Our starting graduate average salary is £23,285, higher than a doctor's starting salary. This despite being a 3/4 year undergrad base rather than the longer doctoral qualification.
Yes but the average "salary" for the junior doctos is only part of a remuneration package that typically includes an additional 30-50% of supplements and allowances on top of the salary, and a pension scheme that would equate to an employer contribution of around 25%. So the average junior doctor actually earns twice what the average graduate makes in salary. That's not to say this is wrong, more that a sensible discussion should at least include relevant facts.
The BMA have consistently made their comparisons on base salary alone which says a lot about the level of integrity and ethics behind the current "campaign" which is precisely why they've refused to even discuss it with the dept of health since June.
I mention it just because people keep pointing at starting grad salaries; but
just5minutes - MemberSo the average junior doctor actually earns twice what the average graduate makes in salary.
But the average junior doctor is working longer and more unsociable hours than the average graduate, and has spent longer in higher education, making them both more qualified and more in debt and with a shorter overall career earning period. (a fairer comparison is with postgrads tbh but even then it's uneven)
just5minutes - correct but the allowance is only if working 48 hours, and weekends/nights/evenings but yes fair comment
So the average junior doctor actually earns twice what the average graduate makes in salary. That's not to say this is wrong, more that a sensible discussion should at least include relevant facts.
Indeed. Where are your facts though? Where do you get this from?
Average uk graduate starting salary is £28k according to this ( http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34186954). A fully banded FY1 doctor will earn slightly more than this (c£29k) after banding for all the antisocial hours etc. Bear in mind that the average doesn't take into account whether you're a straight A at A level student doing 5-6years at a decent Russell group university or whether you did some non-subject at the University of Nowheresville.
If you're going to spout the need to check facts, please check your own.
Don't misinterpret me, though. I'm not saying we deserve to be better-paid. I'm just saying that the perceptions of our pay are (mostly) overestimated and a further cut (over the 25% cut we've seen since 2008) is insulting.
The BMA have consistently made their comparisons on base salary alone which says a lot about the level of integrity and ethics behind the current "campaign" which is precisely why they've refused to even discuss it with the dept of health since June.
Your posts read like press releases from the govts PR department
Your posts are not impartial statements of facts either they are highly selective to further your agenda and then you have the nerve to criticise them for the same thing
you are an irony and self awareness free zone
just5minutes
The BMA have consistently made their comparisons on base salary alone which says a lot about the level of integrity and ethics behind the current "campaign" which is precisely why they've refused to even discuss it with the dept of health since June.
[url= http://bma.org.uk/working-for-change/in-depth-junior-and-consultant-contract/ddrb-recommendations-analysis-for-juniors/10-reasons-for-not-reentering-2015-junior-contract-negotiations ]10 reasons why the BMA are not entering re-negotiations[/url]
The Government has told us that they want to introduce the new contract for the August 2016 intake, and that they are prepared to impose it if no agreement can be found. The BMA cannot be held to ransom with threats of imposition – if we go back to a pseudo-negotiation we are being defeated. A return to talks under these terms is not compatible with upholding the integrity of the profession or the BMA.
want to introduce the new contract for the August 2016 intake,
Hang on, so it only applies to NEW entrants?
These arguments are going round and round in circles! We have been very clear what a first year Doctor earns before and after banding throughout this thread. The reason that the before banding salary is relevant is because its the only directly applicable thing to what other graduates earn. Do you think if other graduates regularly worked the weekend and nights they would be content with putting it down as overtime and doing it for the basic salary?
ninfan - government said they would impose on all. Not just new starters.
Yes but the average "salary" for the junior doctos is only part of a remuneration package that typically includes an additional 30-50% of supplements and allowances on top of the salary
...
The BMA have consistently made their comparisons on base salary alone which says a lot about the level of integrity and ethics behind the current "campaign"...
I don't think that's true at all.
