[Closed] doctors on strike

Indeed they do, that's why they committed to spend an extra £8bn a year vs the Labour pledge of just £2bn.

How much they love it and how much they want to chip away at it with sniping and changes [ see also BBC for this approach] is open to debate - well not by loyal supporters like you but the rest of us

That'll be why they're trying to privatise it, then - out of love.

Yet the person mainly responsible for actually doing so remains Andy 'mid staffs' Burnham...

Any view on why he signed a document that proposed the removal of the NHS?

I see you're making stuff up again, since we've already done the 'one of many co-authors of a position paper' thing, but if I was seeking to excuse him, I would suggest that 'maybe he didn't read it before signing it' 😆

Fair point as to my wording but the point remains about chipping away and very few [ loyal tories and trolls aside] want to argue that the Tories love the socialist health care in their hearts

More lies and half-truths twisted to suit the agenda:

[img] [/img]

The elective births and c-sections are all done Monday-Friday and these are relatively safe.
So that skews the figures to make the weekdays appear "safer". If you adjust for that then there is no difference in mortality.

As 'just' a mental health nurse by trade, even I knew from my first year of training lord knows how many years ago that the complications and early warning signs leading to stillbirth often occur (and could/should) be detectable several days before birth. Meaning that 'all those' stillbirths at the weekend might be equaly or probably more likely down to mistakes and failings that happened on tuesday or wednesday.

And then with reference to this latest nonsense story, the head of the royal college of obstetricians came on radio four the day before yesterday and said just the same thing 8)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-30207608?SThisFB - Another shining example of Hunt's awesomeness

The Ultrasound Kit that is used is portable (so not fixed)

I know the small portable one used for really superficial guidance like lines/nerve blocks and such costs about 4 to 6k. It's nowhere near good enough for diagnostic or imaging deeper than a few cms.

A full on diagnostic machine costs upwards of 15k, possibly more if it's for specialised uses.

Strike is called off
https://communities.bma.org.uk/junior_doctors_industrial_action/b/junior_doctors_ia/archive/2015/11/30/industrial-action-suspended-return-to-39-genuine-negotiations-39

"temporarily suspended"

Postponed rather than called off. BMA have an extension of another 28 days (until 13 Jan) to use the mandate to strike if negotiations don't continue to make progress. Government have lifted the threat of imposing a new contract within that timeframe (ie whilst negotiations are still ongoing).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34965603 another defeat for the conservatives, they lost again

Well at least one Sun "journalist" will be upset by that.

[img] [/img]

@Jeremy_Hunt tweeted:

Victory for common sense. Strike shouldn't have been called w/o talking to govt first but great for 7 day services

-- https://mobile.twitter.com/Jeremy_Hunt/status/671423653402275843

Pity sake. He really doesn't get it does he?

I can't post an appropriate response to that here, but Dr Rant's feelings sum it up very eloquently:

😀

What a complete prat. What's more worrying is that Cameron doesn't even appear interested in either this idiot in charge, or what could have potentially happened tomorrow.

Edit: Sorry was in the middle of posting when posted above 🙂

[img] [/img]

He's clearly taking the piss.

It's a parody account. It must be...

His statement to Parliament is equally laughable. He does appear to be operating in a complete alternate universe:
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/statement-on-junior-doctors-contract

That tweet's a new low for him, which considering how low he already was, is impressive.

I've been attributing everything to malice and the desire to cause damage but this one actually reminds me of Jim Murphy somehow- when it became obvious towards the end that he'd lost all connection with reality but he still had party faithful and reporters hanging around him telling him how everything was going to be fine. When you stopped laughing at him and just started hoping someone would help him. It somehow doesn't [i]feel[/i] like lying, more like fantasy

this idiot in charge

I don't know why some people dismiss politicians they don't agree with as idiots. Hunt, Cameron, Osborne, etc, are not idiots - they are doing stuff which Thatcher won't have dreamt of doing, and all the while convincing a sizable chunk of the electorate that they are moderate one nation Tories.

They are not stupid, they know exactly what they are doing.

They have just won a general election and if one was called tomorrow they would almost certainly win that one.

If you really want to point a finger at stupidity then I suggest you look at the Christmas voting turkeys which the Tories rely on so much.

It's a parody account. It must be...

