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We get one per year, at the end of the year and they are, on the whole, mostly generic.
“insert name here” is working well and contributes well in class…..etc.
We have compared them with other parents and they are quite often, word for word, identical.
They clearly have three templates to work from. “Child Prodigy”, “Normal Kid” and “Danger to themselves and others”
My brother (4 years after me), both of us lazy high achievers, often got identical reports from different teachers. It's a series of drop down choices to make a paragraph. All in all, an utterly useless exercise.
If primary schools set homework, parents complain that they're setting homework. If primary schools don't set homework, parents complain that they're not setting homework.
It's like SATs pressure: parents choose the 'outstanding' school with 'outstanding' SATs results, then complain seven years later that their precious little angel is being made to work hard to get the school 'outstanding' SATs results.
And Finland has great results because it has a more equal society, not because they start school later or don't do homework.
Its a truly depressing state of affairs and has turned my daughter from an inquisitive school loving child into a weary cynic at 11 years old.
Testify. Education is a lifelong activity and losing the love before you're 11 is heartbreak.
The discrepancy comes down to your value system and how you measure ‘successful’.
Truth! PISA success is a measure but certainly not the measure of educational success.
Also, it's important to realise that children should learn things when they are ready to learn them. Forcing a 2 year old to counter to ten and giving them a negative view of education is pointless when then can do it without thinking a year or so later. At primary age teaching should always be inspiring then they will get the most out of it for life. Getting "ahead" is counter productive imo. As for Chine<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">se hothousing methods, erm, no thanks. Great for PISA scores not good for producing wonderful human beings. </span>
@mike your tone comes across as patronising
We 'chose' the nearest school to our house (ofsted:Good) so the children could walk to school. unfortunately due to the nonsense of free choice we ended up with a school 2 miles away (Ofsted: Outstanding, now Good).
I and my daughter have no problem with 'working hard' as you put it - its what they are working hard at that concerns me. Learning to pass exams at age 10 is not education its battery farming.
I’m got a meeting planned with my sons head teacher as due to a family event, my son missed two classes, and got no homework. Then his teacher preaches class like he’s some kind of jerk.
Partial Beastie Boys lyrics quoted there Brant?
We ‘chose’ the nearest school to our house (ofsted:Good) so the children could walk to school. unfortunately due to the nonsense of free choice we ended up with a school 2 miles away (Ofsted: Outstanding, now Good).
I and my daughter have no problem with ‘working hard’ as you put it – its what they are working hard at that concerns me. Learning to pass exams at age 10 is not education its battery farming.
Similar thing here. We chose Funk Jr’s school (Rated good) because we liked the setting, teachers, head and the way they do things. One of the excellent schools we visited was just depressing and rather boring.
I also wholeheartedly agree with your second paragraph. Putting young kids under any sort of pressure is horse shit. They have the rest of their lives ahead of them to become greyscale KPI driven drones. Let them have fun whilst the sense of wonderment is still in tact.
@winston I wasn't aiming it directly at you or your situation; it was a general comment after arriving at the thread with many points already made.
One of the excellent schools we visited was just depressing and rather boring.
Using your own eyeballs and judgement is well advised, spot on. An Outstanding school is outstanding that week in the eyes of the inspectors. 4 years after the inspection, after the great head has longer moved on the the back of said inspection, leaving Mr Useless McUseless in charge, certainly isn't outstanding, whilst the Good school round the corner could be belting.
If primary schools set homework, parents complain that they’re setting homework. If primary schools don’t set homework, parents complain that they’re not setting homework
Yes, true! The reason we set homework is because the parents demand it and they pay the bills. There is of course the option to opt out, which as I mentioned before, I'd recommend!
Also, be aware that some young children can memorise whole books and number (and that includes sums), but they do not actually understand the concepts or underlying processes. My wife (early years peripatetic teacher) assesses children each month who according to parents are ‘gifted’ and need to be ‘pushed on’ – yet a good assessment shows they have memorised certain things, not actually understanding.
Its an interesting division ... or what understanding a book means is an interesting discussion.
My view is its partly cultural... what did the author mean to be understood in their time and their culture when they wrote it. What did contemporary critics and academics understand? (and the genre of books written by critics and academics that seem written specifically for that process)
I had a strong disagreement with an ex GF... actually over LOTR or her announcement of her publishing house making a book, based on the films to be more accessible to kids... This is something I found culturally unacceptable... (though they actually did a far better job on the films than I'd ever have thought) I can't help thinking if it was meant to be more accessible it would be shorter and called The Hobbit...