The BMA's main objection regards the changes to those [i]"30-50% of supplements and allowances"[/i] which come from the unsociable hours bandings.
They've been pretty clear about that.
May be the Doctors/BMA should pose this question to Mr Jeremy Hunt, to use the words of Robin Day.
"But why should the public, on this issue, as regards the future of the NHS, believe you, a transient, here-today and, if I may say so, gone-tomorrow politician"
Painful as it is for me to say it.
I agree with Junkyard. You're a real parody of the government propaganda just5minutes spouting bullet points you have no idea about.
We should stand with them - and against the liar Hunt (who denied suppressing the news on most Health Trusts being in the red until after the Tory conference, although it is clear that this is what happened.)
All in the interests of fragmenting the NHS and letting his nasty corporate friends in to really screw things up (as they undoubtedly will.)
But FunkyDunc - I agree with Drac, you underestimate nurse specialists and practitioners, who in my area (neuro) are much needed and in some cases better and certainly more accessible than consultants. But also, if we fight and blame each other, we are allowing Hunt a way in. Together we are stronger.
Re nurse specialist, sorry I wasn't trying to belittle them. It is however an odd government agenda to reduce doctor numbers, but increase these type of nursing post, which cost slightly less than a doctor, but further reduce the pool of more 'middle' doctors.
Once a doctors post gets taken away, you don't get it back. ( This is direct experience of an ED department )
Do you think if other graduates regularly worked the weekend and nights they would be content with putting it down as overtime and doing it for the basic salary?
The point is that the BMA are making comparisons to other graduate jobs like law, banking etc. In those jobs very long hours are also common but there is no such thing as "overtime" and there are no routine supplements and allowances.
Just wondering what grad entrants at all the naysayers places of work would get paid if they were doing similar hours/shifts/anti social hours to a typical junior doctor?
A quick fag packet calculation, based on the minimum grad starting salary at the last place i worked in the UK (£23500 last year), they'd be on about 50-55 grand. Including OT and the minimum shift bonus.
A masters or PhD would get them an extra 5-7 odd grand on basic, 10-15 by the time all the extra hours are factored in, a specialist field might get them an extra 10 grand as well.
And that's all just to make profit and destroy the environment.
Puts junior doctors salaries into perspective.
I think new starters with a master's degree get about 45k at my place.
The point is that the BMA are making comparisons to other graduate jobs like law, banking etc
You mean the jobs where hooray Henries get mega bonuses just to screw up the economy?
(This game of sweeping baseless generalisation is fun, isn't it?)
BHSc will get you £21,692 after 3 years studying working for us. Of course with the massive enhancement, pension and paid overtime that translates into more like £3m in hater terms.
Re pension. Mrs FD is seriously considering coming out of the NHS Pension. How's this for a good one. Her contribution rate will double, she will have to work longer, but the maximum pension pot she can have has been reduced by a third. So she will keep on contributing, but her pension pot will be capped.
Again no ones saying she's going to be poor in retirement, just hardly fair.
I'm seriously toying with dropping out too... Though it'll be an extra tax burden, I really do need to sit down and consider it.. I could have a few nice BTLs ("boo, hiss...he's behind you..") which would serve me well come the "F this, I'm out" years..
DrP
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34598335 ]Who says Mr Hunt doesn't have it in for the NHS and Doctors...[/url]
This piece by a female surgeon neatly sums up how I am starting to feel about the whole debacle:
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/healthcare-network/2015/oct/22/nhs-doctor-surgeon-junior-contract-quit-job-stress-family-children ]I'm sorry, I can't face being a doctor any more[/url]
That article is a mess, and lacking in hard fact and she doesn't seem cut out for being a medic. (1) The bit around seeing her kids she is only saying what working mums have always battled with i.e. time to see the kids. (2) Starting an article with 'My juniors tell me I’m an inspiration.' is utterly beside the point. (3) 'I have told people that they are dying. I have told a woman her child may not survive.' That's part of the job, not a fun bit I grant you, but what else did you expect? (4) 'I have not eaten or drunk anything over a 13-hour period more times than I can remember.' Really, how long does it take to grab a drink? (5) 'I can’t afford the petrol to drive to work each day.' Really on what ~35K salary?
