[Closed] in the Guardian

My wife is also from outside the UK, although she holds a BNO I have looked at getting her a full passport but TBH it doesn't seem to be worth the effort to get it as she is not that bothered.

As a British citizen, I had the expectation that marrying someone from abroad would automatically give them the right to become a British citizen

Is this the article where the lady in question went to get her passport request processed but missed out a load of documentation that was requested and is unhappy that she is being asked to re-apply?

Not sure who the are in the guardian that you refer to but from reading that article the only I could identify were the people working at the home office who rejected the application. Utterly ludicrous and the only thing they didn't comply with was sending in their passports which they needed but sending in solicitor approved photo copies instead which were meant to be acceptable.

the only I could identify were the people working at the home office who rejected the application.

That was pretty much the impression I got. And it's not unreasonable to expect that you'd be eligible for British citizenship automatically if you've been living in the UK for 24 years with a British husband and two British kids.

A somewhat misleading headline. Woman has right to live in the UK as an EU citizen. Decides to apply for citizenship of the UK, as at some point in the future it may leave the EU. Someone processing it cocks up. Process for dealing with cock-ups is poor.

Alternative headline "Government department makes mistake, lacks effective complaint procedure", or "Law on spouses from EU countries may need changing if UK leaves EU".

I sympathise with the woman in the story. My Mrs is Spanish so we are naturally worried about all this Brexit bol***ks. More so, if the shoe is on the other foot i.e. we both want to move to Spain some day, UK citizens may find it harder to live and work in the EU due to punitive immigration rules.

I take it you're referring to the in the Home Office?

I hadn't realised it was so difficult to access the UK officially?
I wonder if Frau Mehr is worried yet?

As for the woman I would presume she already has indefinite leave to remain?

Those Home Office appeal procedures seem very Kafkaeque. 😯

The person who wrote "As you appear to have no alternative basis of stay in the United Kingdom you should now make arrangements to leave” to a Dutch national seems the most appropriate target for any criticism...

Just a minute - did the Home Office not consult Jamba? He has repeatedly said that there is no problem for EU people such as his wife to stay in the UK.

why has the thread title been edited? censorship on stw shocker!

Special snowflake in "thinking the rules don't apply to her" shocker

[img] [/img]

She was told the reason for the rejection was because she had not included her original passport.

In her complaint, Hawkins points out that she included a solicitor-approved photocopy of her passport – which is permissible under the rules – plus a covering letter to explain why she could not be without her passport for the four to six months it takes to process.

She said the application form included a box for reasons for not including a valid passport as long as it was due to circumstances beyond your control. “Clearly my father dying did not qualify in the Home Office’s eyes as beyond my control,” said Hawkins.

Special snowflake in "thinking the rules don't apply to her" shocker

In order for 'snowflake' edgy buzz meme to be valid I take it that she also had neither her EEA card or a valid copy of Passport?

Politicking, so dishonest isn't it? It's like a co-dependent triangle of hate between journalists and readers. By the time the full facts are in nobody cares much because we're all having too much fun feeding our prejudice with the same old stereotypes and strawmen.

Lifer, read the rules, that applies for applications on the basis of long residence, but as is clearly stated above does not extend to applicants from EEA/Switzerland

You're also welcome to look for the bit permitting copies, which seems to only allow those certified via registry office.

Her solicitor is shit too 😆

Is that the rule that says:
"Your passports OR say why you are unable to provide one on page 24"

The complicated thing actually seems to be that there is no obvious route for an EU citizen in the UK to safeguard their status - they are in a Catch 22 situation where their status right now does not provide a clear means to apply, but apart from saying Brexit means Brexit the govt has not clarified what their future status will be, or how they should prepare.

why has the thread title been edited? censorship on stw shocker!