Was my first thought, but if it is then it has probably failed in its role as parody because it's just sadly too believable! 👿

I don't know why some people dismiss politicians they don't agree with as idiots. Hunt, Cameron, Osborne, etc, are not idiots - they are doing stuff which Thatcher won't have dreamt of doing, and all the while convincing a sizable chunk of the electorate that they are moderate one nation Tories.

It's not the fact that I disagree with his policies/ideals. If he stood up and said what he thought (that he sees the only future for the NHS to be at least partial if not compete privatisation) then I'd actually have more respect and faith in him.

It's his consistent undermining of public perception in the medical profession with statements like the above that leaves me with no confidence in him.

ecampbell - are you just reading into it what you want to read into it though?

You seem very certain that he has a secret agenda to privatise everything so don't you think that the Tories would be cracking on with that now unencumbered by a coalition with the Lib Dems if that's what they really intended.

Despite what the rabid left would have us believe - and they've been telling us for close to 40 years that the Tories want to dismantle the NHS the facts of the matter are that every Tory government has left office with NHS spending higher than when the started. It's also a fact that every Health minister (Labour and Conservative) has been subject to highly personalised attacks by the BMA.

And what say you to the inconvenient facts that private sector provision rose faster under the last Labour government than any government before or since?

Private sector activity has barely changed in the 6 years since Labour left office although it is fair to say that NHS trusts are still saddled with £80B of PFI loans and close to £2Bn of interest payments from when "anti privatisation" Andy Burnham was in charge.

As for the above tweet - most observers are saying today that the suspension of strike action is common sense - even if it will come too late for the many patients due to have elective surgery, many of whom will now have to spend weeks in pain due to their operations being rescheduled.

Apart from the BMA, very few members of the medical establishment backed strike action or the BMA's refusal to even meet with the DH Employers team since June this year.

just5minutes - Member

As for the above tweet - most observers are saying today that the suspension of strike action is common sense

Oh come on! Yes it is common sense to go to ATAS and to suspend the threat of imposing the new contract while negotiations are going. Nobody objects to that, it's just a shame it took the threat of strike action to get him to do it, and doubly a shame that he intentionally maximised disruption by leaving it til the last minute to make the announcement. But yes the outcome is sensible if not the route.

It's the other part. "Strike shouldn't have been called without talking to government first", which people are objecting to- because it's an enormous lie and he knows it. It's not a misrepresentation, or open to interpretation, it's just 100% untrue. Hands up everyone who thinks that's a good way for a minister to behave? OK, now hands up everyone who thinks this is a good basis for a sensible negotiation- "Before we start, let me publically remind you that I can't be trusted"

Apart from the BMA, very few members of the medical establishment backed strike action or the BMA's refusal to even meet with the DH Employers team since June this year.

🙄

This is simply total and utter BS. In 30 years in the business I cannot recall such total and utter unanimous support for action in the profession. Your statement casts doubt on your agenda and your credibility. I call Troll.

If JH had agreed to ACAS intervention before 5 days ago, and/or not threatened to impose a contract unilaterally, and/or agreed months ago to discuss more than 1 out of 23 points, the action would not have been happening. he has acted in bad faith and tried to demonise the Juniors all the way along, and the "Medical Establishment" is absolutely behind them.

You are absolutely right about the private sector involvement though. Private providers have shown very little interest recently apart from AQP providers of relatively small services, because there are not significant profits to be made. Look at Blue Circle and their saga...

I suspect the Conservatives would like much more private involvement, but it isn't going to happen within the current budgets, unless there is a wholesale move to private insurance.

As for the above tweet - most observers are saying today that the suspension of strike action is common sense

Yes... Jeremy Hunt's common sense.

even if it will come too late for the many patients due to have elective surgery, many of whom will now have to spend weeks in pain due to their operations being rescheduled.

Yes it's rather a shame that Mr Hunt only relented at the last possible hour, ensuring there was lots of disruption he could point a wagging public finger at without actually having the criticism of a strike to deal with.

But I'm sure he had his reasons.

Apart from the BMA, very few members of the medical establishment backed strike action or the BMA's refusal to even meet with the DH Employers team since June this year.

Erm... not from what I've seen... which has been support from pretty much every field, both at institutional and member level (despite alleged threats from the government to remove the Royal Charter from institutions that backed the BMA position).

not threatened to impose a contract unilaterally

[i]Apparently[/i] when he said he would impose the contract he didn't really mean during negotiations. Because no government would do that...

