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Story in The Guardian about a guy carrying gardening tools getting a caution from police. Somewhat relevant to carrying trail maintenance tools etc.
All written like he was very hard done by to be cautioned for carrying a trowel until you look the thing up, a bit naive carrying that on your belt around Manchester, I think bottom of a tool bag as minimum.
Why he couldn't stick them in a bag ?
All written like he was very hard done by to be cautioned for carrying a trowel
How very dare they - don't they know that's an artisan trowel! 😱
...and reading the article he also had a sickle and a peeling knife on him. I don't think his legal challenge will go very far.
I think bottom of a tool bag as minimum.
In the trug under the produce would have helped. It isn't as if the Niwaki website doesn't warn buyers,
Please note:
By law, we are not permitted to sell a knife or blade to any person under the age of 18. By placing an order for one of these items you are declaring that you are 18 years of age or over.These items must be used responsibly and appropriately.
The other thing that's worth noting is that a caution isn't a simple (or cheap) thing to set aside. Make sure that you get legal representation before interview if someone objects to your trail-building kit 😉
His issue was accepting the caution in the first place since he has a statutory defence.They are not offensive weapons as such. So there needs to be an intent to use.
"A person will have a defence if they can prove they have a good reason or lawful authority for having the article in a public place. For example, if they have it with them for work purposes"
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/knife-and-other-weapons-offences
That said carrying them in a bag would be sensible.
Sounds like he also had this strapped to his belt...
It does look quite stabby for a trowel tbh but, if what the guy says is right, he shouldn't have accepted the caution - easy to say when you're not in the cells.
How many kids get cajoled into this kind of thing...?
https://www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk/advice_information/what-is-a-police-caution/
If you're offered a caution it used to be a refusal led to NFA. Have things changed since the 00's?
If you're offered a caution it used to be a refusal led to NFA. Have things changed since the 00's?
It depends.. If the police think they have a case then they could charge you with going equipt to steal or carrying a weapon etc then it's up to CPS to review and you can end up in court and done for the offence.
Wandering around Manchester with a sickle is a tough one to defend... So it made sense for him to just take the caution.
Wandering around Manchester with a sickle is a tough one to defend... So it made sense for him to just take the caution.
TBF a lot depends on the circumstances. Rereading the article, it sounds like he was arrested right outside his house and when he said he was (planning to?) cut his hedge with the "small sickle". So I suppose the relevance of the allotment is a) it was why he needed the bladey-trowel and b) he was on his way back from there when the person called the police saw him.
I really doubt that if he refused the caution the police would have taken this to CPS, and that it would pass the two stage test for prosecution (Is there sufficient evidence for a reasonable prospect of conviction? Is it in the public interest?). The argument that he had a "good reason" for possession of the trowel (gardening) would be hard to displace beyond reasonable doubt, and the amount of time that would have to be invested in prosecuting this wouldn't make the community safer.
However...easy for me to say he should have gambled when I'm sitting on my comfortable sofa and wouldn't have borne the cost of it going wrong!
(I don't the caller or police were wrong to worry what he was up to at first glance).
https://www.cps.gov.uk/publication/code-crown-prosecutors
Still, at least he made it home in time for the Robert Smith lookalike semi-finals
I was going to go for a Green Day tribute act rehersing in the allotment
That's not a knife!!
That's a zombie trowel.
Possibly, especially if you have one like mine, which has a serrated edge along one side!
Its proper name is a hori hori gardening knife/trowel, it’s designed to be used for digging, cutting roots, twine and string. It’s much stronger than most trowels the steel is around 5/6mm thick.
And yes, as several people have said, he really should have had it in the trug, but I guess, as the hori hori is in a sheath, it’s easier to use, and it keeps it clean when all the gardening waste is dumped into the trug. 🤷🏼♂️
Curiously, I saw very similar gardening tools for sale in a case in the Dartington Cider Press in Devon only yesterday, I'd imagine that if you buy them along with some cut glass wine tumblers and organic chutney then it won't cross your mind that they look like an offensive weapon.
