[Closed] CrossClimates on 4x4 estate ?

Good luck in finding some. Michelin have run out, Blackcircles have a few odd sizes left, Oponeo similarly.
You may find it easier going to your local tyre fitter!
I speak from the experience of trying to find some last week.

I can get them this week at local fitter, through BlackCircles. Just wondering whether to hit the button or hold off till the NewYear...

Got some on Friday for my S3. Feeling smug today. I had about 2.5mm of tread and thought I might as well change now.

(From local tyre place, same price as Black Circles)

Got a set on my a3 Quattro. Itching for some snow but so far apart from a couple of light dustings dartmoor has disappointed so far.

Had some pretty cold wet conditions though and it all seems pretty stable.

I have done the sensible thing and ordered them, through Blackcircles, fitted by local place, this Thursday. Better safe than sorry I guess.

I've got some on my A3 Quattro. Good in the snow today and quieter than proper all conditions tyres. Probably not as good as my wife's winter tyres but they're still in the back of the garage 🙁

What are they like for longevity ? Mine will be on an A6 2.0D Avant Quattro, I don’t drive fast or daft.

Last time I ordered via black circles the local place told me to go to them direct next time as it would be cheaper! Anyone else had this?

Last time I ordered via black circles the local place told me to go to them direct next time as it would be cheaper! Anyone else had this?

I have them on my Legacy and tries them in the snow for the first time today and I was a bit disappointed. Admittedly the snow was very wet and slushy but I didn’t feel massively stable. I guess they’re not true winter tyres so I shouldn’t expect too much.

If you regularly get snow then get something more biased towards snowy conditions, like Vredestein Quatracs or Nokian All Weather.
I've had the Quatracs in the snow and they're OK, but haven't needed the Nokians' snow plugging ability yet. They do though get in the top three of "proper" winter tyre tests and are more than adequate for year round use.

Both would be a night and day improvement over the Primacies in any foul conditions.

^^^^ don’t really get enough to merit those tyres IMO. I’m hoping that the CrossClimates and 4wd will be good enough for my needs. TBH the more likely getting stuck scenario will be other vehicles anyway...

Longevity seems fine. They're as good as Quadtracs, if you want more grip get full winter tyres.

Last time I ordered via black circles the local place told me to go to them direct next time as it would be cheaper! Anyone else had this

I was told the same, due to a margin applied by BC. Did 2 Pirelli Scorpion All seasons for me £9 cheaper a corner.

Last time I ordered via black circles the local place told me to go to them direct next time as it would be cheaper! Anyone else had this?

I haven't found black circles particularly cheap recently - most indy tyres places and the big chains (Kwit fit, etc) have been cheaper for me.

Running round on my Cross Climate Pluses today I found them to be pretty solid. Not as planted as my Conti 850s were, natch, but good enough that I feel having them on is the right choice for me.

I noticed the braking performance of those Michelin Primacy went off very rapidly towards the end of their life so new boots this time of year is probably a good idea. I automatically think of climbing and cornering grip when it comes to adverse conditions but braking is obviously important too. No doubt new all seasons will be superior to well worn all summer tyres in that respect.

Snow socks are a much better solution for when it snows

Snowsocks are great in proper deep snow but useless in anything else.

As far as longevity goes, my R17 Crossclimates are on
22k and down to 3-4mm. They also seem to have almost doubled in price since I bought the last set 18m ago

I just ordered mine through my local tyre place. Admittedly I know the owner, but all that means is I text him and he lets me know when to turn up. Was about £600 for 4 which was slightly better that online prices.
In the snowpocalypse in west London/ Surrey today they felt absolutely fine 😉

^^^ I looked around at pricing, they were a bit over £600 for four, fitted, everywhere I looked.

Got mine for £380 8)

That sound a bargain if a regular size !

Go for it. And do it now - once snow hits proper (which is starting just now) you might not find any.