What I have realised though from this debate is that women in a lot of cases clearly aren't cut out for being top end doctors. Men have far more time to devote themselves to the profession without the concern of looking after kids and are far less emotive.
What I have realised though from this debate is that women in a lot of cases clearly aren't cut out for being top end doctors. Men have far more time to devote themselves to the profession without the concern of looking after kids and are far less emotive.
😯
Really, how long does it take to grab a drink?
Long enough that it's a common problem... http://www.bmj.com/content/341/bmj.c6761
What I have realised though from this debate is that women in a lot of cases clearly aren't cut out for being top end doctors. Men have far more time to devote themselves to the profession without the concern of looking after kids and are far less emotive.
Well I've just realised something too.
😯 +1
LOL - I can't even be bothered finding a troll meme picture...
It is a bit OTT.
This year every few weeks I have not seen my children for five days straight
Squaddies on far less cash don't see their kids for months at a time. I worked shifts where I didn't see my kids 1 week in 4. Part of being a shift worker.
50 mile commute? Get a job nearer home.
This year I have been screamed at, spat at and kicked. I have physically removed excrement from someone who needed that help.
Part of the job. I've been assaulted, screamed at, told people their relative has died, dealt with rotting dead bodies, worked 17 hour shifts, worked 14 12hr shifts in a row.
But if she doesn't like the job go do something else. Life's too short to stsy in a job you don't enjoy.
irc - Member50 mile commute? Get a job nearer home.
not easy when you're on rotation, or a short term contract. you'd need to move home every 6months/year.
ianad, but i know loads. They love their job, but often they don't know which city/county they'll be working in a few months down the line.
but this isn't what they're all gnashing their teeth about, they don't seem to really mind the long/antisocial hours, the travelling, the blah blah blah. Everything you're asking them to deal with they are. And more.
not easy when you're on rotation, or a short term contract. you'd need to move home every 6months/year.ianad, but i know loads. They love their job, but often they don't know which city/county they'll be working in a few months down the line.
this is very true
ianad, but i know loads. They love their job, but often they don't know which city/county they'll be working in a few months down the line.
Reminds me of a memorable time that one of my colleagues was told that he was not staying in Carlisle for another 6 months, but was in fact being moved to Middlesbrough. [b][i]2 days[/b][/i] in advance. He'd already signed the contract to renew the lease on his flat in Carlisle for the 6 months, and was told that it was his fault for signing it too far in advance...
dragon - MemberWhat I have realised though from this debate is that women in a lot of cases clearly aren't cut out for being top end doctors. Men have far more time to devote themselves to the profession without the concern of looking after kids and are far less emotive.
Quite a lot of the arseholes on this forum are annoyingly canny about hiding the fact that they're arseholes. So this is refreshing
right, just checked with my pal next to me, his girlfriend is a junior doctor.
among other things;
They're planning to remove the restriction on how many hours doctors can be [s]asked[/s] required to work.
(well, the restriction will still be there, but it won't be enforced. of course it will be ignored)
working part-time will mean a Dr is no longer eligible for the anti-social hours pay-rate.
'normal' hours, will extend to 10pm, and Saturdays.
He'd already signed the contract to renew the lease on his flat in Carlisle for the 6 months, and was told that it was his fault for signing it too far in advance...
should have done the sensible thing and hedged his bets with a house that's handy for Carlisle, Middlesborough, Whitehaven and Ashington - I'm sure irc will be happy to suggest somewhere.
What I have realised though from this debate is that women in a lot of cases clearly aren't cut out for being top end doctors.
Seriously?
My local Emergency Dept has more female Consultants than male, they're all bloody damned good too.
