[Closed] Children and home work

I am struggling to understand why schools are now expecting primary age school children to complete homework?

This is not a new concept. My Dad was given homework at primary school in the fifties, I was given homework in the seventies and my three kids were all given homework  in the last ten years.

I want them to have more homework , not less.

It's the only real mechanism that allows you to see how well (or not) they are doing at school.

If you wait till the end of the year parents evening and find out that they've been struggling all year, it's too late to do anything about it.

If you sit and help them through their homework every night then you'll have a real idea of their progress.

It's not about fretting over a 4 year olds career prospects.

It's about making sure that they can keep up with the rest of the class and don't get left behind.

Our we lad is half way through his first year and primary.  Like you, I was a little concerned when homework was mentioned.

It's the odd book to read together which is nothing but fun, now and again we practise his sounds/phonics and numbers.

No pressure what so ever from the school to get it done.

It's good to see what they are up to and frankly, I enjoy doing it with him.

Just chill, it's always gone on. Your parents will have practised spelling/maths with you. Just make it fun, job jobbed.

Yeah I was given homework in the 70s too but not as much as my kids get now. Education is a joint effort with the parents and schools, that said quite a few teachers at our youngest’s school say it’s a bit much.

We already do stuff like that with him anyway and happy to help out and see how he is developing. Maybe calling it homework makes it sound more intimidating than it actually is.

There’s precious little evidence that homework and testing at primary school age has any benefit to the child.

Rachel

Our kids 6/9 have always had it. Once a week at most, it's usually pretty short, and at least for the youngest it's really just a gesture. Theres no pressure or even follow-up when it gets forgotten about. I think it's as much about habit forming as anything else. Also lets us get involved a bit.

My daughter is in Reception. At age 4 they had one spelling test...they've since renamed these 'quizes'. She is also sent home with books to read and as she loves reading we tend to get through 4 or maybe even 5 in a week.

She see's practicing at home with us as fun as she enjoys and wants to be able to read and write.

She likes Lego as well, so we also throw some simple math's questions in when we're building stuff with the blocks.

It really isn't a big deal if they enjoy learning.

struggling to understand why schools are now expecting primary age school children to complete homework? Is this for the benefit of the schools?

Yes, and to the benefit of the parents who think 'more work = better'.

There is a growing body of research that suggests that:

- if you were a teacher and had say half an hour to do *something* to be more effective in teaching, than homework would be relatively low on the list of effectiveness. Many other things, usually a better approach to teaching and learning, building relationships with children, formative assessment, microteaching etc are more effective.

- the effect on children of having a longer working day than parents (when you include things like homework, out of school music lessons, ballet, football etc), then there is a significant decline in children's health and wellbeing. The lack of 'free choice' through programmed days from dawn until dusk is the main factor here - children never get to calm down, be bored (a key element in creativity and problem solving) and so forth.

- the stress of doing homework is a negative influence on parent/child and child/teacher relationships.

- the type of homework activity is really important - making use of learning that does not need adult/teacher intervention is the most effective, as it teaches learning skills and self management. Thinks like reading a book or researching a topic of their choice. A maths sheet or spellings are not effective use of homework time.

We in Scotland have some authorities looking at banning homework altogether - my own kids old primary is no on a 'homework is optional', with no homework beyond reading a book being issued as of the August.

My eldest two (both 9) have been through this at their school. It starts off with reading a book. Then comes spellings, then comes maths.

I get home from work at 5.30. I start cooking dinner straight away, then we eat, then the kids get bathed. If they are luck we get to spend 15 minutes doing one of the three homework activities they are expected to to do every day! before they go off to bed.

The school put loads of pressure on parents to get homework done everyday. Then you are made to feel like a failure as a parent if you don't, you are letting your children down, you are holding them back, other parents who don't work full time get several hours extra time each evening to achieve this.

It angers me more than just a little. At that age they go to school to learn, the rest of the time they just need to be kids.

From watching my own kids (10 and 14) and the amount of homework they get, I've concluded the present education system seems little more than a box ticking exercise run entirely for the benefit of government statisticians. If your children happen to get a decent education in the process, then that would appear to be a bonus, but it certainly isn't the priority.

If they must set them homework, I'd much rather they set them something to encourage creative thinking, instead of endlessly going over a really narrow restrictive curriculum so they can tick the faddy boxes they seem obsessed with

There’s precious little evidence that homework and testing at primary school age has any benefit to the child.

Is there perhaps a benefit in getting them used to the concept of homework at a young age, so it's not a shock to the system when they hit secondary school?

I think there's a benefit to the parents too - setting an expectation that their childs education is something in which they should be involved..

I think there’s a benefit to the parents too – setting an expectation that their childs education is something in which they should be involved..