We live just outside of Edinburgh and get much colder, icier and snowier than the city. Nokian weatherproofs seems to do the job on my 4x4, crossclimates are meant to be very similar.

Snow socks are a much better solution for when it snows

Fine for getting out of your street, not for general driving.

Snow socks aren't as good as Winter tyres for grip on snow, Funkydunk (check out Youtube comparisons). Winter tyres with chains are the best for deeper snow - and a car with plenty of ground clearance which is none of the Audis quoted above.

^^^ thanks, ordered and being fitted later this week, we are in East Kilbride, the Tundra of the West 🙂

Have snow socks, one pair unused and in the classifieds and other set kept in waiting for wife’s car, but as you say good for short distances only.

I have Nokian snow specific tyres (forget what) on the Prius, and WR G2s on the Passat which are billed as more of a slush tyre. So we took the Prius out today in the snow and it failed to get up the hill to my sister's. Rather than packed smooth snow it was very dense slippy snow on top of slush.

I'm thinking that outright snow performance isn't such a benefit in the UK, since even when it's snowy, it's not snow like in most cold places.

Winter tyres with chains are the best for deeper snow - and a car with plenty of ground clearance which is none of the Audis quoted above.

But with enough power you can play snowplough!

Thankfully snow deeper than about 3" is rare in the wilds of Berkshire.

i suspect my 190bhp diesel estate would fare slightly less well, even with the new tyres 😀

i miss my Nokian WRG2's. They did let me down once though trying to climb a north facing icy slope at Stourhead. Took me 3 attempts to get up. To be fair the gun dog trainer we were meeting couldnt believe we had got up the hill from that direction in a 2wd hatchback 😀

Running Michelin Latitude Cross's on the freelander. Only M&S rated, not 3 peak so not going to be chucking it around like I used to my Nokians. They are very much an all year AT tyre that is good on the road.

Fancied some cross climates but they don't do them in my size and I want to keep the nice wheels all year round. Would get some smaller wheels for winter specific tyres according the the manufacturer recommendation.

Mrs B runs Cross Climates on her auto X1 diesel.

They are fine in the snow but having swapped across to her winter wheels and tyre combo yesterday (Gumtree buy) the cheapo Nankang sv2 snow tyres are better on the snow and ice here at the moment.

But...the Nankangs are not so good in the wet or dry....

Fine for getting out of your street, not for general driving.

Ive done 20 miles with them on a BMW 3 series. I wouldn’t want to go over 50kph in any vehicle on uk roads if they are covered in snow (well ok I would but only in someone else’s car if I didn’t have to pay for damage)

Snow socks aren't as good as Winter tyres for grip on snow, Funkydunk (check out Youtube comparisons). Winter tyres with chains are the best for deeper snow

I’m talking about English ‘snow’ conditions here. No need to buy snow tyres for the one day a year it snows enough to use them. Totally get your point if you live in Norway/ alpine resort

^^^^ agree, hence why I’m asking about CrossClimates. They will be staying on the car all year round, west of Scotland. Average temperature for half the year probably sub 10, rest sub 15 !

I’m talking about English ‘snow’ conditions here. No need to buy snow tyres for the one day a year it snows enough to use them. Totally get your point if you live in Norway/ alpine resort

Here we go again...

I’m talking about English ‘snow’ conditions here. No need to buy snow tyres for the one day a year it snows enough to use them. Totally get your point if you live in Norway/ alpine resort

I know you're not serious and you have a confirmation bias for your snow socks but I'll bite. We are not talking about snow tyres here but all-season tyres or winter tyres. Neither are particularly optimised for snow, they are optimised for winter including the UK's winter. There is a clue in the name.

Serious question; thersa gazillion videos out there claiming BMW Xdrive is vastly inferior to Audi’s quattro system - any truth in this?

Winter tyres, snow tyres and cross climates are totally different.
Snow socks are pretty pants and you cant drive on tarmac with them or they will be destroyed very quickly. crossclimates are good because they are a jack of all trades and do a pretty good job at everything unless severe conditions.