As a former cop whose job it was to administer cautions I’d always advise the following:
If you are ever arrested you will be offered free legal advice. ALWAYS take that offer.
Don't ever accept a caution unless you know you are absolutely bang to rights and won’t win a court case. If you think it’s a soft option or an easy way out, remember that you will have a criminal record and will have to declare it on any educational or job applications.
I’ve talked many a fine otherwise upstanding “Gordon Goodcitizen” out of accepting a caution as their offences haven’t been in the public interest to prosecute and they naively thought they were doing the right thing.
That legal advice you are entitled to is free. Take the freebie.
They're a bloody stupid trowel any way. Digging tool with nothing to stop you sliding off the handle and onto the blade.
And its a bloody stupid knife, if you ise it asa trowel you suddenly have a blunt knife.
Rereading the article, it sounds like he was arrested right outside his house
Its a confused article with that reference to cutting his hedge vs being seen walking back with it from the allotments.
Looking at that and the sickle whilst I might chance it if the allotment was just round the corner anything more than that it would be wrapped up and tucked away.
If you think it’s a soft option or an easy way out, remember that you will have a criminal record and will have to declare it on any educational or job applications.
I don't believe this is correct. Are you sure it is?
They're a bloody stupid trowel any way. Digging tool with nothing to stop you sliding off the handle and onto the blade.
And its a bloody stupid knife, if you ise it asa trowel you suddenly have a blunt knife.
So you’ve used one, have you? You seem to be well acquainted with some perceived shortcomings.
As they’re a very common gardening tool in Japan, one would imagine that, if there were such issues, then appropriate measures would be taken. However, in the several years I’ve owned mine, I’ve never had any such issues, the edges aren’t particularly sharp, just sharp enough to be able to cut through turf and roots; for cutting string, twine, etc, there’s a curved notch above the main edge which is a bit like a safety belt cutter, just sharp enough to loop string into and pull.
tl:dr - you have no clue, and you’re talking bollocks.
So,
Is this a good place to ask if my friend would get stopped with electric hedge trimmer in a back pack (blades encased in plastic, sticking out the top).
On his way to the (unsanctioned) trails for some trimming.
He's given up with anything longer than a swiss army knife in his camping/ bike packing stuff.
His brush hook and folding saw have been banished to the gardening tools 😭
@richpenny, A caution is a criminal record, people think of it as a sort of warning often but when you accept a caution you are explicitly accepting guilt and signing for it. You should be told that when you're given the caution and before accepting it. It is NOT a criminal conviction, so it depends on the question.
It won't necessarily show up on a basic DBS, assuming they actually do that. I was never 100% sure why, I think it's because some or most simple cautions are "spent" immediately. If I understand correctly even most conditional cautions get "spent" relatively quickly, and stop appearing in basic DBSs after a few months or maybe even never appear at all. Some specific cautions have longer lasting effects, you can frinstance only be cautioned but be put on the sex offender's register.
(I was never a full time hr guy but dealt with a ton of short term hirings, we did at least basic DBS for absolutely everyone and it was pretty interesting, I can only remember a single time someone didn't declare a criminal record and we found one of any note, but there were loads when someone declared something but we found nothing, even sometimes on the enhanced DBS. I'd assumed they'd show up for the 6 years or whatever it turned out not to work that way.
Incidentally you can do a DBS on yourself so, if someone has a record, there's probably a good argument for checking it before an application. If it doesn't show up, you can probably safely lie about it. I may have mentioned to some employees that their offence didn't show up, they were just kids and it seemed only fair, otherwise you're penalising someone for being honest.
So you’ve used one, have you? You seem to be well acquainted with some perceived shortcomings.
Yep. A whole weekend in the pissing rain. So stick that in your tactical pipe and smoke it.
Wandering around Manchester with a sickle is a tough one to defend... So it made sense for him to just take the caution.
To be fair, being put into a secure room in the police station because you were carrying a small.curved blade tool is enough to make you forget seemingly obvious protocols.
I think it's called sickle cell amnesia.
@Northwind, that was kind of my point. You do not *have* to declare a caution on any educational or job applications. Any need to do so is dependent on the nature of the caution and what you're applying for.
