.

grum - Member

There is some ludicrous re-engineering of history going on here to make it look like WW1 and WW2 were wars for religious and political freedoms.

My wife's home town had a population of 60000 Jews in 1939. By 1945, 200 were left alive.

The idea that we fought WWII to save the Jews is quite ridiculous - and seems to have become quite prevalent.

Heh! Me too. 🙂

grum - Member

I already did:

No you didn't.
No one on here has suggested that we fought WWII to save the Jews.

Please provide more evidence that this view is 'quite prevalent'.
I've certainly never, ever heard anyone suggest we did.
And I've never encountered a 'holocaust centric' teaching model of WW2 either.

As to concentration camps, Ben said that the Nazi regime did not have them before WW2.
He was wrong, they did, from the early 30's onward.
What's misleading about that?

There's plenty of opinion on this thread - all of it interesting and valid.

But at least can we get the facts right?

Some interesting views. I thought this 91 year old veteran's views were valid and well worth a read:

In summary:

"I will no longer allow my obligation as a veteran to remember those who died in the great wars to be co-opted by current or former politicians to justify our folly in Iraq, our morally dubious war on terror and our elimination of one's right to privacy".

Full article:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/poppy-last-time-remembrance-harry-leslie-smith

Certainly WWI and WWII were fought for very different reasons to the current wars we are in now.

As a side question, how should we have handled the action against the 7/7 bombings, 9/11 etc, this modern war on terror?

This is the point I brought up with my partner and friends. No-one gave me a valid answer other than 'they killed people in our country'. A simplistic view yes, but not the right one?

I don't for exactly the same reasons previous poster's have mentioned. Mainly, that I don't need to be told when or how to remember. I was born in the 70's anyway so I don't remember either of the world wars. Though I have read a lot about them. I do think a lot about all the poor souls who've died in the recent oil-wars.

And also, I don't wear badges.

Also: Interesting point about conscripts and pro-soldiers.

Honour, pride, nation, glory - words frequently used in propaganda. Today we have 'terrorism'. The blurred meaning of these words by our leaders is quite scary when you think about it. The very idea of an ongoing 'war on terror' would be daft, funny even if it weren't for the horrible reality.

As to concentration camps, Ben said that the Nazi regime did not have them before WW2.
He was wrong, they did, from the early 30's onward.

I was, I should have said extermination camps.

Harry Smith makes very valid points even if some of the detail was contradicted by the Historian on R4 at lunchtime. I agree with him that war has been overly glorified and sanitised but disagree on the political accusation.

Why? It's obvious that there has been some political posturing etc. But look here at this thread. There are lots of feelings and strong sentiments that are expressed here [i]that are themselves political[/i] eg, I don't wear a poppy (now) because I object to......

Smith makes his own political points as well. And isn't that the real point? We are free to make those points, to politicise them [i]if we want to[/i] and to defend our views and perspectives [i]as we see fit.[/i] Some of this is due to those who fought and for that we should be grateful and remember them [i]in whichever way we see fit.[/i] IMO of course.

Grum, I am not sure that an article from the Daily Mail in 1930 and having a couple of racists as friends proves anything.

I am confident that the many thousands of Poles executed for helping Jews were in fact fighting for religious freedom. Not as an intellectual idea but to protect their friends and neighbours.

Maybe I am wrong, and the treatment of the Jews and political opponents of Nazism was never discussed in Parliament in the 1930's.

I am also confident that political freedom was a factor for everyone in Europe at the time, since their own was clearly at stake.

TV presenter gets racist and sexist abuse for not wearing a poppy: http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/13/charlene-white-itv-news-presenter-remembrance-day-poppy

As a side question, how should we have handled the action against the 7/7 bombings, 9/11 etc, this modern war on terror?

This is the point I brought up with my partner and friends. No-one gave me a valid answer other than 'they killed people in our country'. A simplistic view yes, but not the right one?

This I have never understood. A group of Egyptians led by a Saudi attack America; response is to attack Iraq?

It is often said that people have children to ensure they are remembered; the same is said of scientists and artists, who make their mark on the world, that they may be held in esteem after their passing.