Snow tyres aren’t needed in the uk but winter tyres are a good idea.

Here in Geneva on Friday night we went to the supermarket at around 6pm. By the time we came out at 7-30pm there had been about 6 inches of snow.

No problems, everyone just drove as normal with their winter tyres and no drama.
If that happened in the uk there would be mayhem.

Probably not as good as my wife's winter tyres

and tries them in the snow for the first time today and I was a bit disappointed.

if you want more grip get full winter tyres.

Nankang sv2 snow tyres are better on the snow and ice here at the moment.

Did you not read anyone’s comments nickfrog? I’m sure some may feel that all season tyres give them fractionally more grip, but for snow, living in England I will stick to snow socks for the 1 day a year of snow

Serious question; thersa gazillion videos out there claiming BMW Xdrive is vastly inferior to Audi’s quattro system - any truth in this?

Makes F all difference without the right tyres. Do X drive or quattro help your braking?

Makes F all difference without the right tyres.

i have nokian WRD4s on my viano. i watched someone across the road struggle to even move out of his parking spot yesterday, so after some tutting, i jumped in the bus and drove off down the street to show him where he was going wrong. and promptly got stuck myself. lol. serves me right. after realising the traction control was cutting ALL the power i switched it off and shot up the road firing snow out of the back. Nokians for winners, however if they had actually made crossclimates when i initially wanted to buy some tyres i would have got some, but they only released them a few months after i got the nokians. the next car is getting some for sure, fit and forget.

Cross Climates aren't a full winter, they are very good all rounders.

They are particularly good in the wet, traction on wet roads is absolutely brilliant. That fact alone makes them pretty much essential for Scotland!

I still carry socks if heavy snow is expected - I might as well they won't do me much good in the garage, but the 2-3 time I've used the Cross Climates in the snow they have been absolutely fine.

They wear ok, no better or worse than the Goodyear Eagles I had before

We had Cross Climates on the works BMW X1 when I worked at NEAS. Previously they’d ran a full Michelin winter. The winter was noticeably better in snow. The Cross Climate seemed to really pull towards standing water for some bizarre reason. The CC were better than summers in snow, but if you can run both summer and winters with a spare set of wheels, that’s what I’d go for.
I didn’t personally like the Xdrive system, it’s power transfer between axles seemed a bit odd. I had an Octavia 4x4 at the same time and it seemed smoother, more logical transfer.

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Probably not as good as my wife's winter tyres
and tries them in the snow for the first time today and I was a bit disappointed.

if you want more grip get full winter tyres.

Nankang sv2 snow tyres are better on the snow and ice here at the moment.

Did you not read anyone’s comments nickfrog? I’m sure some may feel that all season tyres give them fractionally more grip, but for snow, living in England I will stick to snow socks for the 1 day a year of snow

Can't you read at all ? You quoted someone else by the way. The irony.

You're talking about snow tyres but this thread is about WINTER tyres or ALL-SEASON tyres.

Snow socks are an absurd choice in the UK compared to winter tyres and all-season tyres, which are NOT just for snow, repeat NOT just for snow (actually their high level of friction in snow is only a side benefit). But I am not surprised you use socks if you can't comprehend the difference between tyres despite their names being pretty obvious.

Can I suggest you read this thread again slowly and from the start. It's all there.

Snow socks do help in some situations. In the 'I can't get out of my drive' situation.

I had to turn back on my winters yesterday, whereas the AA man seemed to be fine. He had to stop after we got down the hill to take the socks off though.

fifeandy - Member

Makes F all difference without the right tyres.

This is so true.
The year with the epic snow dad and I had to help a chap who had got his 4WD mazda 6.......

I keep seeing this year after year on here and I have to say it's contrary to my experience. Almost every car I've owned has been 4x4 or AWD and my wife's have all been front wheel drive. The AWD/4WD vehicles on any tyre have always been at least as good as the front wheel drive cars on all season and even winters (year before last).