But anyway, my point is there is an established view .. the Cliff Notes view if you like... but in many cases I have doubts it actually meets the author's view of what they wanted readers to understand when they wrote it.
See we all have a rather UK filtered view of what early years, of primary and secondary education looks like.
To be fair I spent most of my professional life outside the UK .. and having friends and colleges with kids I've seen a lot of different filtered views.
The discrepancy comes down to your value system and how you measure ‘successful’.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">Sure but one half of that equation is more </span>difficult<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> than the other.... One side might be </span>appropriate<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> to PISA for example but the issue is taking that out of context. </span>
I think you mean a country did, and I am not sure it is a Chinese thing,
Oh this seems to be the school... anyway its the 5-6th method in <4yrs which is my main issue.
and that is because the way they are being measured is on the PISA system – which is appalling if you ask me – and scores them ‘down’.
As I say... part of the PISA system seems fine... just dangerous to use out of context.
But, if you want to go down the Asian route, first listen to South Korea’s ex education minister who is now going around the globe saying ‘we got it wrong’, and read up on the 14hour days etc they put in…
I'm not suggesting they do... mostly I'd like them to just decide and stick to one method...
Also, it’s important to realise that children should learn things when they are ready to learn them. Forcing a 2 year old to counter to ten and giving them a negative view of education is pointless when then can do it without thinking a year or so later.
My 2yr old could count to 10 and knew the numerals but "forcing" had no part in it...
We used to count swings and count steps... on one side and on the other Thomas and all then engines have numbers.
However that's more or less skipping...because the education system doesn't bother with that until reception...
I think my timetables is a better example though... now split between 2 yrs... but really something can be done and dusted in a weekend... at least learning the rhymes etc. once it's done it's done...
Do we do that at 4 or do we do that at 8 ???
I'm not sure it matters so long as we don't then do a whole load of other stuff that then requires a different method in the meantime...
Equally my son knowing the times tables early shouldn't be as big an issue as questioning the nature of the trinity in the inquisition. He just learned them off youtube and then we ended up applying this when he wanted to understand gear ratio's...
One of our friends from NCT is a reception teacher though in a different area now and she cautioned us about "causing trouble" because my son was reading fluently before he went to school.
Retrospectively she was actually correct in a lot of ways....
Forcing a 2 year old to counter to ten and giving them a negative view of education is pointless when then can do it without thinking a year or so later.
A lot of this is down to what you might mean by "forcing"
My 8yr old is quite happy to read whenever.... but he's also very happy pedalling up the Wall twice... and even happier on the descents...
We've been peddling up and more or less been accused of "forcing him and his buddy" ... there is no forcing... this is the result of his buddies dad and me conceding they could come on the weekend...
Sure in the last few years I've encouraged him to ride a bit further or faster. and even bribed with ice-cream or such. and in the same way when he was learning to read he took some persuasion.... but now he does both and they are his favourite things in the world
Just going back to what Mike said
Also, be aware that some young children can memorise whole books and number (and that includes sums), but they do not actually understand the concepts or underlying processes.
We sure that's how he taught himself to read and do numeracy.
He knew every Julia Donaldson by heart but he just started recognising letters... and I'd trace them with my finger as one of us recited them (by this time I'd memorised them as well)
One day he tried to read Texaco whilst we were out... but he obviously hadn't got the letter X... but when we got back and tested him more out of curiosity to find he had learned well over half the alphabet.... (I can't remember what age exactly... though I remember it was Texaco).. he already had Sainbury's etc. at least he could link the sign to Sainsbury's... and most car make logo's...
This is also similar to his numeracy.... he just recognised the numerals from Thomas...
It's how kids learn language in the first place so it can hardly be a bad way to learn ... I was just taking an opportunity with something he paid an interest in and helping him progress it.
Years on... he's now 8... what did he learn or understand from the books?
I'm not sure it matters.... he's extremely articulate both in speech and writing... he uses some memorised phrases but we all do that... (somewhere on my phone I kept a set of messages from a couple of years ago where he had picked up his mum's iPad but I was convinced I was messaging her... )
He gets understanding and sometimes it's wrong... there are a few phrases or words for example I've had to explain don't mean what he thought ...