It's entirely this. My kids can get through their homework in less than half an hour each day.

About the same time as it takes to play one game of Fortnite or watch  one cartoon on TV.

It's not a massive drain on their time or ours but it's the only reliable feedback mechanism we have to monitor their progress.

Try asking  a ten year old what they've learned at school today and getting anything close to a sensible answer.

It's not practice for the kids. It's feedback for the parents.

Agreed with PerchyPanther.   Although we've always read to our kids at bedtime, its great that my 5yo is wanting to read books to us.  Its a sense she's learning and of her interest and ability.

Although my 9yo is in teenager-esque mode (throwing head back ohhhh, Kevin & Perry style) currently his maths supersedes mine and his spellin words are complex enough to have met thinking twice about some of them.  He can read music and is learning to play Sweet Dreams by Marilyn Manson(!) on his 'leccy guitar.

I used to go and play in a field after school, I've ended up with 5 * C grade GCSE's and a personality disorder to my name.

My daughter is in the first year of secondary school and seems to get quite a bit of homework. She does most stuff by herself but for some subjects she wants help from me and to be honest it is starting to become hard work as opposed to the fun stuff she had at primary school.

The maths has reached the stage where I have to look up how to do things (e.g. area of a trapezium) rather than just knowing. It can also take well over an hour which is not great when she tells me at 9pm that it is due the following day.

I do feel that going through this with her greatly helps her understanding but think I need to encourage her to work independently. It is useful to be involved in terms of assessing her progress though as she only has one parent's evening per year.

I would say enjoy the primary school homework - it can be fun if you approach it in the right way and as others have said it allows you to see where your child might be struggling.

so it’s not a shock to the system when they hit secondary school?

Or the secondary school could progressively introduce it through the first year.

We already do stuff like that with him anyway and happy to help out and see how he is developing. Maybe calling it homework makes it sound more intimidating than it actually is.

Possibly but it also then applies to the parents who don't....

@perchypanth .... Exactly...

 At that age they go to school to learn, the rest of the time they just need to be kids.

Sorry (genuinely) but I disagree very strongly.... IMHO this is a huge part of what is wrong with the system

OH is a teacher but has worked in pre-schools as well and this starts off with the number of parents who think it is a school's job to potty train... that they need do nothing....she has had kids leaving pre-school for reception where the parents have been adamant the primary school will potty train, introduce them to books, learn how to use a knife and fork or tie shoe laces etc.

Some parents expect that behaviour, morality etc. are the schools job...

I'm not suggesting this is YOU.... I'm pointing out this is a joint thing.  

Neither can work without re-inforcement of the other ... and the burden on the schools to do what some parents won't is just another waste of resources.

My kids have had homework at primary school - they seem to get more at the new school we moved them too than the last one.

Nothing too bad in the homework - I struggle though with the new methods that they teach - especially with maths.

What really gets on my goat is flippin' phonics - stop teaching them it's OK to spell phonetically - it isn't. It then takes them ages to unlearn and spell properly.

Oh and handwriting - why they need to teach 6/7 year olds to do joined up is beyond me - especially when they haven't taught them to spell properly first!

....and WTAF is diacritical marking!

However, homework is not potty training, speaking civilly or learning to use a knife or fork.

I’m with matt_outandabout all the way on this. Isn’t there evidence from country’s with more forward thinking education systems than ours (Norway, Sweden) that children learn better through play? Can’t look up now as I’m sat in a car park wasting time before a meeting.

Reading books with your kids is just something that should be done any way. I was reading to both mine from the days they arrived.

Reading books with your kids is just something that should be done any way. I was reading to both mine from the days they arrived.

Yes - but many parents don't. Hence trying to encourage them to feel part of the educational process. Homework can be fun stuff too.

Generally I am a fan of a little homework in primary schools. I had it in the 70's and both my kids had it in the 00's. The best homeworks are open ended creative things, writing, discovering  and making. But we also had word lists to learn for spelling. So many parents really don't see educating kids as part of their role (no reflection on OP, just a general experience). They find time for PS4 and Britains Got Talent, but take little interest in their own kids talents.

A little homework in Pramary Schools gets the kids in the habit of independent study at a young age.

Much of the testing that goes on in schools is more to assess the school than to assess the pupil. I think this is OK however as we need to know how well our schools are doing.

As a scientist and geek I am genuinely amazed by how little curiosity and wonderment most people take in the world. We need an education system that maintains the sense of wonderment and curiosity. Homework can be both a positive or a negative thing to support this.

oh, and for every kid that arrives in primary school already able to read a bit and write their name, there are at least one or two more who are barely potty trained and can't master some of the stuff that many of us would consider basics. Primary school teachers in YR1 have a really difficult job to balance this out!