My post has also been edited to remove the word that was in the title. The word which I beleive also means idiot. Wouldn't have thought it was a banned word but why hasn't it been stared out rather than just removed as my post makes no sense now

"the word" has a specific medical meaning although that condition's pretty much non-existent in nations with adequate prenatal care

I'm fairly sure that "idiot", "moron" etc also can be used literally to imply specific levels of impairment - purely in terms of intellectual development

noun
1.
informaloffensive
a stupid person (used as a general term of abuse).
2.
MEDICINEdated
a person who is physically deformed and has learning difficulties because of congenital thyroid deficiency.

well I did not know that. but if it used in the first sense and everyone reading it pretty much believes that's it's only meaning and would likely never use it as an insult referring to the 2nd definition it seems a bit heavy handed to edit it out.

While we're on words.... can I propose that anyone using the term 'snowflake', as it now seems to be the default term of abuse to dismiss the opinions of anyone to the left of Nick Griffin, be taken from this place to a book club in Islington where they be force-fed organic quinoa and fairtrade yoghurt until they explode?

I'm friends with a Kuwaiti refugee currently living in Scotland with his brother. My friend is in the process of having his asylum claim denied, even though his brother, who came with him, has had his claim accepted. My friend receives a letter every week telling him he is going to be deported, either to France (who will send him back to Kuwait) or to Germany (who will send him back to Kuwait).
If he is sent back to Kuwait, he will likely be arrested, tortured and probably killed. His crime? Being born a Bidoun.
Being well versed in the Kafkaesque mess that is UK asylum rules, I have assured my friend that there is little likelihood of him actually being deported and that this is the Home Office's way of trying to make people leave without taking responsibility for them.
Needless to say, my friend is very depressed, as would anyone be receiving weekly threats to be sent to their death. He is one of thousands of people in the UK right now who are faced with such terrors, where are their Grauniad headlines?
Or does it only matter when white people's lives are affected?

Honestly, our immigration system is a beaurocratic nightmare. A couple of administrative cock ups happening to a Dutch lady pale into insignificance compared to the deliberate abuse of that beurocracy to harrass and intimidate the weakest, most vulnerable people in our country.

Sounds par for the course in this country at the moment. Perish the thought we might convey to the outside world anything other than insular, mean-spirited and small-minded nastiness.

Perish the thought we might convey to the outside world anything other than insular, mean-spirited and small-minded nastiness

Living outside of the UK that is not the impression I see that the UK gives to the outside world, the UK seems to be incredibly fair compared for example where I currently reside?

Give it another 6 months....

Sounds par for the course in this country at the moment. Perish the thought we might convey to the outside world anything other than insular, mean-spirited and small-minded nastiness.

That's a shame, those qualities were the only ones I could think of when trying to compile a list of 'things Britain is actually a world-leader in'.

[url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/how-many-non-british-based-teams-have-won-an-f1-championship ]http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/how-many-non-british-based-teams-have-won-an-f1-championship[/url]

Try not to choke whilst swallowing that with a mug of your chosen artisan negativity.

Try not to choke whilst swallowing that with a mug of your chosen artisan negativity.

OK - just as soon as I work out what the hell it's got to do with anything.

Needless to say, my friend is very depressed, as would anyone be receiving weekly threats to be sent to their death. He is one of thousands of people in the UK right now who are faced with such terrors, where are their Grauniad headlines?

Fill your boots: https://www.google.es/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=site:theguardian.com+uk+asylum+seeker+claim

Special snowflake

Yeah yeah. This is just an expression used by misanthropic, authoritarian virgins to refer to anyone who isn't a misanthropic, authoritarian virgin.

I stand corrected, mogrim, never really been a big reader of newspapers.
I think my point kinda still stands. I really don't foresee a situation where a Dutch woman, married to an English man, with English children, who has lived in England for decades will ever face deportation. Yes, it's shit for her having to fill out a few forms and make several appeals, but that's all part of being British, I mean, has she ever had to ring BT customer services? 😉

+1 Fin, great post.

We've started our next marriage vusa applicatiin akready, which is due in 6 minths. We're going so far as to chase down housing authority building plans as evidence that our flat meets the housing requirements.

