[Closed] Cashless society...pros/cons

Wishing wells would fall into disrepair. And I'd miss that glorious feeling of discovering I have just enough in my pocket for a bag of chips walking home from the pub.

.If all money is traceable then money laundering would be virtually impossible.

Not really, they just use borrowed accounts. Already a big thing in schools etc, persuading some kid to lend a gang their account to launder money through. They'll always be someone vulnerable whose account they can use.

C and H, not sure how those transactions would happen...

It's interesting to see how things are changing in America on this.

The (belated) move to chip and pin, along with the headlong rush to contactless payment is making cash increasingly less relevant.

Good for the consumer, bad for staff...

In such a tip reliant economy, people are tipping less and less as they simply don't have cash to hand.

C and H, not sure how those transactions would happen…

Bitcoin, probably already is...

I suspect small-scale illegal transactions will use a proxy for cash - whatever is seen to keep its value. Probably pogs or conkers.

I've been virtually cash-less for a few years now. In fact the only PITA cash-only thing I need to buy is parking at Cwmcarn.

IMHO convenience and technology tends to lead and people follow, not the other way around, no government is going to 'ban' cash, although they've subtly started to restrict it's use for all the reasons above.

I think we'll end up with a slightly more slick, contactless version of PayPal gift for small transactions between people. They'll have to box clever though, their options will be - allow police to have access to your whole transaction history in the way they can now with your bank records (court order I believe) and accept the 'underworld' will create an anonymous sub-economy immediately, or allow small transactions to go unrecorded.

Found that cashless in America was programmed in to suggest tips to be honest CFH. First time there in decades - had the whole card + signature thing, contactless was pretty rare, chip + PIN was kind of working.

But using a card - even for a coffee + a bun - the terminal would 'suggest' a tip % - quite often start at 20%, then 22% then 18% - or I guess a custom amount but that was buried.

IMHO convenience and technology tends to lead and people follow, not the other way around, no government is going to ‘ban’ cash, although they’ve subtly started to restrict it’s use for all the reasons above.

Sweden is leading the migration centrally. They developed their own cashless swipe app, issued cards to everyone, ran training programs for the elderly - a fully joined up effort to migrate the whole population.

https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/news-insights/insight/sweden-cashless-society-and-digital-transformation

The biggest concern is what happens to those that don't have or cannot get a bank account.

Then there is the issue of every transaction being tracked, our digital footprints are scary enough as it is.

having visited hebden bridge recently and found that no cash machine in a decent radius worked i presumed they were there already 🙂

great for businesses imo.

does it really matter about your digital footprint?

and why couldnt you have an account?

It is programmed in, yes, but my experience is that people aren't tipping via their cards as much as they did with cash. Hearing this from colleagues in the US as well.

I dislike cash (partly because I keep losing notes) and try not to carry it ... £20 max inside my phone case for emergencies, otherwise everything gets paid for by phone or card.
The sooner the 'can you pay cash' bunch get stopped the better frankly. I'm sure there's aspects I haven't really considered, but that's my initial feeling.

The biggest concern is what happens to those that don’t have or cannot get a bank account.

The Swedish solution was to issue cards to everyone, so no-one is left out....

comms failure

Power failure

hardwear failure

how many places have the Card carbon copy machines lurking in the drawer and more so know how to use it.

Charity collections via tins would not be possible.

and why couldnt you have an account?

Homeless.

Will the less fortunate have their paper cups replaced by a contacless reader?...

I'd hate to see a cashless society - I love the feel of a wod of cash!

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Traceability is a good thing for governments and a bad thing for people.
Same arguments for traceability of all transactions apply as to trace and intercept communications.

It starts as a way to catch pedos, terrorists and now big tax dodgers, and then results in negative consequences for protestors, environmental activists and plumbers (while the actual pedos, terrorists and bankers etc. can afford or develop methods to work around it).

Tracability works if you trust your government, trust that they value liberty and freedom of speech, thought and association, and trust that that will never ever change.

Hands up for that one?

Personally I think that the cashless society is like the paperless office .. anybody seen one yet?

The biggest concern is what happens to those that don’t have or cannot get a bank account.

Legislation was passed post-2007 crash to ensure banks HAVE to issue accounts to everyone, no it doesn't sadly include exactly everyone as KYC regs mean you need an address, but there are workarounds.

The accounts are actually great if you are a bit anti-banks or just like things simple. You get an account and a debit card, you can't go over-drawn* and you can't be charged for anything. You get online banking and can use branches, but no over-draft, no cheques, no 'free' travel insurance etc.

