[Closed] Death wish overtaking on the A9

OK,l stand corrected irc. I was under the impression that the 375b was over and above the Barnett,strangely announced just before a nasty Indy campaign.

sorry for delay in answering,
all citylink coaches have a speed limiter set at 100kph, just over 62mph.
however, the nsl for a bus on a single carraigeway road is 50mph, so if one of our coaches is up your bumper where it shouldnt be try and get the reg number and report it to citylink, there is a phone number on the website.
all the vehicles are fitted with gps based speed/distance/location recorders which identify the driver also.

irc - Member

Not Crossrail. Scotland got 500 million under Barnett for Crossrail.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/scotland-given-500m-sop-for-crossrail-6616253.html

however, the nsl for a bus on a single carraigeway road is 50mph

I don't think they use the NSL in Scotland. All speed limits are explicitly stated (i.e 60, or 70). From my limited experience of driving there anyway.

We have the NSL here too.

Yes, and more people live and work in London than in all of Scotland.
Maybe there should be a 50 mph average speed camera enforced limit on this 'most dangerous Scotch road'?

Or maybe it should be dualed? Or perhaps improving the commute for Londoners is more important that the not insignificant number of people ( not just from "scotchland") who die/are injured on it each year.

Well maybe they should learn to drive safely instead of putting themselves and other people at risk? And that the operators of the road should put measures into place so that dangerous driving is detected and appropriate punishment made?
How many passenger miles/ year on this road? What would be reasonably practicable?

It's not peculiar to the A9. Some of the idiots you come across on the A65 west of Skipton are unbelievable. Desperate to get past even though there are only a handful of possible overtaking spots.

There's quite a lot of spots to overtake safely if you've got enough power considering how slowly some of the tourists/coffin dodgers drive along there. It doesn't help that the only places I've seen a mobile speed camera on there is on the 3 lane bypass by Settle or one of the long straights near Clapham which are the safest places to overtake.

part of the issue on the a9 is also varying speed limits for different vehicles ...

as for APs post - you strike me as someone who lives in a me centric bubble based on your last couple of posts

all "improving" londoners commute does is increase the distance from which people consider it ok to commute to london from - repeat moaning adnausem
t.

this is a main artery of scotland - this get supplies to the highlands and islands of scotland - its not just a road to bumble **** that people drive for fun.

as for APs post - you strike me as someone who lives in a me centric bubble based on your last couple of posts

Not the first time he has had a whinge about money being spent on Scottish infrastructure

[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/scottish-railways-receive-highest-government-funding-why ]"Yet more subsidies for Scotland" - chippy southerner[/url] 🙂 😉

Perth to Blair Atholl it's barely worth overtaking anything unless it's really quiet; I'll happily drive at speed limit and know it well enough to know where it _is_ safe to overtake and where it just looks like it might be. Speeds are high and sight lines often more limited than you might think. Wasn't always the way but now I stick to speed limit, try to avoid ending up lead car in a queue, leave plenty space and if people want to pass let them get on with it. Having a quicker car makes it more relaxing as you can pop past things if required so don't "need" to take chances.

Perth to Inverness is 112 miles so at 60 that's 2 hours, at 40 three hours. Hopefully the average speed cameras will help but only if lorries are allowed to do 50 as well. Sooner it's upgraded to dual the better really.

A65 always scared me too, used to live in Leeds and head up into the Dales or Lakes for riding, bad mix of people in a rush, pensioners and motorbikes.

sorry for delay in answering,
all citylink coaches have a speed limiter set at 100kph, just over 62mph.
however, the nsl for a bus on a single carraigeway road is 50mph, so if one of our coaches is up your bumper where it shouldnt be try and get the reg number and report it to citylink, there is a phone number on the website.
all the vehicles are fitted with gps based speed/distance/location recorders which identify the driver also.

Hmm well it was certainly doing waaay over 62mph, it might have been the megabus though with hindsight. Interesting on the gps, I could probably figure out the date/time actually as I was heading up for the snowman rally.

ALL old A roads are bad, they were built at a time when there was much less traffic and it went a lot slower; on older turnpikes like the A5 in Wales it wasn't even motorised. Over the decades the A roads must have had a disproportionate amount of cash thrown at them for safety improvements compared with motorways. As with the RNs in France, people need to learn that you can't hurry on an A road like on a motorway.