There is also a one day application for various visa applications, if they do an expidited permanent residencecy application then had the woman paid a few hundred quid extra she could have gone in personally and had the application approved in a matter of few hours - allowing her to provide a passport.

DrJ - Member

OK - just as soon as I work out what the hell it's got to do with anything.

You can't relate it to the post immediately before it?
No?
<scratches "[i]basic comprehension[/i]" off dannyh's list>

😆

My understanding.

She did NOT apply for citizenship as if she get's a British passport the Dutch require her to give up her citizenship. I can understand her not wanting to do that.

Having to stand in line in the scenario that in 2019 she'll have to wait a bit as Europeans won't have priority access. As the OP says imagine the ski-weekend hassles daaaarling.

Folks you have at least a year to think about this, nothing will change till 2019 at the earliest. My ex-wife stayed in the US for 18 months without formal approval, it's really not a big deal.

If you take a step back from the specifics of her case, it says a lot about the generally dysfuncitonal nature of the Home Office- it's a byzantine process in which errors are commonplace and there's no effective way to deal with them, a killer combination. It's taken years of hard work to get the place running as badly as it does. And this is just business as usual- where's the capability to deal with challenges of brexit?

Having to stand in line in the scenario that in 2019 she'll have to wait a bit as Europeans won't have priority access. As the OP says imagine the ski-weekend hassles daaaarling.

Yes that's tough. What's tougher is not being able to work, get health care, or retire with your family - none of which are guaranteed as things stand.

My ex-wife stayed in the US for 18 months without formal approval, it's really not a big deal.

Aah yes - anecdotes from a (known unreliable) bloke on the internet - a perfect basis for decision. What if this person had wanted to work, or had fallen ill, or drive a car, or get insurance?

where's the capability to deal with challenges of brexit?

Non-existent, as you well know. Without some radical change in the application process there will be a backlog of literally decades. I am hoping that at some point common sense will prevail and there will be some sort of simplification. Whether that actually helps MrsJ or not remains to be seen.

I really don't foresee a situation where a Dutch woman, married to an English man, with English children, who has lived in England for decades will ever face deportation

You may not foresee it, but that doesn't mean that it isn't going to happen, either to her, or to people in less favourable circumstances. Many EU countries already have quite strict rules about "family reunification" and the papers in, for example, Denmark have lots of stories about non-EU spouses unable to live with their husband or wife in Denmark. These things happen You don't know about them because you haven't been exposed to that situation.

You don't know about them because you haven't been exposed to that situation.

How do you know?

How do you know?

If you had been exposed to the situation, then you'd know. Simples.

I've spent a lot of time studying immigration systems, both at home and abroad. I work with a lot of immigrants, both from the EU and further afield.
In my spare time I help out refugees, both in a practical and advisory capacity.
I've had first hand experience of helping people negotiate our ridiculous visa system. Yes, it's a worrying time to be an EU citizen in the UK right now, but we're talking about a system which couldn't deport an extremist cleric for years. I sincerely doubt that a woman with her whole family resident here is in any danger. After all, were leaving the EU, not repealing the HRA. At least not yet...

@fin25 - respect for that (seriously, not sarcastically). I think you're right that such a person will not be deported. What is more likely is that someone who has not been here so long, does not have a secure job, will face a lot of difficulties in keeping a normal stable family life than they experienced before, all for nothing.

What is more likely is that someone who has not been here so long, does not have a secure job, will face a lot of difficulties in keeping a normal stable family life than they experienced before, all for nothing.

I'm afraid you might be right there.

"Danger of deportation" isn't really the point. What if she loses access to healthcare, can't travel as required by her job (let alone holidays or visiting relatives), can't work legally or even rent somewhere to live? None of these require a govt department to act efficiently, they just require her (and others in a range of roughly similar situations) to fall on the wrong side of some arbitrary and vindictive rule change.

<scratches "basic comprehension" off dannyh's list>

Why? That was DrJ's post, not mine.

10/10 for stupid fail whilst trying to be a smartarse awarded to sbob.