Primary school teachers in YR1 have a really difficult job to balance this out!

Agreed.

Perhaps, like so many of our European colleagues, we should look to raise the school age, focus on play in early years (to age 6/7) and on parenting skills, instead of expecting ever younger children to read, write, and sit still while undertaking low grade admin tasks while ill prepared to look after themselves?

It’s the only real mechanism that allows you to see how well (or not) they are doing at school.

Bit of a crazy idea, but wouldn't it make sense for schools to send a letter home at the end of each term listing all the subjects the kid's been doing and some comments about their progress? I know it would be a mammoth job for the teachers and schools to organize this "term report", but I'm sure parents would really appreciate it.

IME, homework is really effective for the kids who don't need it (i.e. their parents make sure they keep up with stuff anyway), but useless for the kids who do need it. If the kids haven't kept up with what's happening in class, then they won't be able to do the homework and it's unlikely that their parents will understand what it's about either. This means that the gap between the high-achievers and low-achievers gets bigger, but the teachers are overloaded with checking and grading homework, so they have less time to spend helping the low-achievers catch up.

Hence trying to encourage them to feel part of the educational process. Homework can be fun stuff too.

This is one of the benefits of a small amount of homework at primary school. It means that parents are more likely to be engaged in both the process of setting aside time for homework, and helping where necessary. Good habits all round. Half an hour here and there does not destroy a childhood, any more than that at primary age is pushing it though.

I sure this topic has been done before.

Have a read at the research. (On average a child who does homework is 5 months ahead of a child who doesn't)

Bit of a crazy idea, but wouldn’t it make sense for schools to send a letter home at the end of each term listing all the subjects the kid’s been doing and some comments about their progress? I know it would be a mammoth job for the teachers and schools to organize this “term report”, but I’m sure parents would really appreciate it.

We get one per year, at the end of the year and they are, on the whole,  mostly generic.

"insert name here" is working well and contributes well in class.....etc.

We have compared them with other parents and they are quite often, word for word, identical.

They clearly have three templates to work from. "Child Prodigy", "Normal Kid" and "Danger to themselves and others"

5 months ahead 

"Potential gain is estimated in terms of additional months progress you might expect pupils to make as a result of an approach being used in school, taking average pupil progress over a year is as a benchmark. The progress that an average pupil in a year group of 100 students makes over a year is equivalent to them moving up from 50th place to 16th place, if all the other students had not made any progress."

So that is 5 months ahead of a pupil who did nothing. It is also estimated (as is so much in the muddled science of learning). Next thing you will tell me is that PISA ranks us lowly and that is an accurate assessment of learning...

Others disagree by the way.

https://visible-learning.org/2014/09/john-hattie-interview-bbc-radio-4/

The local primary lets the kids choose some of their own homework. My friends son has included bike maintenance.

5 days in the week / 5 friends.

Revolving each day > Friend + parent agrees to ace homework task and share with the others.

Top marks for 1/5 of the effort.

Anyone that slacks is kicked out of the group. Everyone must proof and understand the work.

Prepare your kids well for corporate life where efficiency and results are valued most 🙂

Should cover maths and science!

Prepare your kids well for corporate life where efficiency and results are valued most 🙂

urrghhhh!

I'm happy for my kids to do a bit of homework, largely as it encourages them to bloody sit still for 30 minutes instead of manically flossing/dabbing/WTFFKDTD 🙂

Seriously though, 30 minutes is nowt.  Bit of maths, some spellings, reading etc.  If it doesn't happen, no worries.  We went to play cricket last night instead of doing homework, though they did a bit of reading before bed.  It may offer "zero" benefit, but that doesn't mean it does any harm IMO.

Perchypanther - as a parent and a teacher i agree to some extent about homework. With regards to feedback to parents, why not speak to class teacher (as i do most weeks) to get a running progress check on your kid?

I’m with matt_outandabout all the way on this. Isn’t there evidence from country’s with more forward thinking education systems than ours (Norway, Sweden) that children learn better through play?

Weirdly there is a whole load of complete contradictions...

Finland is often held up as the "example" where kids stat late and lots of play ... but the other examples are China/Singapore etc. that are entirely the opposite.

There is some scoring system used... you can probably google as I forget the name)

Personally I'm of the belief that sticking to one method is the common denominator.

The UK seems to just change and switch at all levels..... but from my observation that level is generally downwards.

Speaking of common denominators that kinda leads to some examples....

I've lost count of the number of different methods my 8yr old has been taught for different really basic maths.

They try one thing one year then seem to switch method ... no longer do you work out one than they are doing another.

One thing I find completely regressive is that schools are no longer allowed to teach times tables in a single year... what used to be guidance got changed so they are only allowed to teach certain ones...

but the fundamental thing is WHY can't/don't they teach all of times tables in a week (or two?)

