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In this instance by the way, forget any mention of "offensive weapons" , the stuff he was carrying all fall under the definition of a bladed or sharply pointed implement under the 1988 Criminal Justice Act. Here's what the CPS have to say on the matter. Note that for this offence, the onus of proving good reason is for the person found in possession of the article.
Possession of a bladed article in public place - maximum 4 years' imprisonment
This offence can be found in section 139 CJA 1988. It is committed when a person has an article with a blade or is sharply pointed or is a folding pocketknife with a cutting edge that exceeds 3 inches in a public place without good reason or lawful authority.
A person will have a defence if they can prove they have a good reason or lawful authority for having the article in a public place. For example, if they have it with them for work purposes, religious reasons or as part of a national costume.
"A person will have a defence if they can prove they have a good reason or lawful authority for having the article in a public place. F"
Like walking home from the allotment where it was being used.
Seems the article is written perfectly for people to project their own biases onto.
In this instance by the way, forget any mention of "offensive weapons" , the stuff he was carrying all fall under the definition of a bladed or sharply pointed implement under the 1988 Criminal Justice Act.
It's fair to point out the existence of that other offence but:
1) the cops said "He was arrested on suspicion of possession of an offensive weapon and taken into custody. He admitted the offence and was given a conditional caution, which entailed advice and guidance around the legislation of knives and bladed weapons in a public place". TBF, this may be slightly soggy phrasing by the PR team if the caution was for the bladed implement offence.
2) it doesn't really matter because both offences have the same "good reason" defence, and whether the onus of raising it is reversed or not is irrelevant - it was always going to be raised in practice because it's the only fact in contention!
Without wanting to judge someone who may be neurodiverse, walking round in khaki clothes with "weapons" attached to your utility belt and looking like a "character" is deserving of police attention IMO.
Neurodivergent. A population is neurodiverse, an individual may be divergent. You don't want to judge but you just couldn't stop yourself, like a runaway train.
People don't just report you for trimming a hedge. There must be something suspicious about your behaviour to make someone think you look like a wrong-un.
Hence there's more to it than kindly allotment owner walking down street merrily swinging his trug of freshly harvested produce gets arrested!!
Bully sees naive neurodivergent "character"and enjoys a little bit of sport. ND character gives too much attitude. Bully sees opportunity to **** him up.
Hipster gardening tool carries funky Japanese gardening tool and gets arrested for it, shrugs.
or as part of a national costume.
So when wearing the kilt, us Scotsmen(and Scotswomen) can not only sport a skean dhu in our sock, but can also wear one of these on our belts.
The Scottish Dirk(usually a 12" blade)
Seems the article is written perfectly for people to project their own biases onto.
Bully sees naive neurodivergent "character"and enjoys a little bit of sport. ND character gives too much attitude. Bully sees opportunity to **** him up.
@ All the replies! 😀
Hence there's more to it than kindly allotment owner walking down street merrily swinging his trug of freshly harvested produce gets arrested!!
I'm no wiser as to what the 'more to it' is than any of you lot! 🤣
Yeah but you seemed pretty confident in concluding that sending armed cops was excessive...
"A person will have a defence if they can prove they have a good reason or lawful authority for having the article in a public place. F"
Like walking home from the allotment where it was being used.
If you were at the allotment, maybe. Not walking back from it. He should have had them in a bag or toolbox when transporting them. As per the the manufacturer instructions above.
This has been discussed at length on kayaking forums due to concerns around carrying a safety knife for cutting lines in an emergency. The knives in question are fixed blade, less than 10cm long and often with no pointed tip. They are worn on the buoyancy aid. The conclusion was that the only way to be sure is that when in transit it is in a bag in the boot of the car. As soon as you are off the water it is stowed in a bag inside the kayak. Standing on the quayside or wandering about with it clipped to your chest not a great idea.
If you were at the allotment, maybe. Not walking back from it....
This has been discussed at length on kayaking forums
Don't get your legal analysis from kayaking forums - they've all hit their heads on underwater rocks once too many times.
The offence is possession of a weapon/bladed instrument in a public place, not display of a weapon in a public place. A person with a bladed implement in a bag is less likely to attract attention or be stopped, but they're in exactly the same legal position as someone with a bladed implement in a sheath. They're both illegal acts unless they have legal authority or good reason. If they have a good reason to possess it in the public place, then it's irrelevant whether it's been concealed.
Personally, I wouldn't walk down the street back from the tool shop with a machete on to hack back overgrowth in my garden, I'd stick it in a bag because I like a quiet life, not worrying people, and not being in circumstances where I need to speak to the police. But if I did carry it openly, I'd not being doing anything illegal.