[img] [/img]

Yes, it's a worrying time to be an EU citizen in the UK right now,

Its also a worrying time to be a UK citizen in the EU. I see no reason to guarantee automatic residency to EU nationals without a reciprocal arrangement for UK citizens in the EU. Hopefully this will be sorted out in due course but I don't see the alternative of filling in a form and sending in a valid passport to be too onerous a task.

Also in the same guardian article

It said since October, applications could be submitted online and it had also launched an express passport check-in service in 58 local councils around the country, including one 10 miles from Hawkins’s home.

So she couldn't be bothered to travel 10 miles to get her passport verified but could be bothered to contact the Guardian.

but I don't see the alternative of filling in a form and sending in a valid passport to be too onerous a task.

The onerousness of the task is a minor issue - the major issue is the criteria for eligibility of the applicant and the outcome of the procedure.

Also in the same guardian article

"It said since October, applications could be submitted online and it had also launched an express passport check-in service in 58 local councils around the country, including one 10 miles from Hawkins’s home."

So she couldn't be bothered to travel 10 miles to get her passport verified but could be bothered to contact the Guardian.

Also in the same Guardian article, it says she applied 4 months before October, so that option was not available to her.

As far as I can see she failed eligibility as she did not provide the required documentation and did not have her documentation validated as required.

My wife, also not from the UK, has not worked for 12 years, as our son is special needs. She volunteers at the CAB as an advisor and we have been told that as she has not contributed National Insurance then she is not eligible for citizenship.

So, to all those Brexit voters: thanks, thanks a bunch.

binners - Member
While we're on words.... can I propose that anyone using the term 'snowflake', as it now seems to be the default term of abuse to dismiss the opinions of anyone to the left of Nick Griffin, be taken from this place to a book club in Islington where they be force-fed organic quinoa and fairtrade yoghurt until they explode?

fragile individuals who faint away at the first sign of anything that might offend their delicate sensibilities.

But this is just a completely subjective caricature, used as a childish rebuttal by those who think that bigotry should go unchallenged.

It's now been adopted by the Daily Mail and it's odious readership to label anyone who doesn't agree with Nigel that Brexit is the best thing EVER, that we should deport all bloody foreigners and reinstate hanging immediately, but who doesn't hold a position that would elevate them to the status of Enemies of the People.

Basically, ownership of a social conscience/not being an utter **** = snowflake

But this is just a completely subjective caricature, used as a childish rebuttal by those who think that bigotry should go unchallenged.

And ironically it's most likely to be used by people who think the BBC sacking Jeremy Clarkson was an assault on their way of life.

😀

Perhaps the snowflake metaphor is quite apt. After all, each one is unique, incredibly transient and vulnerable on its own, yet capable of devastating force when combined with millions of its ilk.......

[img] [/img]

I think I'll go found a cult.

Will there be free sneakers?

No free sneakers I'm afraid.

I'm wondering when sbob will be back to this thread to explain how the thriving and mass-employment generating formula one industry is going to insulate us from the effects of last June's reversion to insular pettiness. I can't wait, I don't like my current career all that much, so I'm looking forward to getting one of the millions of Formula One jobs that are going to be created.

I played a bit of golf when I was younger. I eagled a couple of holes once. Must mean that I can go round any course in 36 under par by sbob's reasoning. How I am not now a forty time Major winner is a mystery to me.

Or is the premise based on unrepresentative data, and therefore, erm, bullshit?

Also, "artisan negativity" 😆 where on earth did that little pseudo-witty gobbit originate? Not original, surely.

Basically, ownership of a social conscience/not being an utter **** = snowflake

However, as we see from the thread title change, certain words are often offensive to those who, unfortunately, suffer from medical conditions whose names have become used as common pejoratives. So, isn't it a [b]good[/b] thing that alternative pejorative terms have come into use just to describe a certain subset of vociferous quasi-political activist, all too often those trying to prove a point from the outset, without offending the disabled?

It's enough to make you weep with pride over the ever evolving English language that we gave to the world.

