[Closed] CrossClimates on 4x4 estate ?

Snow socks do help in some situations. In the 'I can't get out of my drive' situation.

I had to turn back on my winters yesterday, whereas the AA man seemed to be fine. He had to stop after we got down the hill to take the socks off though.

fifeandy - Member

Makes F all difference without the right tyres.

This is so true.
The year with the epic snow dad and I had to help a chap who had got his 4WD mazda 6.......

I keep seeing this year after year on here and I have to say it's contrary to my experience. Almost every car I've owned has been 4x4 or AWD and my wife's have all been front wheel drive. The AWD/4WD vehicles on any tyre have always been at least as good as the front wheel drive cars on all season and even winters (year before last).

I will caveat that by saying braking may be superior on winter/all season shod cars but I haven't done any kind of objective test to see. Control on slippery descents, whether down to engine braking or driven wheels also seemed superior on awd/4wd vehicles too.

YMMV.

Many real 4x4s in the countryside have mud/knobbly tyres on which seem quite good in snow.

I will caveat that by saying braking may be superior on winter/all season shod cars

It will be - just think about it a bit.

braking may be superior on winter/all season shod cars

As in stop in half the distance IME regardless of drive system. More than a 10% gradient and there's little cahce of stooping at all on Summer tyres as proved by drivers on the Col d'Aubisque every year - including drivers of BMW Xtat.

Control on slippery steep descents is down to tyre grip and use of the brakes. Nearly everything has ABS now so just brake as necessary with the clutch down as the speed comes off.

Trying to rely on the drive train at very low speeds is couter productive. If the engine braking is greater than grip it's worse than relying on the ABS. If you both brake and engine brake on black ice the odds are you'll stall the engine which leaves any driving wheels locked (all four on a 4x4) and in the time you take to realise what's happened and get the clutch down you've lost control.

Winter tyres, drive smoothly, leave lots of stopping distance, trust the ABS and have "clutch down" in the back of your mind in case you stall the engine.

molgrips - Member

It will be - just think about it a bit.

I'm not disputing it, just saying that I haven't deliberately skidded on snow and ice to compare but just leaving the house, going up or down a hill etc is done regularly.

Kryton57 - Member
Magazine review with embedded links to their website where the tyres were supplied by Black Circles, best online tyre supplier in their online tyre supplier test .

Edukator - Reformed Troll

Control on slippery steep descents is down to tyre grip and use of the brakes. Nearly everything has ABS now so just brake as necessary with the clutch down as the speed comes off.

But with low range I rarely have any need to brake when descending steep snowy icy stuff.

Trying to rely on the drive train at very low speeds is couter productive. If the engine braking is greater than grip it's worse than relying on the ABS. If you both brake and engine brake on black ice the odds are you'll stall the engine which leaves any driving wheels locked (all four on a 4x4) and in the time you take to realise what's happened and get the clutch down you've lost control.

Odds are you won't, especially in a big diesel, doubly so if it's got rev/idle control. Seems like you're trying to contrive a worst case scenario based on a panic reaction.

No, just based on experimenting every way of stopping on a steep road with verglas when I first got a car with ABS. I got the shortest stopping distances just braking with the clutch down. It seemed a good idea before venturing down the even steeper section lower down.

It was worth practicing because I learned to overcome the reflex of backing off the brake pedal on feeling the ABS rumble, and that stalling the engine locked the wheels even with ABS.

I'm just passing on my experience, people are obviously free to go out and learn for themselves, preferably where they won't be a nuisance or likely to do any harm to anyone or anything.

Having used AWD cars with both summer and winters and FWD with summers and winters, I’d take a FWD on winters over an AWD on summers. Better cornering and braking.

have "clutch down" in the back of your mind in case you stall the engine.

so how does that work with 4wd and an auto box ?

Edukator - Reformed Troll

No, just based on experimenting

Right, so when you were experimenting you were able to stall the car while you were engine braking, by braking. I'm not disputing that, just saying that you contrived a worst case scenario, then threw a panic reaction (braking) into the mix.

The thaw is on here so I doubt I'll be able to find a steep enough hill with enough ice to try that out but yesterday when I went up the mountains and into a forest to mess about I couldn't instigate a skid or spin unless I was deliberately trying. If it freezes tonight I'll probably try to stall by braking while engine braking just to see what happens.

have "clutch down" in the back of your mind in case you stall the engine.
so how does that work with 4wd and an auto box ?

It declutches for you.