I can only remember a single time someone didn't declare a criminal record and we found one of any note, but there were loads when someone declared something but we found nothing, even sometimes on the enhanced DBS. I'd assumed they'd show up for the 6 years or whatever it turned out not to work that way.
tl:dr - you have no clue, and you’re talking bollocks
Lol.
Yes, I failed to write the words “on any educational or job application form which asks whether you have a criminal record” mea culpa.
I always used to remind them that most cautions expire depending on their scale in the rehabilitation offenders act, but certain ones remain valid for life. And some application forms ask for ALL cautions including expired ones.
My point was that cautions aren’t an informal resolution, and they aren’t to be taken lightly.
I don’t think we have enough true details to comment on the rights or wrongs in the original article.
To be fair, being put into a secure room in the police station because you were carrying a small.curved blade tool is enough to make you forget seemingly obvious protocols.
I think it's called sickle cell amnesia.
That deserved more recognition than it got. 👏👏
As they’re a very common gardening tool in Japan, one would imagine that, if there were such issues, then appropriate measures would be taken. However, in the several years I’ve owned mine, I’ve never had any such issues, the edges aren’t particularly sharp, just sharp enough to be able to cut through turf and roots; for cutting string, twine, etc, there’s a curved notch above the main edge which is a bit like a safety belt cutter, just sharp enough to loop string into and pull.
tl:dr - you have no clue, and you’re talking bollocks.
Yes, but if you really wanted to could you shove that 'trowel' into a person ? it's steel, it's pointy, so I guess the answer to the question is, yes it is a weapon because it can be used as one.
@Northwind, that was kind of my point. You do not *have* to declare a caution on any educational or job applications. Any need to do so is dependent on the nature of the caution and what you're applying for.
If you ask you if you have a criminal record and you lie and say no, and they find out, good luck with your application. You don't "have" to do anything, pretty much, but there's often consequences.
If [they] ask you if you have a criminal record and you lie and say no
It's not a lie if you don't disclose a criminal history when you're not obliged to disclose a criminal history. That's the whole point of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 - that some things become spent and irrelevant in certain circumstances. https://www.gov.uk/tell-employer-or-college-about-criminal-record/what-information-you-need-to-give
TBH I do just wonder how naive/entitled people can be.
Yep they may be a common garden tools (in Japan ) but wondering around with what looks like a knife sheath and knife attached to your belt whilst wearing combat looking gear is sort of likely to attract unwanted attention in most U.K. locations.
It’s sort of back to our usual everyday knife carry arguments around those knives that are fine for peeling your apple in France but aren’t permitted under U.K. law because people can’t be trusted to just use them for just fruit and cheese.
(TBH as a scout in the 70’s we had all had belt mounted scout knives bought in the scout shop and they would tell you then that you didn’t wear it out and about, it was for scout camping trips only and for playing splits obviously)
So,
Is this a good place to ask if my friend would get stopped with electric hedge trimmer in a back pack (blades encased in plastic, sticking out the top).
On his way to the (unsanctioned) trails for some trimming.
The laws actually nicely spelled out on https://www.askthe.police.uk/faq/?id=ab9e2fce-a1d4-ee11-904d-00224840d1ba
3. Items that are not specifically made or adapted to cause injury but are carried for that purpose -
Examples are a hammer, cricket ball, baseball bat, scissors, razor, a stone, pick axe handle etc.
Almost any item can be considered to be an offensive weapon if the person carrying the item intends to use it to cause injury.
Whether an item is an offensive weapon is a question of facts for a jury, based on the full facts of the case.
It is an offence for any person who without lawful authority or reasonable excuse has with them in any public place, any offensive weapon. It is also an offence to possess (including in private) any offensive weapon as outlined in category 1, i.e. those that are made for the purpose of causing injury.
So a gang of hoodies probably couldn't get away with going to play cricket in the park with a stone and four pick axe handles for make shift cricket bat and stumps?
I think there's more to this than is being told.
People don't just report you for trimming a hedge. There must be something suspicious about your behaviour to make someone think you look like a wrong-un.