By constantly remembering the exploits of people who in many instances were forced against their will by their country to fight, are we not perpetuating the glory of war?

Be interesting to see how many of the powerful elites are either direct shareholders, or in league with the arms industry, as there is still handsome profit to be made from the business of war...

By constantly remembering the exploits of people who in many instances were forced against their will by their country to fight, are we not perpetuating the glory of war?

I don't wear a poppy as I believe that the state that sends people to war should be wholly responsible for their post-war welfare, rather then hiving it off to charity.

stories like the ITV news reporter above and google being attacked for not having a big enough poppy on their website, puts me off wearing one tbh

not to mention that the last decade of wars seem to have benefited no one and killed millions of civilians and soldiers

It all seems to have become something for politicians and UKIP and the EDL and their sympathisers to bash the public round the head with

fwiw, I did put some money in the poppy appeal tub in the post office, but didnt take a poppy, though they were behind the glass

Found the article grum linked to very provoking.
> http://www.ihr.org/news/weber_ww2_may08.html
br />
However I noticed the Institute for Historical Review (the source) has a rather alarming affiliations if their wikipedia entry is anything to go by:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Review

st colin - Member
As a side question, how should we have handled the action against the 7/7 bombings, 9/11 etc, this modern war on terror?

7/7 happened after we invaded afgahnistan and iraq

infact each of those bombers were recruited, converted and motivated by those wars , if we hadnt started blowing those places up they probably wouldnt have killed all those people on the tube!

Found the article grum linked to very provoking.
http://www.ihr.org/news/weber_ww2_may08.html

This I have never understood. A group of Egyptians led by a Saudi attack America; response is to attack Iraq?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/10445723/Afghanistan-opium-poppy-cultivation-at-record-high.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-24919056

Makes you proud to be British.

No you didn't.
No one on here has suggested that we fought WWII to save the Jews.

Well, they've suggested that religious freedom for the Jews was one of the primary motivations for going to war. Which it wasn't.

Here was Churchill on anti-semitism in an unpublished article from 1937:

"For it may be that, unwittingly, they are inviting persecution — that they have been partly responsible for the antagonism from which they suffer."

RichPenny WTF:

Grum, I am not sure that an article from the Daily Mail in 1930 and having a couple of racists as friends proves anything.

Really, how on earth have you come up with the claim that I have a couple of 'racists as friends'? Because I mentioned that I know some Poles who aren't very happy about what happened to their country in WWII?

Given that WWII apparently started to protect Polish sovereignty, and Poles fought alongside our army against Hitler - wouldn't you be a bit pissed off if your country was then abandoned to Soviet control for the next 40 years (while we celebrate our noble victory for freedom)?

Found the article grum linked to very provoking.
> http://www.ihr.org/news/weber_ww2_may08.html
/p>

However I noticed the Institute for Historical Review (the source) has a rather alarming affiliations if their wikipedia entry is anything to go by:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Review

Yeah I must admit I didn't look at the background of the website. Still an interesting article though.

We do seem to have re-written history to make it sound like everyone was always firmly on the side of the Jews vs evil Hitler. Actually there was a fair amount of admiration for Hitler in the 1930s, and anti-semitism was rife.

Anyone would think the money for your poppy goes straight to the EDL the way you lot are carrying on.
It goes to the British legion who do a lot to help families of soldiers killed in action and veterans, they help pick up the pieces when the army/government/local authorities do not.
Don't like the symbolism/media spin? Put the money in the pot but don't wear the poppy then.

Hear, hear, Mr Smith! Well put.

But MrS, you are missing the point about making political capital out of a simple mark of remembrance - just look above!! 😉

(but +1 to you and flashy)

Yes, because it's important that we don't question or debate when we feel uncomfortable about promoting militarism and jingoism.

It goes to the British legion who do a lot to help families of soldiers killed in action and veterans, they help pick up the pieces when the army/government/local authorities do not.

Well, the government should support the armed forces and their families properly - maybe we need to pay more tax to allow them to do so? But those people did choose to enter the military - there's an awful lot of victims of the conflicts they have taken part in that didn't choose to get involved, and that get virtually no support/help whatsoever.