I haven't deliberately skidded on snow and ice

You should - when it's safe. When conditions are challenging (or I've changed tyres or some similar) I find a stretch of deserted side street or lane or something and test my brakes, usually at 5mph or so. Very informative. I took the slushy corner turning into the dead end lane (no cars) this morning slightly quick (no more than 5mph) to test how the tyres would feel laterally on slush. Slid, but not too much.

On the subject of brakes, I'm with Edukator. Modern ABS and ESP can control all for wheels independently. Engine braking won't do that. I don't think you'll magically be able to extract more grip than the ABS.

I'm not disputing that, just saying that you contrived a worst case scenario, then threw a panic reaction (braking) into the mix.

No, I just started braking normally while descending at a controlled speed with engine braking. There's not much scope for panic when there's nothing that can go wrong. Just surprise that I'd managed to lock up, stall and glide along despite the ABS. I think it's worth warning people that on surfaces with very low grip if you use engine braking don't be surprised when the ABS doesn't prevent wheel locking through engine braking/stall.

Just surprise that I'd managed to lock up, stall and glide along despite the ABS. I think it's worth warning people that on surfaces with very low grip if you use engine braking don't be surprised when the ABS doesn't prevent wheel locking through engine braking/stall.

Well there's ABS and ESP, they are different. ESP should be able to detect that you've locked up all four wheels and are still moving.

molgrips - Member

I haven't deliberately skidded on snow and ice

You should - when it's safe. When conditions are challenging (or I've changed tyres or some similar) I find a stretch of deserted side street or lane or something and test my brakes,

So what I said originally was I haven't skidded to compare - meaning I haven't deliberately instigated a skid on the same road, in the same conditions, at the same speed in both vehicles then measure the distance.

What you are describing, skidding to gauge the grip I do all the time when conditions are sketchy. My wife absolutely loves it.

Edukator - Reformed Troll

I'm not disputing that, just saying that you contrived a worst case scenario, then threw a panic reaction (braking) into the mix.

No, I just started braking normally while descending at a controlled speed with engine braking. There's not much scope for panic when there's nothing that can go wrong.

Yes, I'm saying you did something you didn't need to do which provoked a reaction that wouldn't normally occur. I'm not saying you panicked, I'm saying that the likely reason someone would jab the brakes on a slow controlled descent would be panic.

You're distorting what I've said Jimjam, you say "jab the brakes", I said:

I just started braking normally while descending at a controlled speed with engine braking.

So why did you bother braking if you were descending at a controlled speed with engine braking?

Got the winter tyres/wheels out of the back of the garage and fitted them to my wife's car today. Not a back to back comparison but they seem slightly better than the Cross Climates, as expected.

so the Blackcircles guy phoned....they are out of CrossClimates in my size...

So they are doing me the newer version, CrossClimate+ at same price, same fitting appointment... 🙂

Wooooooooooo + aye. That’s fancy.

You’ll have to do an in-depth review next winter when it snows again 🙂
Until then we can enjoy a thread of bickering about superhuman driving ability , car control and safety tips.

^^^ hasn't snowed yet here.... 🙂

Crossclimate + were cheaper than the older Crossclimates in my size at Blackcircles...

Until then we can enjoy a thread of bickering about superhuman driving ability , car control and safety tips.

People should remember that in a lot of modern cars, to properly turn the traction control off in your RWD V8 you'll need to press [i]and hold[/i] the button.

P20 - Member
Having used AWD cars with both summer and winters and FWD with summers and winters, I’d take a FWD on winters over an AWD on summers. Better cornering and braking.

Exactly. Create the friction first at the contact patch and only then can you optimise its tractive distribution with 4wd if you really want the cherry on the cake and don't mind transporting all the additional gubbins all year round.

No idea about snow but I put CrossClimates on our old RWD camper van to help it get out of muddy fields and improve general handling/braking in wet conditions (20 year old brakes need all the help they can get). They seem to roll better and feel more surefooted in less than perfect conditions when compared to the previous tyres, to the point I aim to replace the tyres on the STW favourite Octy vRS with them when the current tyres start to run low.

Until then we can enjoy a thread of bickering about superhuman driving ability , car control and safety tips.

😆

I had Pirelli P6000s on my old Jag which, with their appallingly low levels of grip on all surfaces, gave excellent low speed drifting characteristics.
Car park rallying in the snow was a thing of beauty. 🙂

You don’t drive fast but tyres lasting 15k ? We did 20k pa in ours and changed less than once a year if I recall correctly

Anyway good move on the cross climates imho

I had Pirelli P6000s on my old Jag which, with their appallingly low levels of grip on all surfaces

used to be standard fit on 306's in the 90's. They were generally referred to as "ditch finders"

Suburban my A6 Quattro would go up steep snow covered roads with standard Conti’s. All seasons woukd have been even better.