[url= http://s21.postimg.org/pdn3ig6qf/hunt_no_change.pn g" target="_blank">http://s21.postimg.org/pdn3ig6qf/hunt_no_change.pn g"/> [/img][/url]

Is this the political equivalent of the Edinburgh Defense?

Apart from the BMA, very few members of the medical establishment backed strike action or the BMA's refusal to even meet with the DH Employers team since June this year

The reason they refused to meet is Mr Hunt wouldnt discuss most of their grievances and he refused to back down on the statement that he would impose the contract anyway - not exactly discussing things in good faith is it ?
Straight after the vote the BMA offered to go to arbitration, Mr Hunt refused until the last minute.

The man is delusional

every Tory government has left office with NHS spending higher than when the started

Even then I wager its not true but your every post is some strange distorted tory spin that has gone as far as just be factually wrong TBH I am surprised folk bother to respond to your shite.

Apart from the BMA, very few members of the medical establishment backed strike action or the BMA's refusal to even meet with the DH Employers team since June this year

Nice attempt at spin. Got any evidence to back it up?

People who don't get there are other people having to work harder in shittier roles for longer hours than them Shocker!!

Priveledged arseholes

well, with evidence like that...

As opposed to idiots who would be happy with a pay cut, removal of maximum hours and safety elements when they have already lost an average of 14% since 2009 and carry 5 or 6 years of student debt, and earn less than people in jobs with less responsibility and training...

Epic logic fail. If it's that brilliant, you do it 🙄

You're right phil, unless you have the worst job in the world, you shouldn't ever complain about anything.

People who don't get there are other people having to work harder in shittier roles for longer hours than them Shocker!!

No matter what job you do phil I guarantee there is someone somewhere in the world doing a shittier job for less money.

[img] [/img]

That doesn't mean you're not allowed to complain if your employer tries to force contract changes that remove safe working limits on your hours and drop your pay, whilst pretending it does exactly the opposite.

How much do you think they pay the elephant doctor? I'll hazard the callout fee is more than some earn in a week

It's relevant though there's a head up an arse .

just5minutes - yes that's my interpretation, but based on the bigger picture it's the only conclusion I can draw.

You seem very certain that he has a secret agenda to privatise everything so don't you think that the Tories would be cracking on with that now unencumbered by a coalition with the Lib Dems if that's what they really intended.

They essentially are. The NHS is struggling financially. The population is living increasingly longer with chronic conditions, costing more. Better, newer, more high tech treatments are becoming increasingly prevalent, further increasing costs. The NHS is already struggling to deal with this, and its only going to get worse. The whole "7 day" debacle is going to spread things even thinner!! It's easy to sell to the electorate as improving their service - the reality is it'll make it worse.
Privatisation would be wildly unpopular with the electorate, they know this, so are resorting to subtler ways.

I'm not against privatisation. I believe that the quality of peoples healthcare should not be influenced by their wealth, and that clinical decision making should not be influenced by wanting to make profit. Whether this funding involves private providers/insurance or by government facilitated means doesn't bother me. (And yes, the use of private sector by NHS under labour want exactly cost efficient, I agree).

As for the above tweet - most observers are saying today that the suspension of strike action is common sense - even if it will come too late for the many patients due to have elective surgery, many of whom will now have to spend weeks in pain due to their operations being rescheduled.

Postponing the strike was the right thing to do. Why it took so long to agree to go to ACAS I don't know. The BMA offered it before the strike was called, the government refused. Take from that what you will.
In terms of disruption caused, yes it's a shame, but in the grand scheme of things it's minimal. Emergancy and urgent stuff will still get done, lives will not be in danger. The press were quoting 4000 cancelled. When you compare this to the number cancelled every week due to theatre delays, equipment availability and other issues, it's going to cause minimal delays.

Apart from the BMA, very few members of the medical establishment backed strike action or the BMA's refusal to even meet with the DH Employers team since June this year.

Sorry what? Pretty much the entire "medical establishment" has supported the decision. A few of the royal colleges have made ambiguous politically correct statements not criticising either side, but that's been as far "against" any of the establishments have come out with.

People who don't get there are other people having to work harder in shittier roles for longer hours than them Shocker!!

So you'll only be happy if everyone is working shitty roles for long hours for low pay? Is that what they call a race to the bottom?