Its really just a set of rhymes and stuff you just learn... if it was stuff on Pokemon the kids would have it off the same day....

The reason for picking this example... well how can you teach certain stuff if the kids don't know their times tables... it just makes everything harder for them and to some extent is the reason for the different methods that then lead to confusion.

This leads to such weird arguments by teachers who have no idea how/why something changed...

My kid came home really upset one day last year after the teacher screaming at him that there is no such thing as the 7 times table... perhaps not the best way she could have handled it but since he knows the 7*x table (forwards, backwards and inside out like every other) but she's not allowed to teach it this year guess she got exasperated him reciting it to the class.  (* could have been 7 it's just an example)

So back to the Scandanavian thing.... this year they adopted the Chinese method in maths...

This doesn't seem like any magic .. in fact it appears to be more or less the same as we did in the 70's... before we started experimenting

What my primary school did do in the 70's though was equally terrible... as my school/LEA decided to teach ITA and a whole phonetic alphabet...

In order to do this they ended up in the "there is no 7x table land"...   I could read perfectly well but they had to keep telling me that those letters are false/don't exist etc. (and confiscating books).

Kids had been learning perfectly well without this... but someone decided to be "progressive".... so i had a thoroughly miserable time being told how to spell my name in ITA ... I was 5 and stubborn.. I wanted to believe what my parents told me and what my eyes told me... but to a 5yr old whatever the explanation was came across as your parents have been lying to you. (The reason I know this today is my teacher was my mum's 2nd cousin)

Anyway... my point really is they should stop trying to change everything and be progressive.

Sometimes it's better to just take one or the other and stick to it instead of keep changing.

Perhaps, like so many of our European colleagues, we should look to raise the school age, focus on play in early years (to age 6/7) and on parenting skills, instead of expecting ever younger children to read, write, and sit still while undertaking low grade admin tasks while ill prepared to look after themselves?

What exactly happens to the kids who can read when they go to school???

or is that bad parenting?

I'm got a meeting planned with my sons head teacher as due to a family event, my son missed two classes, and got no homework. Then his teacher preaches class like he's some kind of jerk.

Our five year old is in primary one and gets one reading book and one lot of homework a week.  It quickly became clear that he was having problems with some of his letters - we were able to help him with that.  Just one small example of why it can be a useful thing.

I'm a primary school teacher (retrained this year) and my wife is a primary head teacher.

We'll be firmly opting out of homework for our own children.

Make of that what you will.

not sure what your post is meant to say brant??

What exactly happens to the kids who can read when they go to school???

They read books at nursery. Why wouldn't they?

Also, be aware that some young children can memorise whole books and number (and that includes sums), but they do not actually understand the concepts or underlying processes. My wife (early years peripatetic teacher) assesses children each month who according to parents are 'gifted' and need to be 'pushed on' - yet a good assessment shows they have memorised certain things, not actually understanding.

See we all have a rather UK filtered view of what early years, of primary and secondary education looks like.

I just spent last week in Estonia as part of an Erasmus+ Early Years project, sharing best practice in play and learning outdoors. But we also saw the practice indoors - it include writing, reading, cooking, sleeping, playing, STEM etc - just with a specialist staff who 'get' Early Years.

Finland is often held up as the “example” where kids stat late and lots of play

but the other examples are China/Singapore etc. that are entirely the opposite.

The discrepancy comes down to your value system and how you measure 'successful'.

So back to the Scandanavian thing…. this year they adopted the Chinese method in maths…

I think you mean a country did, and I am not sure it is a Chinese thing, and that is because the way they are being measured is on the PISA system - which is appalling if you ask me - and scores them 'down'.

But, if you want to go down the Asian route, first listen to South Korea's ex education minister who is now going around the globe saying 'we got it wrong', and read up on the 14hour days etc they put in...

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2094427,00.html

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Whos-Afraid-Big-Bad-Dragon/dp/1501200976

This is not perfect - but it does sum up some challenges.

https://www.ted.com/talks/sir_ken_robinson_bring_on_the_revolution

You can opt out of homework?? why didn't anyone tell me that when I was at school?

Anyway, for those with younger children at Primary school, wait till they get to year 6 and the SATs. Even in the last 3 years between my 2 children I've seen a marked increase in panic by the year 6 teachers as they try and squeeze every tiny ounce of interest from the school day by testing the kids incessantly and making out like SATs are the new GCSE's   Its a truly depressing state of affairs and has turned my daughter from an inquisitive school loving child into a weary cynic at 11 years old.

Anyway, for those with younger children at Primary school, wait till they get to year 6 and the SATs.........Its a truly depressing state of affairs and has turned my daughter from an inquisitive school loving child into a weary cynic at 11 years old

Ahem.