Kryton I admit a bias Audi over BMW anyway but Audi have been using and developing Quattro for the longest time bs BMW who are later to the game and imo driven by marketing conerns. The wife wants an X1 and I am tryibg to put her off.

Funky snow socks are a pita - start on snow covered small road (socks on) get to swept main road (socks off) back to small road (socks on)

All seasons are great when its cold amd wet - we get plenty of cold amd wet in the UK

Ok. Audi quattro's now on my list. 😀

RS6?

lol, more like a 2nd hand Allroad...

You don’t drive fast but tyres lasting 15k ? We did 20k pa in ours and changed less than once a year if I recall correctly

As an aside, I’m just back in, temp is minus 1 with lots of frost, I was struggling to get it to lose traction around the frosty roads in the housing estate even when holding it in 2nd on the paddles. Yes, Quattro is good 😀

I had tried to get CrossClimates on it from new but Audi didn’t want to play that game, and as it’s the main family car I don’t want to compromise on safety. Same will happen when wife’s Q2 needs new tyres but that’s a long time away.

Cross Climates are good summer tyres that happen to have a pattern that works in snow. A good multi season tyre has a softer compound that stays more pliable in colder temperatures and more sipes, that’s what I would go for.

Edukator - go out and test your ABS again.

Very gently squeeze the pedal and your ABS will lock up and stay locked. Jump on them and the ABS will activate.

In snow, ABS doesn’t stop as quickly as locking up, so the systems are designed to be able to lock up. That’s not to say ABS won’t slow you down or be safer as you can still sort of steer.

Most modern ABS systems have an interlink to the electronic throttle. Under engine braking situations the ABS control unit can demand a slightly increased throttle to prevent lockup or stalling.

With bosch's drive mode features making their way onto more and more cars and motorcycles, the way ABS intervenes can be altered depending on the conditions. As FunkyDunc says, when offroad or on snow you need to build a wedge of material at the leading edge of the wheel. Snow or offroad modes allow this to be accommodated - so the ABS will kick in much later on.

Most 4wd systems spend most of their time in 2wd mode. The haldex5 system on our kodiaq, as used on most of the VW group cars, including a lot of "quattro" branded audis*, certainly does. I really doubt that it would connect the back axle up under engine braking as it needs a significant speed differential before activating the clutches. Especially given the dopey way it pushes power to the rear wheels when being booted. The haldex4 system in our yeti was far quicker to respond in that respect. Even "permananet 4x4" systems like you might find on an old land rover are nothing of the sort any more, with a centre diff replaced / augmented with a electronically controlled clutch pack of some form.

I looked at crossclimates for the kodiaq and previously for our yeti. But they just didn't make sense economically. They were well over £100 more expensive than a comparable set of nokian WRs or michelin alpins. £100 will easily buy a good set of second hand rims resulting in a far less compromised setup. They also got a right slating by ADAC in their winter tyre test when they were released last year - rating them below some dubious Chinese ditchfinders.

*do they make anything with their original design of a torsen centre diff any more?

andyl - Member

[Pirelli P6000s] used to be standard fit on 306's in the 90's. They were generally referred to as "ditch finders"

They were meant to work better on heavier cars.
They didn't.

Winter tyres and summer tyres (swapping when appropriate) > cross climates.

Thread done.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/roads-full-of-men-with-strong-but-conflicting-opinions-about-how-to-drive-on-ice-20171211140691

Kryton you don’t need an AllRoad unless you want the very marginal increase in ground clearence. Just get a normal Quattro and try and avoid the RS temptation

@hot_fiat interesting post re the systems

I've got Crossclimates on a Prius. A very good compromise. Driven to France and Alps and they've been great. Much more grip in cold weather as well. Not a bad summer tyre either. I would have thought for most people in UK they're ideal rather than having two sets.

Better traction than a XC90 4x4 with summers.

*do they make anything with their original design of a torsen centre diff any more?

Those with transverse engines (S3, RS3, etc) will have some form of Haldex system.

Apparently...

4 degrees, heavy rain and loads of standing water across dartmoor this morning. I tried really hard to upset these tyres but they were faultless.

Winter tyres and summer tyres (swapping when appropriate) > cross climates.

I don't think anyone's denying that. However, for a lot of the UK where temperate, damp weather is more of an issue than genuine cold 'winter' driving the CrossClimates make for a good year round tyre.