If other people are being forced to work dangerously long hours in shitty jobs why don't they speak up? Don't resent doctors just because they have decent representation.

[b]Sorry what? Pretty much the entire "medical establishment" has supported the decision. A few of the royal colleges have made ambiguous politically correct statements not criticising either side, but that's been as far "against" any of the establishments have come out with.[/b]

The royal colleges etc, have supported the campaign by the JDs but not their decision to strike. It is possible to support the aim without supporting the method and the nuance is in what's not said rather than what is said. If you read what the MRCs have published they support individual Doctor's right to industrial action but do not seem to have given blanket support to the plan for a national strike.

What the MRCs have said is as follows:
[i]“The academy is urging both sides in the current dispute around junior doctors’ contracts to step back from the brink and re-enter negotiations in good faith so that an agreement can be reached. Failure to do so will have an adverse impact on the NHS and current and future patients.”[/i]

They don't seem to have said - "a national strike is a jolly good idea" or "we fully support it".

https://www.rcpe.ac.uk/media-statement/rcpe-continues-share-concerns-junior-doctors

This was the statement released on 6th November by the Royal College that I'm a member of (Royal College of the Physicians of Edinburgh), which seems to come down squarely on the side of junior doctors as I read it:

“We continue to share many of the concerns of junior doctors about the current proposals for the new contract in England. [b]The threat of imposition is adversely affecting morale, increasing pressure on staff who already work in a challenging environment, and creating an unsettling situation for patients[/b].

“As a Royal College we are not part of the contract negotiations, but we share the fears that the contract will impact upon the delivery of high-quality patient care, the future sustainability of the NHS in England, and feel there could be potential ramifications across the UK.

“[b]We urge everyone involved to restart negotiations without preconditions[/b] as a matter of urgency, bearing in mind the concerns that exist across the healthcare profession.

“[b]A conciliation service – independent of Government - should be brought in[/b] to manage the negotiations and help resolve this situation.”

My own emphasis added to highlight why we were striking - the threat of imposition and refusal to re-enter independently mediated negotiations by the government.

The Royal Colleges are a funny munch anyway - political doctors who have moved so far up the food chain they have forgotten what it is like on the shop floor - Only had contact with the paediatric lot and they are quite frankly a joke, so not particularly surprised they have come out with a statement like that - I would rather look at the hierarchy who are working - the consultant population - and see their view

I love the fact they support the individuals right to strike but not the fact they might actually do so, says it all to me

What the MRCs have said is as follows:
“The academy is urging both sides in the current dispute around junior doctors’ contracts to step back from the brink and re-enter negotiations in good faith so that an agreement can be reached. Failure to do so will have an adverse impact on the NHS and current and future patients.”

They don't seem to have said - "a national strike is a jolly good idea" or "we fully support it"

You talking like JH was prepared to actually negotiate, which as we all know if bullshit. The imminent reality of a strike was required to pull JH to the negotiating table without his wonderful pre-requisites.

It's astounding, (no [i]really[/i], [b]astounding[/b]) how you keep coming back to this thread, trying to spin it back in one direction on your own. Bravo!

You seem very certain that he has a secret agenda to privatise everything so don't you think that the Tories would be cracking on with that

They don't seem to have said - "a national strike is a jolly good idea"

No one thinks it is "a jolly good idea". It is a forced action of last resort. No doctor [i]wants[/i] to strike.

I wonder if this had any influence on the position's from the Royal Colleges?

[img] [/img]

As you say, they are pretty clearly in favour of the AIMS of the dispute.

[url= https://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/news/royal-college-leaders-express-concern-junior-doctor-contract-negotiations ]In an unprecedented move, 15 leaders of medical Royal Colleges and Faculties have expressed their concerns over the recent junior doctor contract proposals. (RCP, 10th October 2015)[/url]

They don't seem to have said .. "we fully support it".