And you've plumped for the he's neurodivergent and was bullied angle.He could just be an arrogant type and was reported by a concerned mother.
If you were at the allotment, maybe. Not walking back from it....
This has been discussed at length on kayaking forums
Don't get your legal analysis from kayaking forums - they've all hit their heads on underwater rocks once too many times.
The offence is possession of a weapon/bladed instrument in a public place, not display of a weapon in a public place. A person with a bladed implement in a bag is less likely to attract attention or be stopped, but they're in exactly the same legal position as someone with a bladed implement in a sheath. They're both illegal acts unless they have legal authority or good reason. If they have a good reason to possess it in the public place, then it's irrelevant whether it's been concealed.
Personally, I wouldn't walk down the street back from the tool shop with a machete on to hack back overgrowth in my garden, I'd stick it in a bag because I like a quiet life, not worrying people, and not being in circumstances where I need to speak to the police. But if I did carry it openly, I'd not being doing anything illegal.
Cause cycling forums are full of great legal advice!
As you say concealing it makes you far less likely to be reported by somebody who might be genuinely concerned or malicious.
Carrying it in a tool kit rather than on your belt (or in the door of a car) makes the conversation about legitimate reason to posses it a little easier.
2) it doesn't really matter because both offences have the same "good reason" defence, and whether the onus of raising it is reversed or not is irrelevant - it was always going to be raised in practice because it's the only fact in contention!
Nuanced perhaps but there’s very much a legal difference.
To win an offensive weapon offence, the prosecution must prove that the person has with him any article made, adapted or intended to cause injury. The items in question are gardening equipment. Not made or adapted to cause personal injury. So that means the person having them must be shown to have intended to so use them
A sec 139 bladed article offence is complete no matter what the intent, but the onus is on the defendant to prove good reason in order to avoid a charge, caution or conviction.
I think walking down the street with a large knife on your belt would be enough, regardless of the rest of your appearance. There is no doubt it is a knife not a trowel, Ok a gardening knife that is used in place of a trowel, but a knife all the same. The manufacturer makes it very clear in their product description
‘Knife’, in this instance, is a very loose description, based purely on the fact that it has a blade, in the same sense that a trowel has a blade, as does a shovel.
Both of those implements could easily be used as weapons, they both have edges, a trowel also has a point. Knife is really only used to distinguish a hori hori tool from a trowel because it’s narrower, and more robust, to avoid the blade from bending when used in heavy, stony soil, which is precisely why I have one - the soil in my garden, in fact everywhere around here is called brash, the topsoil layer is maybe a foot, eighteen inches deep, before turning into almost solid stone*, I’ve bent trowel blades any number of times, before I learned about the hori hori, and it’s a wonderful thing, absolutely impossible to bend or break, perfect for the ground around here. The most significant difference is the hori hori has one edge serrated, so it can saw through thick roots.
I agree he might have been well advised to not carry the thing in a belt sheath, but he’s probably in the habit of putting it into a sheath if he’s moving around a garden, to avoid putting it down somewhere then moving around and forgetting where he left it, something I’m all too familiar with doing!
*This is all too clear, where the A350 south from the M4 is being dualled along the western edge of Chippenham, and where the new section has been dug and levelled, the thin layer of soil shows why it’s bastard difficult to dig post holes for fences around here - it took me and a mate a whole day to dig five holes for a new fence, and that was using crowbars to try to break the ground up!
(Note to self - I really must go over there on the bike and take some photos for future reference, it’s seldom possible to see how thin the topsoil layer really is around here.)
It’s a knife,it’s not a loose description it’s literally a knife 🙂
Your going down the rabbit hole of the knife for peeling apples and assuming that everyone who has one will behave because you do 🙂
If you carry it in your tool bag or van adorned with tree pictures and gardening tools you normally don’t get arrested and cautioned and wandering around your garden using it won’t be a problem like your bread knife isn’t a problem until you decide to take it shopping with you 🙂
BTW I think I’ve got that very same Paul Smith er gardening shirt.
I must be out of touch with todays gardening trends as I look a right scruff in my garden attire 🙂
2) it doesn't really matter because both offences have the same "good reason" defence, and whether the onus of raising it is reversed or not is irrelevant - it was always going to be raised in practice because it's the only fact in contention!
Nuanced perhaps but there’s very much a legal difference.