I will caveat that by saying braking may be superior on winter/all season shod cars but I haven't done any kind of objective test to see. Control on slippery descents, whether down to engine braking or driven wheels also seemed superior on awd/4wd vehicles too.

YMMV.

Many real 4x4s in the countryside have mud/knobbly tyres on which seem quite good in snow.

I will caveat that by saying braking may be superior on winter/all season shod cars

It will be - just think about it a bit.

braking may be superior on winter/all season shod cars

As in stop in half the distance IME regardless of drive system. More than a 10% gradient and there's little cahce of stooping at all on Summer tyres as proved by drivers on the Col d'Aubisque every year - including drivers of BMW Xtat.

Control on slippery steep descents is down to tyre grip and use of the brakes. Nearly everything has ABS now so just brake as necessary with the clutch down as the speed comes off.

Trying to rely on the drive train at very low speeds is couter productive. If the engine braking is greater than grip it's worse than relying on the ABS. If you both brake and engine brake on black ice the odds are you'll stall the engine which leaves any driving wheels locked (all four on a 4x4) and in the time you take to realise what's happened and get the clutch down you've lost control.

Winter tyres, drive smoothly, leave lots of stopping distance, trust the ABS and have "clutch down" in the back of your mind in case you stall the engine.

molgrips - Member

It will be - just think about it a bit.

I'm not disputing it, just saying that I haven't deliberately skidded on snow and ice to compare but just leaving the house, going up or down a hill etc is done regularly.

Kryton57 - Member
Magazine review with embedded links to their website where the tyres were supplied by Black Circles, best online tyre supplier in their online tyre supplier test .

Edukator - Reformed Troll

Control on slippery steep descents is down to tyre grip and use of the brakes. Nearly everything has ABS now so just brake as necessary with the clutch down as the speed comes off.

But with low range I rarely have any need to brake when descending steep snowy icy stuff.

Trying to rely on the drive train at very low speeds is couter productive. If the engine braking is greater than grip it's worse than relying on the ABS. If you both brake and engine brake on black ice the odds are you'll stall the engine which leaves any driving wheels locked (all four on a 4x4) and in the time you take to realise what's happened and get the clutch down you've lost control.

Odds are you won't, especially in a big diesel, doubly so if it's got rev/idle control. Seems like you're trying to contrive a worst case scenario based on a panic reaction.

No, just based on experimenting every way of stopping on a steep road with verglas when I first got a car with ABS. I got the shortest stopping distances just braking with the clutch down. It seemed a good idea before venturing down the even steeper section lower down.

It was worth practicing because I learned to overcome the reflex of backing off the brake pedal on feeling the ABS rumble, and that stalling the engine locked the wheels even with ABS.

I'm just passing on my experience, people are obviously free to go out and learn for themselves, preferably where they won't be a nuisance or likely to do any harm to anyone or anything.

Having used AWD cars with both summer and winters and FWD with summers and winters, I’d take a FWD on winters over an AWD on summers. Better cornering and braking.

have "clutch down" in the back of your mind in case you stall the engine.

so how does that work with 4wd and an auto box ?

Edukator - Reformed Troll

No, just based on experimenting

Right, so when you were experimenting you were able to stall the car while you were engine braking, by braking. I'm not disputing that, just saying that you contrived a worst case scenario, then threw a panic reaction (braking) into the mix.

The thaw is on here so I doubt I'll be able to find a steep enough hill with enough ice to try that out but yesterday when I went up the mountains and into a forest to mess about I couldn't instigate a skid or spin unless I was deliberately trying. If it freezes tonight I'll probably try to stall by braking while engine braking just to see what happens.

have "clutch down" in the back of your mind in case you stall the engine.
so how does that work with 4wd and an auto box ?

It declutches for you.