That is the English residents in the room.

Scotland, NI and now Wales won't be doing these tests.

It is one of the main reasons we stayed in Scotland (despite no education system being perfect).

We get one per year, at the end of the year and they are, on the whole,  mostly generic.

“insert name here” is working well and contributes well in class…..etc.

We have compared them with other parents and they are quite often, word for word, identical.

They clearly have three templates to work from. “Child Prodigy”, “Normal Kid” and “Danger to themselves and others”

My brother (4 years after me), both of us lazy high achievers, often got identical reports from different teachers. It's a series of drop down choices to make a paragraph. All in all, an utterly useless exercise.

If primary schools set homework, parents complain that they're setting homework. If primary schools don't set homework, parents complain that they're not setting homework.

It's like SATs pressure: parents choose the 'outstanding' school with 'outstanding' SATs results, then complain seven years later that their precious little angel is being made to work hard to get the school 'outstanding' SATs results.

And Finland has great results because it has a more equal society, not because they start school later or don't do homework.

Its a truly depressing state of affairs and has turned my daughter from an inquisitive school loving child into a weary cynic at 11 years old.

Testify. Education is a lifelong activity and losing the love before you're 11 is heartbreak.

The discrepancy comes down to your value system and how you measure ‘successful’.

Truth! PISA success is a measure but certainly not the measure of educational success.

Also, it's important to realise that children should learn things when they are ready to learn them. Forcing a 2 year old to counter to ten and giving them a negative view of education is pointless when then can do it without thinking a year or so later.  At primary age teaching should always be inspiring then they will get the most out of it for life.  Getting "ahead" is counter productive imo. As for Chine<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">se hothousing methods, erm, no thanks. Great for PISA scores not good for producing wonderful human beings. </span>

@mike  your tone comes across as patronising

We 'chose' the nearest school to our house (ofsted:Good) so the children could walk to school. unfortunately due to the nonsense of free choice we ended up with a school 2 miles away (Ofsted: Outstanding, now Good).

I and my daughter have no problem with 'working hard' as you put it - its what they are working hard at that concerns me. Learning to pass exams at age 10 is not education its battery farming.

I’m got a meeting planned with my sons head teacher as due to a family event, my son missed two classes, and got no homework. Then his teacher preaches class like he’s some kind of jerk.

Partial Beastie Boys lyrics quoted there Brant?

We ‘chose’ the nearest school to our house (ofsted:Good) so the children could walk to school. unfortunately due to the nonsense of free choice we ended up with a school 2 miles away (Ofsted: Outstanding, now Good).

I and my daughter have no problem with ‘working hard’ as you put it – its what they are working hard at that concerns me. Learning to pass exams at age 10 is not education its battery farming.

Similar thing here. We chose Funk Jr’s school (Rated good) because we liked the setting, teachers, head and the way they do things. One of the excellent schools we visited was just depressing and rather boring.

I also wholeheartedly agree with your second paragraph. Putting young kids under any sort of pressure is horse shit. They have the rest of their lives ahead of them to become greyscale KPI driven drones. Let them have fun whilst the sense of wonderment is still in tact.

@winston I wasn't aiming it directly at you or your situation; it was a general comment after arriving at the thread with many points already made.

 One of the excellent schools we visited was just depressing and rather boring.

Using your own eyeballs and judgement is well advised, spot on. An Outstanding school is outstanding that week in the eyes of the inspectors. 4 years after the inspection, after the great head has longer moved on the the back of said inspection, leaving Mr Useless McUseless in charge, certainly isn't outstanding, whilst the Good school round the corner could be belting.

If primary schools set homework, parents complain that they’re setting homework. If primary schools don’t set homework, parents complain that they’re not setting homework

Yes, true! The reason we set homework is because the parents demand it and they pay the bills. There is of course the option to opt out, which as I mentioned before, I'd recommend!

Also, be aware that some young children can memorise whole books and number (and that includes sums), but they do not actually understand the concepts or underlying processes. My wife (early years peripatetic teacher) assesses children each month who according to parents are ‘gifted’ and need to be ‘pushed on’ – yet a good assessment shows they have memorised certain things, not actually understanding.

Its an interesting division ... or what understanding a book means is an interesting discussion.

My view is its partly cultural... what did the author mean to be understood in their time and their culture when they wrote it. What did contemporary critics and academics understand?  (and the genre of books written by critics and academics that seem written specifically for that process)

I had a strong disagreement with an ex GF...  actually over LOTR or her announcement of her publishing house making a book, based on the films to be more accessible to kids... This is something I found culturally unacceptable... (though they actually did a far better job on the films than I'd ever have thought) I can't help thinking if it was meant to be more accessible it would be shorter and called The Hobbit...