And why armed police as an immediate response - seems excessive - wouldn't you send a normal PC round first to asses the situation and then called armed police in if needed.
Unless the person reporting was a neighbour who had a grudge.
There must be something suspicious about your behaviour to make someone think you look like a wrong-un.
Without wanting to judge someone who may be neurodiverse, walking round in khaki clothes with "weapons" attached to your utility belt and looking like a "character" is deserving of police attention IMO. And I imagine there's a defined protocol to how they respond to reports of armed persons in public.
Without wanting to judge someone who may be neurodiverse, walking round in khaki clothes with "weapons" attached to your utility belt and looking like a "character" is deserving of police attention IMO. And I imagine there's a defined protocol to how they respond to reports of armed persons in public.
I once sort of caused a minor riot - long, boring story not worth retelling here. About 30 police, dog handlers, everything short of the riot squad, turned up to deal with a couple of dopeheads going around damaging cars. When I asked one of the police why there were so many he replied that they were bored in the station and thought they'd jump in the van for some entertainment.
People don't just report you for trimming a hedge. There must be something suspicious about your behaviour to make someone think you look like a wrong-un.
I think walking down the street with a large knife on your belt would be enough, regardless of the rest of your appearance. There is no doubt it is a knife not a trowel, Ok a gardening knife that is used in place of a trowel, but a knife all the same. The manufacturer makes it very clear in their product description
"Please familiarise yourself with the Offensive Weapons Law before carrying this tool in public.
Under section 1 of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953, it is an offence to have a weapon in a public place unless you have lawful authority or a reasonable excuse. This might include carrying tools for work or transporting gardening equipment.
We strongly advise that you keep this tool concealed, sheathed, and out of sight in public spaces – preferably in a gardening bag or toolbox rather than on your belt."
If he had just been to a BBQ across town he probably wouldn't wander about with boning knife and a cleaver on his belt.
If he had just been to a BBQ across town he probably wouldn't wander about with boning knife and a cleaver on his belt.
This guy Barbeques.
And why armed police as an immediate response - seems excessive - wouldn't you send a normal PC round first to asses the situation and then called armed police in if needed.
He wasnt reported for trimming a hedge but for walking around. He was stopped at home but that wasnt the basis of the report.
For someone walking down the street with a knife I think it does make more sense to have a taser armed PC by preference just in case the situation does turn out to be "complete nutter". The police comment also suggests they were in the area anyway and hence would be quicker on scene than a normal PC.
And why armed police as an immediate response - seems excessive - wouldn't you send a normal PC round first to asses the situation and then called armed police in if needed.
I'm a massive smartarse and love sticking my ill-informed opinion in to criticise the cops. However, even I can see that:
- if you're a call handler and you get a report of a man armed with a weapon walking down the street, then sending the best-equipped officers that are available seems sensible. For all we know the armed officers just happened to be 2 minutes away and if they weren't so close then "normal" cops wpuld have attended alone
- if the "normal" cops take x minutes to get there and realise it's a bigger problem that requires more heavily armed officers, then they're going to need another y minutes for those officers to arrive
if you're a call handler and you get a report of a man armed with a weapon walking down the street, then sending the best-equipped officers that are available seems sensible. For all we know the armed officers just happened to be 2 minutes away and if they weren't so close then "normal" cops wpuld have attended alone
I occasionally watch "police interceptor" fly-on-the-wall type shows on TV. Assuming them to be representative (which may be a leap in itself), Dispatch going "is there anyone in the vicinity of [place] who can respond?" is not an uncommon call.
I suppose as well it depends what was reported. If the caller said they'd seen a bloke walking around visibly armed to the bollocks with scary-looking blades, that might well have elicited a more robust police response.
@ All the replies! 😀
Hence there's more to it than kindly allotment owner walking down street merrily swinging his trug of freshly harvested produce gets arrested!!
I'm no wiser as to what the 'more to it' is than any of you lot! 🤣
Im sorry but this guy falls into the "they cant do that to me" the "i know the law" etc etc lot. Same type of attitude as these "auditors" or "urban explorers"
lock them all up. Preferably after beating them with a trowel.