A few have, some more cagily than others. But they are not unions, so while they can support the concerns of the junior doctors (which they emphatically have) they are [i]supposed[/i] to remain neutral on industrial action. So as you say it is all in the nuance:

[i]"The Royal College of Midwives offers its support to the junior doctors if they take industrial action."[/i]
-- [url= https://www.rcm.org.uk/news-views-and-analysis/news/midwives-support-junior-doctors%E2%80%99 ]RCM[/url]

[i]"We have strong empathy for the junior doctors and know that no doctor would make the decision to vote in favour of industrial action
lightly or easily.
... We have been clear to the Government that they would be wrong to try and impose a contractual settlement on junior doctors... we must continue to assume industrial action will take place which is the right of every
junior doctor."[/i]
-- [url= https://www.rcseng.ac.uk/news/docs/junior-contracts-letter-final.pdf ]Royal College of Surgeons[/url]

[i]"The North East England Faculty of the Royal College of General Practitioners would like to show support for Junior Doctors in seeking a satisfactory resolution to their concerns about a new junior doctors' contract...
Doctors choose medicine because they genuinely want to care for their patients and contribute to the health service. The junior doctors' vote in favour of industrial action is an overwhelming indication that they do not think the proposed contract will enable them to do this."[/i]
-- [url= http://www.rcgp.org.uk/news/2015/november/rcgp-north-east-england-faculty-statement-on-junior-doctors-contract.aspx ]RCGP[/url]

Even [url= http://www.aomrc.org.uk/general-news/junior-doctors-the-academy-s-position.html ]the joint statement issued by the Academy Of Medical Royal Colleges[/url] is clear that it supports the right to strike:

[i]"The Academy recognises it is the right of any individual doctor to take industrial action within the guidelines set out by the General Medical Council."[/i]

[b]********** UPDATE **********[/b]

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35225918 ]Talks have failed. The strike is back on![/url] 🙁

No info yet on why talks broke down sadly. Interesting that JH reckons 15 of 16 issues resolved yet BMA say multiple unresolved issues

I wouldn't trust Hunt with a sticking plaster, let alone the NHS.

I didn't know much about the dispute so read up about it and what the new pay structure will be (good explanation here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34775980 ).

I honestly don't know why they are complaining - the current situation is ridiculously outdated compared to any other profession which needs to offer 7 day or 24 hour services.

When I worked in retail I used to get more for a Sunday but people taken on a couple of years after me didn't - just 1x pay (I got 1.5x ish). I could see why as most people don't treat Sunday as special anymore (although on a personal note I wish they did)

A decent proportion of people in work don't get any more per hour for working on a Saturday.

Even now in my cushy (LOLZ) public sector job I don't get as good a deal as the doctors do at the moment.

Bizarre.

There will be lots of spin about how this is just about pay - but Hunt and DoH are consistently ignoring concerns about the removal of safeguards (e.g. financial penalties for Trusts who overwork junior doctors). Hunt's use of stats to justify all this has been [i]very[/i] dubious. And for somebody who claims to champion patient safety, he has been remarkably obstructive in the push for safe staffing (e.g. quashing the NICE studies on nurse:patient ratios).

It's self-defeating, anyway - you won't get a "7 day NHS" (whatever that means... I work in acute care, and we are open 24/7) by stretching existing resources ever more thinly. And given existing recruitment issues in areas like A&E, one wonders who DoH thinks will be staffing the frontline. It is a supreme irony that whilst calling for a (welcome) reduction in agency/locum spend, the DOH are simultaneously engaged in attacking the T&Cs of permanent staff. Ex-NHS medics and nurses are getting a welcome reception overseas, of course... 😈

Edit: in the event of a full strike, I would set Nick Seddon to work on the wards... just to see how long over-promoted policy wonks last in the real world.

When I worked in retail I used to get more for a Sunday but people taken on a couple of years after me didn't - just 1x pay (I got 1.5x ish). I could see why as most people don't treat Sunday as special anymore (although on a personal note I wish they did)

Yeah, but did your employer impose the 'new' lower Sunday pay on you, effectively cutting your pay?

Likewise, what if you were forced to work 6 shifts a week and were therefore guaranteed to work some of those hours at 1.5x, and were then told that those hours currently paid 1.5x were now only 1x = pay cut!

I'd say anyone was entitled to complain if they faced their pay being cut with all else being equal(it's been a few months, I can't remember if doctors currently in the system would have the new pay structure imposed on them or if it's just new doctors). Furthermore I don't believe all else IS equal as some of the safeguards preventing JDs being asked to work longer hours are proposed to be removed.

Less money, potentially longer hours, and the knowledge that a (or % of the) jealous public resent you your hard fought £50,000 salary? Wouldn't you strike if you could?