But anyway, my point is there is an established view .. the Cliff Notes view if you like... but in many cases I have doubts it actually meets the author's view of what they wanted readers to understand when they wrote it.

See we all have a rather UK filtered view of what early years, of primary and secondary education looks like.

To be fair I spent most of my professional life outside the UK .. and having friends and colleges with kids I've seen a lot of different filtered views.

The discrepancy comes down to your value system and how you measure ‘successful’.

<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Sure but one half of that equation is more </span>difficult<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> than the other.... One side might be </span>appropriate<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> to PISA for example but the issue is taking that out of context.  </span>

I think you mean a country did, and I am not sure it is a Chinese thing,

Oh this seems to be the school... anyway its the 5-6th method in <4yrs which is my main issue.  

and that is because the way they are being measured is on the PISA system – which is appalling if you ask me – and scores them ‘down’.

As I say... part of the PISA system seems fine... just dangerous to use out of context.

But, if you want to go down the Asian route, first listen to South Korea’s ex education minister who is now going around the globe saying ‘we got it wrong’, and read up on the 14hour days etc they put in…

I'm not suggesting they do... mostly I'd like them to just decide and stick to one method...

Also, it’s important to realise that children should learn things when they are ready to learn them. Forcing a 2 year old to counter to ten and giving them a negative view of education is pointless when then can do it without thinking a year or so later.

My 2yr old could count to 10 and knew the numerals but "forcing" had no part in it...

We used to count swings and count steps... on one side and on the other Thomas and all then engines have numbers.

However that's more or less skipping...because the education system doesn't bother with that until reception...

I think my timetables is a better example though... now split between 2 yrs... but really something can be done and dusted in a weekend... at least learning the rhymes etc. once it's done it's done...

Do we do that at 4 or do we do that at 8 ???

I'm not sure it matters so long as we don't then do a whole load of other stuff that then requires a different method in the meantime...

Equally my son knowing the times tables early shouldn't be as big an issue as questioning the nature of the trinity in the inquisition.  He just learned them off youtube and then we ended up applying this when he wanted to understand gear ratio's...

One of our friends from NCT is a reception teacher though in a different area now and she cautioned us about "causing trouble" because my son was reading fluently before he went to school.

Retrospectively she was actually correct in a lot of ways....

Forcing a 2 year old to counter to ten and giving them a negative view of education is pointless when then can do it without thinking a year or so later.

A lot of this is down to what you might mean by "forcing"

My 8yr old is quite happy to read whenever.... but he's also very happy pedalling up the Wall twice... and even happier on the descents...

We've been peddling up and more or less been accused of "forcing him and his buddy" ... there is no forcing... this is the result of his buddies dad and me conceding they could come on the weekend...

Sure in the last few years I've encouraged him to ride a bit further or faster. and even bribed with ice-cream or such. and in the same way when he was learning to read he took some persuasion.... but now he does both and they are his favourite things in the world

Just going back to what Mike said

Also, be aware that some young children can memorise whole books and number (and that includes sums), but they do not actually understand the concepts or underlying processes.

We sure that's how he taught himself to read and do numeracy.

He knew every Julia Donaldson by heart but he just started recognising letters... and I'd trace them with my finger as one of us recited them (by this time I'd memorised them as well)

One day he tried to read Texaco whilst we were out... but he obviously hadn't got the letter X... but when we got back and tested him more out of curiosity to find he had learned well over half the alphabet.... (I can't remember what age exactly... though I remember it was Texaco).. he already had Sainbury's etc. at least he could link the sign to Sainsbury's... and most car make logo's...

This is also similar to his numeracy.... he just recognised the numerals from Thomas...

It's how kids learn language in the first place so it can hardly be a bad way to learn ... I was just taking an opportunity with something he paid an interest in and helping him progress it.

Years on... he's now 8... what did he learn or understand from the books?

I'm not sure it matters.... he's extremely articulate both in speech and writing... he uses some memorised phrases but we all do that... (somewhere on my phone I kept a set of messages from a couple of years ago where  he had picked up his mum's iPad but I was convinced I was messaging her... )

He gets understanding and sometimes it's wrong... there are a few phrases or words for example I've had to explain don't mean what he thought ...

Does he understand the same as I would reading the LOTR... almost certainly not but then I read the rest of the collected works that provide context... but he likes to write down any words he doesn't understand and look them up or ask... but now he's gone all "electronic" that has become a Kindle lookup... either way would someone from a different culture understand the same?  Can anyone not from the immediate post-WW-I years understand what Tolkein intended?  More importantly given the publishers edicts did anyone really read as intended?  Can someone from a non Catholic background get the same themes?  All valid points but does it matter of they enjoy reading it?