Oh, I'm not winging about spending money on Scottish infrastructure - I think you guys spend too much time moaning already, it's just that your buttons are so easy to press 😉
You still haven't answered my question though.
How many passenger miles per year on that road? And if its such a dangerous road why not rigidly enforce speed limits and driving standards?

And if its such a dangerous road why not rigidly enforce speed limits and driving standards?

It doesn't tend to be speeding that causes the issues ime, it's frustration caused by being held up by slow moving vehicles and not enough sections of dual carriage ways.

And if its such a dangerous road why not rigidly enforce speed limits and driving standards?

How many passenger miles per year on that road?

Why does that matter?

it's an arterial route, many people have no option but to use that road.

Just because people choose not to live in a city where they're never more than 1.5" away from the nearest person, doesn't mean that their right to adequate, safe transport should be prejudiced.

The A9 is poorly designed. If it was a transport route in London, people would be falling over themselves to whinge about it. Worth a try might even get a £15bn new railway 🙂

Just because passenger mileage is lower, doesn't make the user of that road lower priority IMO. If we calculated all spending on that basis, nothing would ever get down outside of cities.

Between 2006 and 2010, it claimed more lives than any other road in Scotland with a death toll of 67, while there were 58 fatalities between 2008 and 2012, an average of slightly more than 14 a year.

[url= http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/five-injured-in-serious-crash-on-notorious-stretch-of-a9-x.23137762 ]Linky
[/url]

“There have also been over a 1,000 accidents on the A9 in the last five years, meaning that we are witnessing more than 200 accidents a year on average and an accident every second day.

[url= http://www.maryscanlonmsp.com/index.php/press-releases/10-a9-accident-fatality-rate ]Linky[/url]

traffic has or seems to have got noticeably busier in the last 10 / 15 years definitely. One problem - alongside many - is the Noah's Ark mix of traffic, other is that the sight lines are tempting to wing for a speculative overtake - and then you're into bullying / aggressive overtakes - some mis-judged, others just plain out of order..

[edit] - and I see where you're at for the old 'passenger miles' routine, but -
a/ there's a lot of haulage use that route, is that simply 0 passengers?
b/ often, especially around the Pitlochry - Kingussie stretch, if there's an incident that closes the road -- it's an absolute nightmare for diversions, any diversion is 2/3 hours extra easily, and in winter - more, or indeed the diversion closed as well (as I've found in the past, ended up going from Edinburgh to Elgin via Aberdeen, which was nice and took about 7 hours..

Bearing in mind how many people from London have retired to Inverness, can it not come out of Boris's budget?

“There have also been over a 1,000 accidents on the A9 in the last five years, meaning that we are witnessing more than 200 accidents a year on average and an accident every second day.

i.e. it's not actually that dangerous, given its length. According to [url= http://www.roadsafetyfoundation.org/media/29912/rrm_britain_07-11.pdf ]this report[/url], the A9 is a low/medium-risk road.

That graphic shows those roads which have a high number of serious/fatal accidents against the number of total users.

The issue with the A9 (and A82) is that they are the only viable options for north/south travel in Scotland. People don't have a whole lot of choice but to use them. Add in the fact that the A9 in particular is poorly designed and you've got a crap situation for people who need to use it, whether daily or every now and then.

In reality, it's just a few sections of the A9 which are the worst for accidents, so that probably accounts for the low risk rating on that graphic. But for many people using the road, they're using a significant length of it, including the blackspots.

It would be interesting to see a break-down of A9 accidents by carriageway type. However, as I've already pointed out, a significant number of the accidents are taking place north of Inverness, an area not being significantly upgraded (Berriedale Braes being a notable exception - and not for safety).

Lots of people mentioning what the ave speed cameras might do. I haven't noticed anyone post it before but here's the site with as much info on it as they seem to have published about the basis for the decision.
[url= http://www.a9road.info/ ]A9info[/url]

I use the A9 lots for work and am not looking forward to it as I suspect there will be lots more convoys with frustration overtaking going on a-plenty.

[quote=oldbloke ]Lots of people mentioning what the ave speed cameras might do. I haven't noticed anyone post it before but here's the site with as much info on it as they seem to have published about the basis for the decision.
A9info
I use the A9 lots for work and am not looking forward to it as I suspect there will be lots more convoys with frustration overtaking going on a-plenty.
That would only be the case if a significant number of drivers currently break the law.