I haven't deliberately skidded on snow and ice

You should - when it's safe. When conditions are challenging (or I've changed tyres or some similar) I find a stretch of deserted side street or lane or something and test my brakes, usually at 5mph or so. Very informative. I took the slushy corner turning into the dead end lane (no cars) this morning slightly quick (no more than 5mph) to test how the tyres would feel laterally on slush. Slid, but not too much.

On the subject of brakes, I'm with Edukator. Modern ABS and ESP can control all for wheels independently. Engine braking won't do that. I don't think you'll magically be able to extract more grip than the ABS.

I'm not disputing that, just saying that you contrived a worst case scenario, then threw a panic reaction (braking) into the mix.

No, I just started braking normally while descending at a controlled speed with engine braking. There's not much scope for panic when there's nothing that can go wrong. Just surprise that I'd managed to lock up, stall and glide along despite the ABS. I think it's worth warning people that on surfaces with very low grip if you use engine braking don't be surprised when the ABS doesn't prevent wheel locking through engine braking/stall.

Just surprise that I'd managed to lock up, stall and glide along despite the ABS. I think it's worth warning people that on surfaces with very low grip if you use engine braking don't be surprised when the ABS doesn't prevent wheel locking through engine braking/stall.

Well there's ABS and ESP, they are different. ESP should be able to detect that you've locked up all four wheels and are still moving.

molgrips - Member

I haven't deliberately skidded on snow and ice

You should - when it's safe. When conditions are challenging (or I've changed tyres or some similar) I find a stretch of deserted side street or lane or something and test my brakes,

So what I said originally was I haven't skidded to compare - meaning I haven't deliberately instigated a skid on the same road, in the same conditions, at the same speed in both vehicles then measure the distance.

What you are describing, skidding to gauge the grip I do all the time when conditions are sketchy. My wife absolutely loves it.

Edukator - Reformed Troll

I'm not disputing that, just saying that you contrived a worst case scenario, then threw a panic reaction (braking) into the mix.

No, I just started braking normally while descending at a controlled speed with engine braking. There's not much scope for panic when there's nothing that can go wrong.

Yes, I'm saying you did something you didn't need to do which provoked a reaction that wouldn't normally occur. I'm not saying you panicked, I'm saying that the likely reason someone would jab the brakes on a slow controlled descent would be panic.

You're distorting what I've said Jimjam, you say "jab the brakes", I said:

I just started braking normally while descending at a controlled speed with engine braking.

So why did you bother braking if you were descending at a controlled speed with engine braking?

Got the winter tyres/wheels out of the back of the garage and fitted them to my wife's car today. Not a back to back comparison but they seem slightly better than the Cross Climates, as expected.

so the Blackcircles guy phoned....they are out of CrossClimates in my size...

So they are doing me the newer version, CrossClimate+ at same price, same fitting appointment... 🙂

Wooooooooooo + aye. That’s fancy.

You’ll have to do an in-depth review next winter when it snows again 🙂
Until then we can enjoy a thread of bickering about superhuman driving ability , car control and safety tips.

^^^ hasn't snowed yet here.... 🙂

Crossclimate + were cheaper than the older Crossclimates in my size at Blackcircles...

Until then we can enjoy a thread of bickering about superhuman driving ability , car control and safety tips.

People should remember that in a lot of modern cars, to properly turn the traction control off in your RWD V8 you'll need to press [i]and hold[/i] the button.

P20 - Member
Having used AWD cars with both summer and winters and FWD with summers and winters, I’d take a FWD on winters over an AWD on summers. Better cornering and braking.

Exactly. Create the friction first at the contact patch and only then can you optimise its tractive distribution with 4wd if you really want the cherry on the cake and don't mind transporting all the additional gubbins all year round.

No idea about snow but I put CrossClimates on our old RWD camper van to help it get out of muddy fields and improve general handling/braking in wet conditions (20 year old brakes need all the help they can get). They seem to roll better and feel more surefooted in less than perfect conditions when compared to the previous tyres, to the point I aim to replace the tyres on the STW favourite Octy vRS with them when the current tyres start to run low.