Well, my grammar and spelling were worse than usual in the last post - blame my smart phone. 😀

Apologies for the use of the word "cretin" - if it actually offended someone.

My wife is Danish and has lived in the UK for nearly 20 years and yet she is still scared of not being able to stay. Stories like this and their dramatic and somewhat misleading headlines don't help her unease.

Yep, as a UK immigrant, living in an EU country, married to another EU immigrant, I can relate to the headache of jumping through hoops and chasing paper until my brains bleed.
It is infuriating and even more so when one person (because that's all it takes to stall any bureaucratic process for months, years, eons...) decides that your application is incorrect despite you having followed the rules to the letter.

The other very obvious point to make is it is the EU who are trying to use right to remain as a negotiating stance. The UK has said upfront and very soon after 23rd June that it was prepared to let all EU citizen remain if EU did the same. EU's responce was "no discussions till A50. Obnoxious in the extreme.

Something like 3.4m EU citizens in the UK vs 1.3m UK citizens in Europe

[img] [/img]

My wife, also not from the UK, has not worked for 12 years, as our son is special needs. She volunteers at the CAB as an advisor and we have been told that as she has not contributed National Insurance then she is not eligible for citizenship.

So, to all those Brexit voters: thanks, thanks a bunch.

That's horrible. Is there no way you can make some NI contributions now to set up future eligibility? I will be supporting my ex through citizenship, since without it there is a risk that my 5 year old daughter would have to move to Poland with her mum. This is a worrying time for us too.

Blimey, I thought there'd be more of us living in Croatia!

EU's responce was "no discussions till A50. Obnoxious in the extreme.

I believe during the indy ref you applauded this approach as it meant not showing your hand.

My wife, also not from the UK, has not worked for 12 years, as our son is special needs. She volunteers at the CAB as an advisor and we have been told that as she has not contributed National Insurance then she is not eligible for citizenship.

Daft question, but was she not claiming child benefit? My understanding was that receipt of this covered the recipients NI stamps

My wife, also not from the UK, has not worked for 12 years, as our son is special needs. She volunteers at the CAB as an advisor and we have been told that as she has not contributed National Insurance then she is not eligible for citizenship.

Whoever told you this is full of shit.
You don't need to have contributed a penny in NI to be eligible for UK Citizenship. As long as there is no question of fraudulent or dishonest behaviour, then there should be little problem there. Your wife has been caring for her son, that will be reason enough for the lack of contributions.

The horrible thing about the system is that you will be told a lot of bullshit by a lot of civil servants, mostly in the hope that you will go away and leave them alone. And also that the system is so complex even those employed to administer it don't really understand it.
I know that some of you are facing some uncertainty about your futures and hearing things like that must be terrifying, but don't let it put you off, keep banging away at them and they will eventually give in.

I've copied this from the citizen's advice website, sorry if it's stuff you already know.

Credits for parents and carers

Credits for parents and carers helps parents and carers to satisfy the conditions for long-term benefits, for example, State Pension. This helps you if you are not working because you are bringing up a child or caring for someone.

Credits for parents and carers replaces home responsibilities protection. If you reach state pension age on or after 6 April 2010, any home responsibilities protection you have already received will be changed into credits for parents and carers.

You get credits for parents and carers automatically if you are receiving Child Benefit for a child under 12 or you are getting Carer's Allowance.

However, if you care for one or more people for 20 hours or more a week but are not getting Carer's Allowance, you will need to make a claim for the credits.

Sometimes, you may be able to get credits for parents and carers if your partner gets Child Benefit instead of you. In this case, you would need to claim credits for parents and carers, it would not be recorded automatically.

For more information about Carer's Allowance, see Benefits for people who are sick or disabled.

Fins advice is sound, we've been told so much utter BS by civil servants and crap solicitors in the past.

You seem a great guy fin, your friend having issues is lucky to have someone who is so supportive.

dannyh - Member

<scratches "basic comprehension" off dannyh's list>

Why? That was DrJ's post, not mine.