77% of all KSI accidents occurred on single carriageways

That's from your link the A9 oldbloke. Some sobering stuff in there.

No it wouldn't Druidh. The convoys form behind vehicles doing less than the speed limit. Most of the vehicles overtaking are doing so within the speed limit, at least for the early part of the overtake. There are so many HGVs doing 40 now on the A9 that most overtakes are in the 40-60 mph range.

[quote=oldbloke ]No it wouldn't Druidh. The convoys form behind vehicles doing less than the speed limit. Most of the vehicles overtaking are doing so within the speed limit, [b]at least for the early part of the overtake[/b]. I rest my case.
[quote=oldbloke ] There are so many HGVs doing 40 now on the A9 that most overtakes are in the 40-60 mph range.
Really? Most I see are travelling at 50mph (and that A9 report you linked to backs me up).

I should say that the Tesco lorries are a notable exception.

Some sobering stuff in there.

On the way to visit In Laws with my wife and young son in the car.
We'd just driven through Arrochar and were on the A83, where it climbs parallel to Loch Long.
We were just reaching the top of the wee climb, approaching in the other direction was a BT van, when a tit in a wee sports car came flying out from behind the van.
I couldn't swerve, with a 20 or 30 foot drop to Loch Long feet to my left, so just had to slam the brakes on and hope we didn't hit. He flashed past within centimetres of my wing mirror.

A second or 2 later and theres no way he'd have missed, and that, I'm pretty sure, would have been it for us. A family of 3 dead because some tit in a fast car thought he was so special that he could overtake on a blind bend.

I think you'll find he was just "pushing on" 🙄

[i]making progress[/i] 😉

aP - Member
making progress

No, he was being a tit.

Stop tarring reasonable drivers who use these expressions with that brush.

Heading for Skye one day on the motorbike I found myself in a situation that even today I cant believe I survived.
Diddling along past the five sisters (range of hills - not local ladies) cos it was a bit dampish, I came round a corner doing about 50, when **** me a Skye marble lorry was overtaking a naval fuel bowser right into my face.
Luckily it was a left hander and I was banked over a wee bit, but even then I had about 2 feet left to play with. The tosser didn't even slow down or brake. In fact he had already gone through one bend and this was his second. What he was doing playing Russian roulette I'll never know.
Now I turned the bike round and passed everyone inc the trucker (at least 10 cars behind both trucks), then came to a halt in order to get his number. Of course I promptly forgot it cos my knees turned to jelly. But if I ever meet the f****r on a dark night, I will make sure he never drives a lorry - ever, ever again!

@bigjim
citylink/megabus = same thing, same drivers, same vehicles, same gps.
95% are fitted with cctv too.
a bus could over run the speed limiter downhill, quite easily, they weigh 16.5 tons when empty.
seriously though, if one of our drivers is being a tit, report him/her, the company dont want dangerous drivers, and tbh i dont want tarred with the same brush.
vehicle reg, time date and approx location will do.

sangobegger theres a section of Snake Pass here in the Peaks which is begging for dual-solid white lines. Its unsighted/if you don't know it you'll think its safe to overtake but its lethal. You see many lines (into the soft grass and into wire fencing) where it looks like someone swerved to avoid.

c.f. Wacky Races - then have to explain what the Wacky races were...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-25929298

Ha! Timely article!

The average speed cameras won't stop a lot of the slower overtaking of tesco lorries but should stop the crazy 90mph sprint overtaking that happens on the dual carriageway sections, where everyone feels they absolutely have to get in front of everyone else.

I reckon 90% of objectors to the average speed cameras are really objecting because they want to break the speed limit themselves.

They won't stop the crazy 90mph over takes though. If you're stuck behind a lorry/slow traffic for any length of time then slow back down to the speed limit after you're past, the overtake was just as dangerous and your average won't be illegal.

Depends how long the average is measured over, shirley?

True, but unless they install they make the distance very short, I can't see it helping the accident rate all that much.

I reckon 90% of objectors to the average speed cameras are really objecting because they want to break the speed limit themselves.

The only 90mph warrior I've been passed by recently was pulled by the police moments later.

The issue is about average speeds and keeping them up, not by high peak speeds but by reducing the amount of time at low speeds. Oddly Transport Scotland told me they wanted to make journey times "more reliable" but were unable to point to any research suggesting how that would be either measured or influenced.

The only 90mph warrior I've been passed by recently was pulled by the police moments later.