Does he understand the same as I would reading the LOTR... almost certainly not but then I read the rest of the collected works that provide context... but he likes to write down any words he doesn't understand and look them up or ask... but now he's gone all "electronic" that has become a Kindle lookup... either way would someone from a different culture understand the same? Can anyone not from the immediate post-WW-I years understand what Tolkein intended? More importantly given the publishers edicts did anyone really read as intended? Can someone from a non Catholic background get the same themes? All valid points but does it matter of they enjoy reading it?
I guess my point here is he loves reading ... yes he did at one point need a bit of encouragement to learn a few extra letters... and he'd often have a different understanding of some books...but why is that bad as such?
Even if he misunderstands a subtle point or even a whole phrase it helps him express himself and learn new concepts... one of his teachers in particular disapproved of his home reading for the same reasons.
(I could have used another book or author ... just seemed simper to continue)
My 2yr old could count to 10 and knew the numerals but “forcing” had no part in it…
The "2 year old" is hypothetical and it shouldn't be assumed that I meant any 2yo that can count to 10 has been forced.
My 18 month old does a spot of calculus in between eating Play Doh and falling over the cat, but he picked it up himself from an old OU clip that came on YouTube in between Hey Duggee and Pink Fong Family Shark, so I know where you're coming from.
Sounds like it won’t be anymore arduous than we do with him at the moment then. A bit of reading isn’t an issue maybe naming it homework is a bit strong
^^exactly this. Reading is a pleasure. Reading with your kids even more so. If the logic behind it is that it gets parents involved, then all I can say is it’s going to fail. Surely a parent that never bothered reading to (or with) their child isn’t going to suddenly do so because it’s homework. May be me being cynical, but I just don’t see that working.
^^exactly this. Reading is a pleasure. Reading with your kids even more so.
Sure, but setting it as homework isn't going to make it pleasurable for those who don't already find it so.
Speaking as the parent of a Year 2 child, I find the idea of homework and formal testing at that age to be utterly absurd. I'm very fortunate that she enjoys school and is pretty smart because it seems to me that the system is aimed at people like her, to the detriment of others.
Madame is a teacher, I used to be a teacher. Junior didn't get given homework in primary but did get given things to learn at home. Poems, songs, bits of text. I taught him to read and write in English (his first language is French) and then introduced him to German which he took at school along with Spanish.
There was homework in secondary school and there's no doubt having teacher parents helped. Not because we helped but because we pointed him in the direction of the information he needed to do it himself.
There was almost no testing in primary. Teachers just noted what the kids could and couldn't do and gave a report based on that to parents. Wise parents acted on that. Some parent aren't wise, which brings me too:
According to French TV (can't remember which channel) teachers and the school make only 15% of the difference in academic achievement of children, the rest is down to parents, peers, environment... . And the name parents give their kids is a good indication of their chances of getting into an elite university. Kevins have **** all chance of getting a place at Science Po Paris.
I don't think you will find many education experts that see much value in homework at all. Certainly not for primary school. There is a movement away from it in many places
I don’t think you will find many education experts that see much value in homework at all. Certainly not for primary school. There is a movement away from it in many places
It depends what you mean by homework doesn’t it? My ten yr old’s homework consists of reading* and a very quick task based on that chapter, and then usually a maths excercise which isn’t a set of fixed questions but rather applying the knowledge and technique of the classroom to real life - e.g. work out the area of your bedroom, add up the weights of ingredients in a cake, measure the heights of everyone in your house and put them in order...
she also has one bigger project per term, which seems to encourage an understanding of planning time not leaving it all to the night before; encourages research and usually presents the outcome in a way most of my secondary school classmates would have been humiliated by!
What surprises me most about both my children is how much they understand about how/why they are learning. When I went to school we did stuff because we were taught it and never bothered to consider why or how. They are far better learners. They also understand that they learn different approaches (strategies) to eg. solving mathematical problems and that some people connect better with some strategies than others. I don’t know how widespread this pedagogical shift is.
*this is the most time consuming part - but do you want children sitting silently reading in class whilst the teacher sits back or do you want the children interacting with the teacher and doing the reading at home?
Winston - I opted out of homework when I was at school. Doing so did get me into rather a lot of trouble 😉 but had zero effect on my exam results.. The main thing that had an effect on my exam results was the quality of the teachers.