Until then we can enjoy a thread of bickering about superhuman driving ability , car control and safety tips.

😆

I had Pirelli P6000s on my old Jag which, with their appallingly low levels of grip on all surfaces, gave excellent low speed drifting characteristics.
Car park rallying in the snow was a thing of beauty. 🙂

You don’t drive fast but tyres lasting 15k ? We did 20k pa in ours and changed less than once a year if I recall correctly

Anyway good move on the cross climates imho

I had Pirelli P6000s on my old Jag which, with their appallingly low levels of grip on all surfaces

used to be standard fit on 306's in the 90's. They were generally referred to as "ditch finders"

Suburban my A6 Quattro would go up steep snow covered roads with standard Conti’s. All seasons woukd have been even better.

Kryton I admit a bias Audi over BMW anyway but Audi have been using and developing Quattro for the longest time bs BMW who are later to the game and imo driven by marketing conerns. The wife wants an X1 and I am tryibg to put her off.

Funky snow socks are a pita - start on snow covered small road (socks on) get to swept main road (socks off) back to small road (socks on)

All seasons are great when its cold amd wet - we get plenty of cold amd wet in the UK

Ok. Audi quattro's now on my list. 😀

RS6?

lol, more like a 2nd hand Allroad...

You don’t drive fast but tyres lasting 15k ? We did 20k pa in ours and changed less than once a year if I recall correctly

As an aside, I’m just back in, temp is minus 1 with lots of frost, I was struggling to get it to lose traction around the frosty roads in the housing estate even when holding it in 2nd on the paddles. Yes, Quattro is good 😀

I had tried to get CrossClimates on it from new but Audi didn’t want to play that game, and as it’s the main family car I don’t want to compromise on safety. Same will happen when wife’s Q2 needs new tyres but that’s a long time away.

Cross Climates are good summer tyres that happen to have a pattern that works in snow. A good multi season tyre has a softer compound that stays more pliable in colder temperatures and more sipes, that’s what I would go for.

Edukator - go out and test your ABS again.

Very gently squeeze the pedal and your ABS will lock up and stay locked. Jump on them and the ABS will activate.

In snow, ABS doesn’t stop as quickly as locking up, so the systems are designed to be able to lock up. That’s not to say ABS won’t slow you down or be safer as you can still sort of steer.

Most modern ABS systems have an interlink to the electronic throttle. Under engine braking situations the ABS control unit can demand a slightly increased throttle to prevent lockup or stalling.

With bosch's drive mode features making their way onto more and more cars and motorcycles, the way ABS intervenes can be altered depending on the conditions. As FunkyDunc says, when offroad or on snow you need to build a wedge of material at the leading edge of the wheel. Snow or offroad modes allow this to be accommodated - so the ABS will kick in much later on.

Most 4wd systems spend most of their time in 2wd mode. The haldex5 system on our kodiaq, as used on most of the VW group cars, including a lot of "quattro" branded audis*, certainly does. I really doubt that it would connect the back axle up under engine braking as it needs a significant speed differential before activating the clutches. Especially given the dopey way it pushes power to the rear wheels when being booted. The haldex4 system in our yeti was far quicker to respond in that respect. Even "permananet 4x4" systems like you might find on an old land rover are nothing of the sort any more, with a centre diff replaced / augmented with a electronically controlled clutch pack of some form.

I looked at crossclimates for the kodiaq and previously for our yeti. But they just didn't make sense economically. They were well over £100 more expensive than a comparable set of nokian WRs or michelin alpins. £100 will easily buy a good set of second hand rims resulting in a far less compromised setup. They also got a right slating by ADAC in their winter tyre test when they were released last year - rating them below some dubious Chinese ditchfinders.

*do they make anything with their original design of a torsen centre diff any more?