Oh and finally I would be very dubious of the BBC's reportage on the issue, they somehow neglected to report on the 20,000 (not including those who would have marched were they not on shift...) strong protest march on the streets of London on this very matter...

Interesting article on the Junior Doctor blog:

George Osborne in his latest Spending Review can announce a "half trillion pound settlement, the biggest commitment to the NHS since it's creation". Meanwhile, the chief economist of the King's Fund, states the NHS is facing the "largest sustained fall in spending as a share of GDP". David Cameron can say he's invested "£10bn more into the NHS" while the chief executive of the NHS is aiming for "£22bn in savings"

Surely these widely varying statements aren't compatible? So who's telling the truth?

In fact, all of these statements are correct. No one is lying… technically.

More at http://juniordoctorblog.com/2016/01/05/its-the-spin-that-wins/

Oh and finally I would be very dubious of the BBC's reportage on the issue, they somehow neglected to report on the 20,000 (not including those who would have marched were they not on shift...) strong protest march on the streets of London on this very matter...

Complex issue.

Pay aside, a seven day service is now where near.

Many units rely on locums already to cover Monday to Friday and some rotas have 50% empty slots.

There aren't enough docs to cover five days fully, never mind 7.

Thus the '7 day nhs' is arguablaly a smoke screen for across the board paycuts.

It has all been evidenced in Salford, who themselves even say they don't have a 7 day service!

So how would you provide a better 7 day service then? Without spending more money? Any ideas?

So how would you provide a better 7 day service then?

I wouldn't - at least not until it's demonstrated that it's needed.

Robdob - we have a seven day emergency service.

Nowhere in the world had a seven day elective one.

Only way to have more staff on weekend is have less in week. So likely weekday complication rates will go up and weekend down a bit. There are many, many ways things could be better without more staff at weekends.

Nice article:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/roshana-mehdian/hunts-cunning-stunt-a-guide_b_8938006.html

[quote=robdob ]So how would you provide a better 7 day service then? Without spending more money? Any ideas?
16 pages in and still repeating the Hunt line/lie that the NHS is not 7 days a week. Facts just seem to pass some folk by.

If the NHS isn't a 7 day service why is my ENP wife going to work later today for a 10 hour shift in the ED?

If the NHS isn't a 7 day service why is my ENP wife going to work later today for a 10 hour shift in the ED?

Well, either she has got her calendar mixed up, or Chunt is lying. I wonder which?

Nice smear campaign by The Sun:

[url= http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/6850988/Luxury-lifestyles-of-junior-doctor-strike-leaders.html ]Moet medics: High life of docs leaders who are heading up NHS strike
EXCLUSIVE: Pics show champagne-swilling lavish lifestyles enjoyed by striking 'Moet medics'[/url]

[i]"Look we trawled through their facebook photos and found that some of these doctors can afford to go on skiing holidays, meet elephants or even drink fizzy wine."[/i]

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story eh?

http://www.buzzfeed.com/laurasilver/this-moet-medic-smeared-by-the-sun-was-actually-volunteering
http://www.buzzfeed.com/laurasilver/buying-waitrose-toilet-paper-because-yolo

The NHS isn't 24 hours ? Cool I will tell MrsFla she doesn't have to work this weekend (2 x 12 hr shifts on tops of a normal week - yay !

We should have a 7 day parliament to get stuff done gooder

I went to my local hospital for a scan in Saturday. Quite surprised and a very pleasant experience it was too. The delightful radiographer was not so happy though (unsurprisingly) as she had a full day of appointments.

Seen early, very efficient, pleasant experience given the intimate nature of the sessions 😉 I had gone in with a book fully prepared for a nightmare wait. But was quite the opposite.

Well isn't that just grand.

Our esteemed Secretary of State for Health creates a confrontation leading to the first doctor's strike in 40 years with 98% support from the union members.

And then the government just try to ignore it and hope it all goes away.

Yay democracy. 🙁

Is this the Hunt you are talking about ... ?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/more-heart-patients-die-as-hunt-gives-999-dispatchers-longer-to-send-ambulance-a3154171.html

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/health/junior-doctors-give-up-protest-because-theyre-so-****g-knackered-20160112105264

I'll always support doctors and the NHS. We're very lucky to have them/it.

Any politician trying to screw either over won't have my vote next year.

or Chunt is lying

The test for this is, did his lips move? Yes? He's lying!