Aside from the very real issue of bullying, school age and achievement at this age are very much an arbitrary thing. A happy child will learn. Trying to standardise this through regimented systems will surely bring results, but these are likely to be the same as those before and allow little room for exploration and innovation. Homework in my view is not wrong per se, however we have supposed to have moved beyond education with assessments, yet I still see many educators defaulting to the chalk and talk style of teaching without truly endeavouring to inspire their students to learn for themselves.
I think a lot of the problem with that ^^^ is that education seems increasingly to value metrics that measure attainment and methods that maintain an upward curve of ever-better results at the expense of teachers actually teaching, in the sense that I was taught in the 70s/80s. I was crap at doing homework, just too lazy - back in my day that just made me a frustration to my teachers as they knew I would have got better results if I put the work in, today it potentially effects a teacher's performance management as it's a negative in the battle for the coveted Offsted "outstanding" achievement. Seems we've got our priorities a bit wrong somewhere, there's little room to inspire when you've an increasing number of targets to meet.
Doing so did get me into rather a lot of trouble but had zero effect on my exam results..
But you apparently didn't learn about the value of a control in scientific experiments 🙂
Indeed, but my point is that an educator should know their students, and have the skills to be able to differentiate the curriculum to enable these to learn according to their individual styles. A large part of assessments either formal or informal (including homework) is for the benefit for the school rather than the student, to enable them to structure classes etc. Resources aside, a student led approach provide greater understanding of individual talents and how best to educate the staple subjects, yet still allow opportunity for self exploration and learning.
Ohhhh - burnt by molgrips 😉
an educator should know their students, and have the skills to be able to differentiate the curriculum to enable these to learn according to their individual styles
A typical primary school class will have 30 or more kids in it. A secondary teacher in a non-core subject might see a class of thirty kids once or twice a fortnight. In FE, a teacher might teach classes twice a week and teach a total of 200 students There's a huge amount of curriculum content to cover.
Teaching each of them as individuals simply isn't feasible (plus the effectiveness of differentiation is minimal, and learning styles is bunk).
education seems increasingly to value metrics that measure attainment and methods that maintain an upward curve of ever-better results at the expense of teachers actually teaching,
It's not education that values metrics, it's the politicians. It's successive governments wanting to put their stamp on the system. And worse still improve their PISA scores rather than teach kids to be good citizens with useful skills.
At 6 my Daughter gets homework. Either book to read, writing practice or times tables. I like to think it is all good practice to limit mistakes for when she is old enough to post on here!!!!
If homework is effective, it benefits nice, middle class families. Homework entrenches social inequality.
It’s not education that values metrics, it’s the politicians. It’s successive governments wanting to put their stamp on the system. And worse still improve their PISA scores rather than teach kids to be good citizens with useful skills.
Well said Edukator. I wholeheartedly agree with this and genuinely worry about what kind of education my kids will receive.
Unsure about a longer working day comment...apart from homework (or practice as we call it), everything after school and the 20-30 mins of practice is up to them. They do it as they want to so it isn't a longer working day, they are using their free time to do things they enjoy...if that mean going to some sort of training thing, so be it, it is voluntary so only pressure is from them.
It’s not education that values metrics, it’s the politicians.
Totes agree, I should have been clearer (that's where not doing your homework gets you! 🙂 ).
learning styles is bunk
Not for me it isn’t, and I’m aware of the reality of class sizes which is why I said resources aside...
If they must set them homework, I’d much rather they set them something to encourage creative thinking
One of my 8 yr olds' recent pieces of homework. The task was 'create something to do with ancient Egypt in 3D'. She did everything (her idea, no help from us at all - apart from the cutting the shape due to the big sharp knife being used.
The angles on that are all wrong. See the "bent pyramid" for reasons....
Yeah, yeah I know. Unfortunately she made so many layers and we don't have big enough tins to get the ratios right.
Factor in erosion and they may just have looked like that back in the day! 🙂
It’s not education that values metrics, it’s the politicians. It’s successive governments wanting to put their stamp on the system. And worse still improve their PISA scores rather than teach kids to be good citizens with useful skills.
"Education" or Churches or charities ... it still ends up as politics...
If homework is effective, it benefits nice, middle class families. Homework entrenches social inequality.
This goes back to useful skills....