I guess my point here is he loves reading ... yes he did at one point need a bit of encouragement to learn a few extra letters... and he'd often have a different understanding of some books...but why is that bad as such?

Even if he misunderstands a subtle point or even a whole phrase it helps him express himself and learn new concepts... one of his teachers in particular disapproved of his home reading for the same reasons.

(I could have used another book or author ... just seemed simper to continue)

My 2yr old could count to 10 and knew the numerals but “forcing” had no part in it…

The "2 year old" is hypothetical and it shouldn't be assumed that I meant any 2yo that can count to 10 has been forced.

My 18 month old does a spot of calculus in between eating Play Doh and falling over the cat, but he picked it up himself from an old OU clip that came on YouTube in between Hey Duggee and Pink Fong Family Shark, so I know where you're coming from.

Sounds like it won’t be anymore arduous than we do with him at the moment then. A bit of reading isn’t an issue maybe naming it homework is a bit strong

^^exactly this. Reading is a pleasure. Reading with your kids even more so. If the logic behind it is that it gets parents involved, then all I can say is it’s going to fail. Surely a parent that never bothered reading to (or with) their child isn’t going to suddenly do so because it’s homework. May be me being cynical, but I just don’t see that working.

^^exactly this. Reading is a pleasure. Reading with your kids even more so.

Sure, but setting it as homework isn't going to make it pleasurable for those who don't already find it so.

Speaking as the parent of a Year 2 child, I find the idea of homework and formal testing at that age to be utterly absurd. I'm very fortunate that she enjoys school and is pretty smart because it seems to me that the system is aimed at people like her, to the detriment of others.

Madame is a teacher, I used to be a teacher. Junior didn't get given homework in primary but did get given things to learn at home. Poems, songs, bits of text. I taught him to read and write in English (his first language is French) and then introduced him to German which he took at school along with Spanish.

There was homework in secondary school and there's no doubt having teacher parents helped. Not because we helped but because we pointed him in the direction of the information he needed to do it himself.

There was almost no testing in primary. Teachers just noted what the kids could and couldn't do and gave a report based on that to parents. Wise parents acted on that. Some parent aren't wise, which brings me too:

According to French TV (can't remember which channel) teachers and the school make only 15% of the difference in academic achievement of children, the rest is down to parents, peers, environment... . And the name parents give their kids is a good indication of their chances of getting into an elite university. Kevins have **** all chance of getting a place at Science Po Paris.

I don't think you will find many education experts that see much value in homework at all.  Certainly not for primary school.  There is a movement away from it in many places

I don’t think you will find many education experts that see much value in homework at all.  Certainly not for primary school.  There is a movement away from it in many places

It depends what you mean by homework doesn’t it? My ten yr old’s homework consists of reading* and a very quick task based on that chapter, and then usually a maths excercise which isn’t a set of fixed questions but rather applying the knowledge and technique of the classroom to real life - e.g. work out the area of your bedroom, add up the weights of ingredients in a cake, measure the heights of everyone in your house and put them in order...

she also has one bigger project per term, which seems to encourage an understanding of planning time not leaving it all to the night before; encourages research and usually presents the outcome in a way most of my secondary school classmates would have been humiliated by!

What surprises me most about both my children is how much they understand about how/why they are learning.  When I went to school we did stuff because we were taught it and never bothered to consider why or how.  They are far better learners.  They also understand that they learn different approaches (strategies) to eg. solving mathematical problems and that some people connect better with some strategies than others.  I don’t know how widespread this pedagogical shift is.

*this is the most time consuming part - but do you want children sitting silently reading in class whilst the teacher sits back or do you want the children interacting with the teacher and doing the reading at home?

Winston - I opted out of homework when I was at school.  Doing so did get me into rather a lot of trouble 😉  but had zero effect on my exam results..  The main thing that had an effect on my exam results was the quality of the teachers.

Aside from the very real issue of bullying, school age and achievement at this age are very much an arbitrary thing. A happy child will learn. Trying to standardise this through regimented systems will surely bring results, but these are likely to be the same as those before and allow little room for exploration and innovation. Homework in my view is not wrong per se, however we have supposed to have moved beyond education with assessments, yet I still see many educators defaulting to the chalk and talk style of teaching without truly endeavouring to inspire their students to learn for themselves.

I think a lot of the problem with that ^^^ is that education seems increasingly to value metrics that measure attainment and methods that maintain an upward curve of ever-better results at the expense of teachers actually teaching, in the sense that I was taught in the 70s/80s. I was crap at doing homework, just too lazy - back in my day that just made me a frustration to my teachers as they knew I would have got better results if I put the work in, today it potentially effects a teacher's performance management as it's a negative in the battle for the coveted Offsted "outstanding" achievement. Seems we've got our priorities a bit wrong somewhere, there's little room to inspire when you've an increasing number of targets to meet.