You should be well and truly ashamed of such comments.
should have done the sensible thing and hedged his bets with a house that's handy for Carlisle, Middlesborough, Whitehaven and Ashington
We had exactly that problem. The missus rotation could take her anywhere from Carlisle to South Shields. They even tried to make her go to Middlesborough too, but we drew the line at that because it wasn't in her original contract and a 2hr commute at the end of a 14 hour night shift would be suicide.
In the 3 years before I started my PhD, I spent a year commuting from Newcastle to Carlisle every day (65 miles each way) and a year commuting to Middlesbrough every day (43 miles each way). The year before I was in Carlisle, my boyfriend spent the year there instead. It's pretty soul destroying. My boyfriend has written off 2 cars crashing after night shifts on long commutes, and I know one colleague who died in an RTA in similar circumstances.
'I have told people that they are dying. I have told a woman her child may not survive.' That's part of the job, not a fun bit I grant you, but what else did you expect?
Have you ever had to do it? I bet not. It's part of my job it's awful, I hate it, it tears me apart inside and then I was expected to move on to another case straight after that without a break, 10 minutes to myself. Yes it's part of my job that does not make it any easier, it's one of the hardest and emotional things to do.
'I have not eaten or drunk anything over a 13-hour period more times than I can remember.' Really, how long does it take to grab a drink?
You're pretty clueless for someone who works in healthcare from what I recall. It's sometimes not possible for this to be done as the workloads are massive. My staff go 9-10 hours without a break and they have a break period written in. I had a crew give their break up recently as I asked them if they would due to a possible child needing resuscitation near by, they did and I can't ever thank enough for what they did. They acted like true professionals they didn't quibble or moan they seen it as part of their duty. It wasn't they were on a break period which is entirely their own time.
Really on what ~35K salary?
What makes you think it's that much, have you read any of the posts on here?
Dragon the more you post the more you reveal yourself as not being a very pleasant person but today you have stooped to a massive low.
Reading that just makes me grateful we have people like you , and your team, who do what you do.
From the bottom of my heart Thanks you ,all of you.
You're welcome Junkyard and thank you.
On multiple occasions in my career I've had to watch doctors, nurses and EMT's fight to save lives of those wounded in the most terrible ways, I've seen the look of desperation and failure on their faces when, no matter how hard they try they cannot save them. Yet every day they'd mount up and be prepared to fly into god knows what to try and save lives. I have never met a more dedicated, passionate, professional and selfless group of people in my life.
My point? These are not greedy capitalist, they're people who choose medicine to selflessly help others, it's not to much to pay them what they're worth. Because, in my opinion, junior or not, they're worth every damn penny.
*WARNING* Some images are NSFW
[url= http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/british-army-soldier-signaler-neil-mackie-26-years-old-and-news-photo/111846385 ]RAF MERT in action[/url]
Well-said, Moose - and those MERT teams/QAs/MAs/CMTs etc all rotate thru NHS emergency and critical care depts.
It's notable that the editor of the BMJ is now calling out Hunt on his BS [ab-]use of stats. You won't get a "7 day NHS" by stretching existing resources ever more thinly - gaps in care are not just a simply a matter of consultant presence, it's the whole friggin' team! In their effort to smash this thru, DoH are - pointedly - ignoring the realities of acute care.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34598335
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-hunts-leadership-claim-shows-a-man-grotesquely-out-of-his-depth-a6683601.html ]Jeremy Hunt, who believes in nothing but his own advancement, is something worse. He is a cynical fool.[/url]
How did this mendacious creep end up as SoS for Health? (I know, I know...).
How did this mendacious creep end up as SoS for Health? (I know, I know...).
It was a tough call finding someone even more spineless and totally "for sale" than Lansley but they did it!
Btw if anyone is not feeling cross enough, google what Lansley's new job is. But don't worry. He has undertaken a solemn promise not to use his considerable inside knowledge and experience as former SoS for health for at least two years so we can all sleep easy on that completely predictable career move.