Is this the Hunt you are talking about ... ?

Doesn't mean Hunt is not a complete **** though.

My junior doc colleagues 2 out of 5 joined the picket for at least part +)1 ended up going back in for the afternoon to help out anyway) of the day, 1 went into work as normal, 2 were at work in the uni so not in hospital

For the sake of anyone joining us from [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/so-is-it-about-patient-safety-or-is-it-just-about-the-money ]bluehelmet's closed thread[/url] with an acute case of TL;DR

they want more monnneeeyyyy! Less work more pay please

Anyone who believes this hasn't being paying attention to what the dispute is about at all.

[b]They DON'T want more money or less hours. [/b]

The dispute is about the proposed changes to their contracts which would see them (or doctors after them) get significantly LESS money for the same work they do now and would also effectively remove the safeguards that prevent trusts from making them work dangerously long hours.

Is this the Hunt you are talking about ... ?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/more-heart-patients-die-as-hunt-gives-999-dispatchers-longer-to-send-ambulance-a3154171.html

Suspected cardiac cases are still dispatched the same there's only change for suspected none life threatening.

GrahamS - Member
The dispute is about the proposed changes to their contracts which would see them (or doctors after them) get significantly LESS money for the same work they do now and would also effectively remove the safeguards that prevent trusts from making them work dangerously long hours.

GrahamS,

I think the Junior/doctors have actually targeted the wrong people i.e. they have targeted the govt when they should be targeting the management. They are Not the same people IMO.

If fact what they actually have is incompetent management ZM bureaucrats. You do know managers/management are recruited based on their paper qualification rather than their true ability to manage don't you? You simply cannot blame the govt for the poor hospital management as if the Ministers are all working in the hospital everyday like the managers or the one that recruited them.

All govt personnel, regardless of Ministers, still need to get information from the management so the question is who feed the govt those information? Management of course ... what do you think? Sacrifices their own job/salary/pay to feed the govt the true information or blame others?

As for the Union they are just the opposite of the management with the same intention of staying in power by stirring up others for their own agenda.

You lot are screwed!
We are all Screwed!
Welcome to the drone world of ZM bureaucracy!

🙄

edit: You cannot even manage NHS yet people are calling to join up to be full member of EU which is an even larger "organisation"! The problem will be multiply by millions ... 😯

Are these people experts (those calling for full EU membership) in bureaucracy and the evolution of management in organisation? They really don't know where they are heading do they?

why should any of my friends or immediate family be put at risk by strike? It's a bit different from a bus driver going on strike, this could actually cost lives, shame on them ...really shame on the effing lot of em.

Lets rewrite the hipocratic oath to **** you our contract is now more important.

Ps edit, I know doctors aren't bound by this.

Data suggests strikes improve outcomes as more care delivered by seniors....

why should any of my friends or immediate family be put at risk by strike? It's a bit different from a bus driver going on strike, this could actually cost lives, shame on them ...really shame on the effing lot of em.

Lets rewrite the hipocratic oath to **** you our contract is now more important.

Ps edit, I know doctors aren't bound by this.

Indeed, why even pay the selfish bastards? They should work for free because if they don't it could cost lives! 😯

philxx1975 - Member
why should any of my friends or immediate family be put at risk by strike? It's a bit different from a bus driver going on strike, this could actually cost lives, shame on them ...really shame on the effing lot of em.

Lets rewrite the hipocratic oath to **** you our contract is now more important.

you do know they are only striking from non-essential duties?

heres a post a friend put on FB

BBC News.... "Mr Hunt said the number that had gone into work showed "the values of the vast majority of junior doctors". Of 26,000, 11,000 showed up to work.
Just to clarify, Jeremy Hunt. I was in work today not because I disagreed with the strike or because I had higher values than my colleagues but because some of us had to to ensure people were safe. I don't agree with you. I support my colleagues. You're an idiot and once again you've demonstrated that.

why should any of my friends or immediate family be put at risk by strike? It's a bit different from a bus driver going on strike, this could actually cost lives, shame on them ...really shame on the effing lot of em.

The consultants and other colleagues are (willingly) covering the strikes.

The doctors don't strike lightly - that's why this is the first one in forty odd years - but worries about patient safety is one of the biggest reasons they are striking.

Where would they be on the Hippocratic Oath if they stood by and allowed changes to be introduced which they believe compromise patient safety?