Doing so did get me into rather a lot of trouble  but had zero effect on my exam results..

But you apparently didn't learn about the value of a control in scientific experiments 🙂

Indeed, but my point is that an educator should know their students, and have the skills to be able to differentiate the curriculum to enable these to learn according to their individual styles. A large part of assessments either formal or informal (including homework) is for the benefit for the school rather than the student, to enable them to structure classes etc. Resources aside, a student led approach provide greater understanding of individual talents and how best to educate the staple subjects, yet still allow opportunity for self exploration and learning.

Ohhhh - burnt by molgrips 😉

an educator should know their students, and have the skills to be able to differentiate the curriculum to enable these to learn according to their individual styles

A typical primary school class will have 30 or more kids in it. A secondary teacher in a non-core subject might see a class of thirty kids once or twice a fortnight. In FE, a teacher might teach classes twice a week and teach a total of 200 students There's a huge amount of curriculum content to cover.

Teaching each of them as individuals simply isn't feasible (plus the effectiveness of differentiation is minimal, and learning styles is bunk).

education seems increasingly to value metrics that measure attainment and methods that maintain an upward curve of ever-better results at the expense of teachers actually teaching,

It's not education that values metrics, it's the politicians. It's successive governments wanting to put their stamp on the system. And worse still improve their PISA scores rather than teach kids to be good citizens with useful skills.

At 6 my Daughter gets homework. Either book to read, writing practice or times tables. I like to think it is all good practice to limit mistakes for when she is old enough to post on here!!!!

If homework is effective, it benefits nice, middle class families. Homework entrenches social inequality.

It’s not education that values metrics, it’s the politicians. It’s successive governments wanting to put their stamp on the system. And worse still improve their PISA scores rather than teach kids to be good citizens with useful skills.

Well said Edukator. I wholeheartedly agree with this and genuinely worry about what kind of education my kids will receive.

Unsure about a longer working day comment...apart from homework (or practice as we call it), everything after school and the 20-30 mins of practice is up to them. They do it as they want to so it isn't a longer working day, they are using their free time to do things they enjoy...if that mean going to some sort of training thing, so be it, it is voluntary so only pressure is from them.

It’s not education that values metrics, it’s the politicians.

Totes agree, I should have been clearer (that's where not doing your homework gets you! 🙂 ).

learning styles is bunk

Not for me it isn’t, and I’m aware of the reality of class sizes which is why I said resources aside...

If they must set them homework, I’d much rather they set them something to encourage creative thinking

One of my 8 yr olds' recent pieces of homework. The task was 'create something to do with ancient Egypt in 3D'. She did everything (her idea, no help from us at all - apart from the cutting the shape due to the big sharp knife being used.

The angles on that are all wrong. See the "bent pyramid" for reasons....

Yeah, yeah I know. Unfortunately she made so many layers and we don't have big enough tins to get the ratios right.

Factor in erosion and they may just have looked like that back in the day! 🙂

It’s not education that values metrics, it’s the politicians. It’s successive governments wanting to put their stamp on the system. And worse still improve their PISA scores rather than teach kids to be good citizens with useful skills.

"Education" or Churches or charities ... it still ends up as politics...

If homework is effective, it benefits nice, middle class families. Homework entrenches social inequality.

This goes back to useful skills....

I was taught a whole load of 'useful skills' at school.  They were basically how to be a drone that works in a factory because that is what was a useful skill in NE Lancs in the 70's.... unfortunately (or not) by the time I left school these were almost completely useless skills in NE Lancs... (though to be fair a mate did get onto a Lucs apprenticeship)

Luckily (or not) against the schools wishes I entered myself for O levels in maths & sciences and didn't bother turning up for TD, metalwork or woodwork or any of the CSE's I'd studied (by which I mean was meant to attend class).  All my O levels were "homework" ...

Today we are probably preparing a new set of kids to enter a world where the skills they have been taught will quickly be as useless as my factory skills were but they will be competing against Indian and Chinese skills.

I think in some respects even the politicians are aware of this ... and some care enough to bother.

I don't pretend to know the answer but I do believe most of the kids in primary today will end up either doing personal services where you physically need to be present (like cutting hair) or competing in a global market.

Whilst we mess about with the finer points of social mobility and what percentage of the population goes to Uni there are billions in a global market that come from places that make our poorest areas look positively thriving.

These kids are motivated by getting on.... and be that homework or whatever they will comprise a large part of the global market.

Yeah, yeah I know. Unfortunately she made so many layers and we don’t have big enough tins to get the ratios right.

I'd have made her do it again. The failure would have to be eaten of course - can't waste food.