An exception rather than the rule. The Police coverage of the A9 is tiny, it's a 273 mile long road with maybe 2 or 3 police cars on it at peak times?

Made up statistic alert.

Yes, that's why I started the sentence with 'I reckon'.

True, but unless they install they make the distance very short, I can't see it helping the accident rate all that much.

I'm bored so I did the calculations. Assuming the cameras are half a mile apart, doing 3/4 of that distance at 60mph and 1/4 at 90mph, that gives an average speed of 65.45mph so it's very borderline.

I doubt the cameras will be half a mile apart, the road is approx 136 miles long, which would make 272 cameras one way, 544 two ways. How much infrastructure needs to go in to support that lot?

'm bored so I did the calculations. Assuming the cameras are half a mile apart, doing 3/4 of that distance at 60mph and 1/4 at 90mph, that gives an average speed of 65.45mph so it's very borderline.

Lots of assumptions in that calculation, change it a little and its no longer borderline.

For reference on the A77 there is a 32 mile stretch covered by average speed cameras, they can be up to five miles apart

I doubt the cameras will be half a mile apart

[url= http://a9road.info/frequently-asked-questions ]FAQ[/url]

And only one set work on the A77. What dropped the accident rate on the A77 was shutting, or upgrading, some of the suicidal junctions and dualing it.

For reference on the A77 there is a 32 mile stretch covered by average speed cameras, they can be up to five miles apart

On the dual carriageway section approaching the Monkton Lodge, they're about half a mile apart

I guess there will be detailed analysis and simulations and the planning and placement of them will be optimised to reduced the speeds in the most important places? So some sections longer or shorter than others. What you don't want to happen is people being scared of overtaking quickly (but safely) on the duelled sections and causing further frustration on the single carriageway sections.

Not read through all the posts but around Springtime 2014 they are going to raise the A9 LGV limit to 50mph on selected sections. It will be for a trial period & monitored in the hope it might ease some of the frustration on that road.

Time will tell of course.

There are so many HGVs doing 40 now

around Springtime 2014 they are going to raise the A9 LGV limit to 50mph on selected sections.

Given that the speed limit for LGVs and HGVs is 40mph on [i]all [/i]A roads I've never really understood why the A9 is pretty much the only A road in the UK where truck drivers routinely observe that limit. The A76 near me is one of the few where there are regular signs highlighting the 40mph limit for trucks and the limit is almost universally ignored. A truck driver delivering to my workshop actually had to ask me whether the signs even applied to him- he genuinely didn't know what the limit for his vehicle was on a single carriageway or that the signs were stating something that applied to all A roads not just the one he'd just driven down.

Even making an exception and raising the limit on the A9 trucks would still be travelling slower than they do anywhere else and people will still overtake them because of that so I'm not entirely sure what the trial can hope to prove. You'd either need to go the whole hog and raise it to 60 or drop the limit for cars down to 50.

I don't know what all the fuss is about. As a kid in the 1970s being taken up there by my parents, it was single carriageway all the way, going through every town and village and getting stuck behind caravans towed by Austin Allegros.

Total nightmare and the crashes were just as bad believe me...

[quote=maccruiskeen ]I've never really understood why the A9 is pretty much the only A road in the UK where truck drivers routinely observe that limit. Are you taking the piss?

Total nightmare and the crashes were just as bad believe me...

I think this is what the fuss is about

I've noticed a rise in stupid overtaking manoeuvres over the last decade or so quite possibly due to the increased performance of the average car encouraging risk taking.

I've also noticed an increased proportion of drivers reluctant to overtake other vehicles under any circumstances for what ever reason.

It would solve a lot of problems on these A roads if drivers unwilling to overtake left enough of a gap in front allowing others to do so safely. Some of the convoys you encounter are terrible, vehicles bunched up together, leaving no room for overtaking whatsoever.

As much as speeding and dangerous driving should be a priority for the ever dwindling police patrols, I would like to see them address this as well.

Are you taking the piss?

in what respect?

"[i]Truck drivers routinely obeying the 40mph limit[/i]". Even the truck drivers groups admit they don't do this as they were using it as a threat if they didn't get their way with the "increase" to 50mph (which, of course, they will also ignore)

Even making an exception and raising the limit on the A9 trucks would still be travelling slower than they do anywhere else and people will still overtake them because of that so I'm not entirely sure what the trial can hope to prove. You'd either need to go the whole hog and raise it to 60 or drop the limit for cars down to 50.