I was taught a whole load of 'useful skills' at school. They were basically how to be a drone that works in a factory because that is what was a useful skill in NE Lancs in the 70's.... unfortunately (or not) by the time I left school these were almost completely useless skills in NE Lancs... (though to be fair a mate did get onto a Lucs apprenticeship)
Luckily (or not) against the schools wishes I entered myself for O levels in maths & sciences and didn't bother turning up for TD, metalwork or woodwork or any of the CSE's I'd studied (by which I mean was meant to attend class). All my O levels were "homework" ...
Today we are probably preparing a new set of kids to enter a world where the skills they have been taught will quickly be as useless as my factory skills were but they will be competing against Indian and Chinese skills.
I think in some respects even the politicians are aware of this ... and some care enough to bother.
I don't pretend to know the answer but I do believe most of the kids in primary today will end up either doing personal services where you physically need to be present (like cutting hair) or competing in a global market.
Whilst we mess about with the finer points of social mobility and what percentage of the population goes to Uni there are billions in a global market that come from places that make our poorest areas look positively thriving.
These kids are motivated by getting on.... and be that homework or whatever they will comprise a large part of the global market.
Yeah, yeah I know. Unfortunately she made so many layers and we don’t have big enough tins to get the ratios right.
I'd have made her do it again. The failure would have to be eaten of course - can't waste food.
learning styles is bunk
Not for me it isn’t
https://www.teachermagazine.com.au/articles/tackling-the-learning-styles-myth
https://www.britishcouncil.org/voices-magazine/four-reasons-avoid-learning-styles-one-alternative
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/04/the-myth-of-learning-styles/557687/
one of his teachers in particular disapproved of his home reading for the same reasons.
Sorry, I don't understand this. Why would a teacher disapprove of a child learning, surely that's the whole point?
They also understand that they learn different approaches (strategies) to eg. solving mathematical problems and that some people connect better with some strategies than others.
I'm glad you said this, it's something I've thought for a while. Different people's brains work in different ways - mine certainly does, I'm not neurotypical. At school in Maths we used to get taught methods for doing things and I'd often find myself thinking "that makes no sense" and would come up with different approaches.
One thing that always stuck in my mind was in a Computing lesson at college once. The lecturer had given us an example algorithm for something, it was like three quarters of a page long. Something about it didn't sit right with me, so I fiddled about with it and managed to rewrite it in about four lines. I nudged my mate, went "is this right?" He looked at it for a bit, went, "shit, yeah." I stuck my hand up and told the lecturer. He was like, "no, that can't possibly be right." We were both insistent, he went through it on the board trying to break it, and couldn't. In the end he gave it back to the class as "Alan's Algorithm (experimental)." My point here isn't my AWESOMENESS but rather just as an example of how kids' brains can fire differently.
I see this still today when training apprentices. Teaching say IP subnetting, which can be a tricksy thing to get your head round, I make a point of teaching it myself and also getting a couple of network engineers to do it. The real engineers will teach it in the Cisco way, I do it in way that makes sense in my head as I'm not a network engineer and know what I know by dint of working it out. I've had trainees tell me that my way didn't make a jot of sense and they really got it when Tom went through it, and have had others tell me that they'd read books and listened to engineers but it only finally clicked when I went through it. Neither method is superior, but exposure to multiple teaching methods and approaches has been massively helpful to them.
One of my 8 yr olds’ recent pieces of homework. The task was ‘create something to do with ancient Egypt in 3D’.
That's brilliant. Fair play to her.
Not for me it isn’t
Whatever your view, or indeed linked articles position, I certainly am more kinaesthetic and visual than I am auditory. VAK is a moot point and like Growth Mindset there will always be developments and differing views in teaching styles.
My point however was that homework is not a bad thing in itself, but how often is it that homework consists of hastily printed worksheets from the internet, completed by frustrated parents and marked by teachers over a bottle of wine or two 😉
I am sick of eating cake - it's all she does! She makes so many she doesn't even use the recipe book anymore – ast week she make a three-tier 'surprise' cake - the middle section had a hole cut in the middle so when it's cut open sweets fall out. 🙂
I am trying to get her to enter Junior Bake-off.
Whatever your view, or indeed linked articles position, I certainly am more kinaesthetic and visual than I am auditory. VAK is a moot point and like Growth Mindset there will always be developments and differing views in teaching styles.
Don't get me started on Growth Mindset... 😉
Don’t get me started on Growth Mindset
Just tell your boss you can't do it........yet