Your list was about things that Britain was good at, not things that you personally were good at. Understand the difference? 💡

10/10 for stupid fail whilst trying to be a smartarse awarded to sbob.

If you two are going to get so easily confused answering on behalf of each other then you probably shouldn't bother. 💡

I'm wondering when sbob will be back to this thread to explain...

...the ridiculous strawman you just erected? Right about now! 🙂

Also, "artisan negativity" where on earth did that little pseudo-witty gobbit originate?

It was a parody of a certain section of this forum. You should also be aware that mugs of consumable negativity don't actually exist, seeing as we're struggling with the subtleties, so you're not in danger from choking.

Now if you're all done whinging about the country you live in, should you wish for a career in motorsport, do feel free to give me a shout; I still have a few contacts in various areas of the industry. 🙂

Alternatively contemplate the words of my late Great Uncle Zbig; nobody invited you and nobody is forcing you to stay. 😉

MrsQ jumped through the hoops 5 years or so ago, as a non-EU citizen, it took some effort, mainly form filling, and of course a big chunk of cash, but it was easy enough to do.

I fail to see what the issue is here, fill the forms in correctly, have the correct evidence and the appropriate funds, and submit the documents.

That is how changing citizenship, or becoming a citizen works. Or have I missed something from the article.

The only reason there is even an article, is because a middle class, European suddenly has to go through the hoop jumping that the rest of the world has to go through.

It is hardly the same situation though is it. My partner (German) of 23 years has spent All her working life since gaining a degree at a UK university in the UK. Paid all her taxes and NI in the UK, built up a business with me here and contributed to the local community like everyone else - for [b]half [/b]of her life. She has done all this on an equal footing to you or me as an EU citizen on a German passport. We have never married and never had kids and don't intend to either. Following Brexit we WILL find ourselves in an awkward situation not of our making, and one for which there is, as yet, [b]no set procedure[/b]. This is the point of the initial article, not some sort of middle class winge.

Can you imagine the uproar if your EU citizen partners were deported? After all, it would include Farage's wife too...
Australia was forced to repeal the White Australia Policy in the 1970's when a few hundred soldiers couldn't bring their new wives home from Vietnam.
Uncertainty is shit, but can you really forsee mass deportations of EU citizens?
If there are a few million EU citizens in the UK, then they have a few million friends and family here in the UK, who will mostly be able to vote.
I'm not sure this government's willing to make itself unelectable just to prove a point to Brussels.

http://www.immd.gov.hk/eng/services/roa/eligible.html

Maybe a similar model to Hong Kong?

@welshfarmer - now add into the mix that your gf had come with you when you were on an expat assignment to another EU country so has not been continuously in the UK for all that time despite being the parent of a UK citizen. Thanks, brexshit.

Can you imagine the uproar if your EU citizen partners were deported? After all, it would include Farage's wife too...

I'm sure the rules would be carefully drawn to avoid inconveniencing Sir Nigel. One upside would be if Gisela Stuart were to be deported.

Maybe a similar model to Hong Kong?

HK is an example of a reasonably easy system speaking as an immigrant under a spouse visa (my wife is from HK) and able to work under this etc and will soon be on my 7 year of residence and will then gain Permanent Residence as a result.

Sadly its too simple and effective for the UK government to use this as an example.

Your list was about things that Britain was good at, not things that you personally were good at. Understand the difference?

I can see how you were clumsily trying to score points off of two of us at the same time now - congrats.

So, the plan for the country is F1 engineering and a 'Britain Can Make It' attitude, then?

I'll have some of what you've been sniffing, please - cricket pad whitener is it?

dannyh - Member

I can see how you were clumsily trying to score points off of two of us at the same time now - congrats.

Actually it was just one at a time - thanks.

So, the plan for the country is F1 engineering and a 'Britain Can Make It' attitude, then?

I'll have some of what you've been sniffing, please - cricket pad whitener is it?

Stop erecting straw men.

You couldn't, by your own admission, think of anything positive that Britain was a "World leader in".

So I gave you an example.

Is that really so hard to comprehend?
🙂