A 50 limit would half the differential between Tesco HGVs and cars at the legal 60mph and thereforen queues would take longer to form and drivers would be happier to sit at 50mph than 40mph in a queue. The number of reckless overtakes would hopefully be reduced.

After all 40mph is a speed limit used on many urban roads with frequent junctions, many cyclists, and footways with pedestrians. It's appropriate for roads the standard of the A9 in rural locations to have a 50mph HGV limit.

Average speed cameras? I've no objection. I drive motorways all over Scotland and the M77 is the easiest. Traffic bunches less and there is fewer speeding vehicles. That said I don't think the average speed cameras will do anything for dangerous overtakes. The difference with the A77 is that cars can pretty much drive at the legal limit. On single carriageway sections of the A9 drivers will still want to overtake if the are forced to drive for many miles at 20mph below their limit. I'd rather the cash for average cameras was put towards more dualling.

[quote=irc ]A 50 limit would half the differential between Tesco HGVs and cars at the legal 60mph and thereforen queues would take longer to form and drivers would be happier to sit at 50mph than 40mph in a queue. The number of reckless overtakes would hopefully be reduced.I can see your point but if you wanted to overtake an HGV wouldn't you prefer it was doing 40 rather than 50?

Reading some of the hair-raising posts has brought back various stomach-lurching, near death memories. The worst of which was on the A68, Southbound, past Jedburgh as you head into the National Park. I was sitting behind an estate of some kind - he was doing about 50 which was a little slower than I wanted to go but there hadn't been an overtaking opportunity so I just hung back and waited. It was pitch black.

Suddenly a car screamed up behind me, sat on my tail for a minute or so, then overtook on a blind, sharp corner with a blind dip. Out of this dip appeared a car travelling the other way, perhaps 20 feet away, though itseemed less. I slammed on the brakes and jjunked left onto the narrow verge, convinced there was about to be a massive crash.

Astoundingly, the overtaking car skewed in front of me - can't have been more than inches from being a mangled wreck. The other car was up on the opposite verge. The overtaker didn't even slow down and overtook the car in front of me without dropping any speed.

Really, properly shook up.

I can see your point but if you wanted to overtake an HGV wouldn't you prefer it was doing 40 rather than 50?

Yes, but as safe overtaking is often impossible for many miles I'd rather travel in a queue at 50 than 40. Wouldn't everyone?

If there is no oncoming traffic then 40 or 50mph makes little difference when overtaking.

"Truck drivers routinely obeying the 40mph limit". Even the truck drivers groups admit they don't do this as they were using it as a threat if they didn't get their way with the "increase" to 50mph (which, of course, they will also ignore)

I know they don't generally obey the 40 limit nationwide - but on the A9 commonly (or more commonly than I've seen anywhere else) they do.

Personally I think having any sort of differential in speed limits between vehicles on a single carriageway is anachronistic, its fine on dual carriageway, but in single carriageways I think the speed limit needs to be set at a lowest common denominator for all traffic. Theres no reason why the limit for trucks couldn't be 60 on the A9 - of all the single carriage way stretches in the UK its probably the one best suited to it - wide, gentle curves, decent slip roads, infrequent junctions, no pedestrian traffic to speak of - even a dedicated separate cycle lane for the whole length. But if you have a road where a truck would only travel safely at 40mph or 50mph because of the nature of the terrain, frequency of hazards like junctions and so on - then make that the limit for all.

[quote=maccruiskeen ]
I know they don't generally obey the 40 limit nationwide - but on the A9 commonly (or more commonly than I've seen anywhere else) they do.

http://www.cranleigh.co.uk/freight-industry-news/Freight-and-Haulage-General/Campaigning-lorry-drivers-plan-Christmas-chaos-on-A9/801667241/

UK freight drivers campaigning for an increased speed limit on the A9 in Scotland say they planning to protest on the road in the lead up to Christmas.
The move could cause major disruption at one of the busiest times of the year.
The protest, which will involve multiple lorries driving on the road at just 40mph, will be designed to show the public what traffic congestion will be like on the route if average speed cameras are fitted.

A great example of "change the law or we'll stick to it" 😆

UK freight drivers campaigning for an increased speed limit on the A9 in Scotland say they planning to protest on the road in the lead up to Christmas.

I'm talking about the last decade, at least, rather than the weeks before xmas