It's a distinction without a difference in the case of the OP. Guy was arrested for (and supposedly according to police admitted to) offensive weapon. Change that charge to bladed implement and the prospects for successful conviction don’t change.
The only substantive question in this case is "why did D have the item?"; the same answer is determinative of the intention to cause injury element in the offensive weapon offence and the good reason defence to the bladed implement offence. The onus question is also immaterial here, as that question was always gonna come up.
On the reported facts - I find it hard to believe that CPS would have bothered picking this one up, let alone that mags would have convicted, and that if the person in OP had had proper legal advice he still would have accepted a caution. But you know, easy to say that when you're not hot and bothered and stuck in a police cell.
I must be out of touch with todays gardening trends as I look a right scruff in my garden attire 🙂
When they start banging people up for crimes against fashion, I'm sure you won't be the first in jail. This forum is an ocean of proudly worn novelty t-shirts, Asda jeans and sensible Decathlon walking boots.
or as part of a national costume.
So when wearing the kilt, us Scotsmen(and Scotswomen) can not only sport a skean dhu in our sock, but can also wear one of these on our belts.
The Scottish Dirk(usually a 12" blade)
Have a read about the kirpan traditionally carried by Sikhs. It started off around 30" (10x the min length in our legislation) and gradually shrank depending on where in the world you live.
It's been subject to countless prosecutions and appeals worldwide, some less successful than others
TBH I see little reason why "national dress" or "religious grounds" should be treated any differently (and preferential treatment is one of many people's objections to organised religion).
The Kirpan is carried symbolically as a reminder to defend the righteous. Does it need to be functional to be symbolic? If yes, a Sikh would be prepared to actually draw it "in defence" then that's literally going equipped. If no, is it less symbolic if permanently affixed into place?
As for the Scottish walking around with a "dark knife" hidden in their sock, "The law cannot of course define or regulate exactly what constitutes Scottish national dress, but casual, casual-smart daywear, formal daywear and formal evening wear are all widely recognised as falling within acceptable variants of national dress." https://www.thewhiteroseguild.com/the-sgian-dubh-and-scottish-national-dress-the-facts/
From the same site:
"Section 139 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 defines four defensible reasons in law for carrying any blade out-with that ordinarily acceptable (eg. 3″ blade length or less, folding and non-locking, such as a Swiss Army or pocket knife, these are perfectly legal to ordinarily carry). Three specific reasons stated are for religious reasons, for purpose/use at work and as part of any national dress. The fourth is for “reasonable excuse” ie. hunting, fishing, shooting, camping, etc."
It would seem odd that, as presented, the chap in the OP earned himself a caution. An Ice Bear sickle is perhaps a left-field choice for hedge trimming when he could have used, say, a hedge trimmer, but then apparently he had to explain to the police what an allotment was as they didn't know. 🤷♂️ Strange story.
but then apparently he had to explain to the police what an allotment was as they didn't know.
Probably the copper knew, but wanted the kid to explain it to see if he really knew or it was just something he'd been told to say as an excuse.
it’s not hidden - it’s displayed there as a symbol that you aren’t hiding it on your body!As for the Scottish walking around with a "dark knife" hidden in their sock
I’ve never heard any “modern” Scot using their Sgian Dubh as an actual weapon in a setting where banning them would have made any difference, have you? Similarly to Sikh symbolism. FWIW many dress Sgian Dubh are blunt (mine is probably slightly sharper than a butter knife and of course could be a weapon - but not a very good one), or even complete dummies.
TBH I see little reason why "national dress" or "religious grounds" should be treated any differently (and preferential treatment is one of many people's objections to organised religion).
TBH as a Tartan-botherer I agree, but until the nation is swept by stabbings by turban or kilt-wearing (or even worse - both - I've got my eye on you, Ranjit McSweeney!) assailants I'm having trouble giving a ****.
If we are looking for religious exceptions to review, maybe it's the one about turban wearers not needing to wear a motorcycle helmet. London, at least, has more and more delivery drivers, and more of them (including women) are wearing turbans but not helmets. Is it statistically significant or worth spending time on? I have no idea.
Based on my own actions and my observations over the past 60+ years I'd say that a Sgian Dubh worn for a wedding or other "dress" ceremony was fairly common (many are now just a handle glued to a sheath). Going to a rugby match/ceilidh/pub crawl etc I'd not take one. So, all about context. In fact, I'm at a wedding this weekend. I'll wear the Sgian Dubh for the ceremony and reception then be removing it for the celidh in the evening (I'll also be changing sporran and footwear...).
As for that other, longer, knife shown above I've never seen anybody carrying one.