In work this week we're in the process or rebuilding a pile of Laptops donated by a finance company who took them back at the end of a lease from a school. We're fitting new SSDs and keyboards (most of them missing keys). They'll be off to the Huggard Center and a few other places to provide Internet access for the homeless, this will allow them to open bank accounts (shelter is providing the address) etc.

Yep the homeless will be even more screwed.

As for bigger digital footprint, that should worry everyone, more opportunities to be hacked etc.

Also the fear of greater state control, even if you live in a benign society today, that's not a guarantee that some extremist party intent on changing how government and its peoples are run and are controlled in the future.

Anyway we won't have to worry the Royal mint has a load of 50p's to get shot of 🙂

jekkyl - I'm not expert but I don't think all money laundering is done by laundrettes. Hth.

Shove Ha'penny will be confined to the history books...

Charity collections via tins would not be possible.

RNLI are already looking into contactless for their donation collecting.

The sooner we all get chipped the better.
Let's go full digital and disconnect.

Have not used cash for most of this year, so much easier. See zero need for it for myself, also stops all the family raiding my wallet!

To be honest, I've not really missed cash.

We have the option to pay with chip and PIN, contactless or by using a service called Swish to send money to phone numbers or accounts. It all works really well. Given that we also have a means of validating identity that works with [mobile] transactions, it means that most things are a painless, seamless experience.

I like it.

I paid for a meal last week on a card and the staff using the (new) system couldn't work out how to add a tip... Not great in a business where staff rely on tips.

I'm cashless bar £20 in my Rapha clutch bag in case we end up at a cafe which doesn't take cards (yet to happen).

It opens the opportunity for payment processors / banks to start to charge you for using the Non-cash. If you view cash as a commodity and not as a token, a business you will then want to make money out of its movement. There will be a race to grab all users and then charge them. Like PayPal does.

Whereas with cash if I give you a fiver, it costs me a fiver and you get a fiver.

Thats great for users, bad for business as its a lost opportunity.

The other point is cash does not rely on other technology to work. You hand me a fiver, in person. Direct from you to me, it does not need fancy tech to verify identity or record the cr/dr etc. All that tech you use on your smartphone may look free, it isn't. Someone made it and wants to be paid for it. There is no advert on the back of the fiver that you have to look at before you spend it.

It opens the opportunity for payment processors / banks to start to charge you for using the Non-cash.

This can be regulated as are overdraft fees etc.

Yep the homeless will be even more screwed.

You're probably better setting up a direct debit to Shelter / The Trussel Trust etc rather than just handing out cash on the streets.

bad for business as its a lost opportunity

Are we ignoring the fact that businesses get charged for paying in cash/cheques, and that dealing with cash creates opportunities for errors and costs due to the time taken to handle the cash?

Cash won't go away any time soon, but it's relevance will diminish year on year.

You could still have tuppenny falls, would just require buying a tub full of coins/tokens on your way in and exchanging winnings for credit on the way out. Same principle as using casino chips or old pennies in those Victorian amusement arcades.

However, what would people throw in fountains and wishing wells? I can see this idea hasn't been thoroughly thought through.

Homeless

https://www.fintechmagazine.com/banking/hsbc-supporting-homeless-uk
It's a step in the right direction at least.

I wouldn't be able to sleep if we went cashless. Not from worry, but because there would be no padding in my mattress 🙂

The cashless, fully traceable transaction society is something I have been thinking about for a while, but in relationship to a new form of taxation. My idea is to do away with taxation in all forms and replace it with a universal purchase tax. The rates of tax payable on transactions would be capable of being changed easily in relationship to changing needs and trends. So fresh fruit and veggies might attract zero tax to encourage a healthy lifestyle while pizza and coke might be taxed at very high rates. Likewise, a luxury yacht might be taxed really high. And any money taken out of the country, would be taxed on a sliding scale to prevent off-shoring but to allow for some holiday spending cash. It might take a bit of setting up and control but could only function in a cashless society where every penny earned can be traced through the system. I guess it would only really work too if adopted on a global scale but not sure of that.

Many cities in China are already cashless aren't they and the state can access and monitor your spending and whereabouts if it wishes.Coincidentally I was in my local Post Office this morning and an alleged local drug dealer's partner came in to deposit a large amount of cash " I won the line and full house at bingo she loudly declared"

The idea that cashless will reduce money laundering is spurious.
Yep it will stop the waiting staff getting tips they don't declare or other transactions but it will do nothing for the billions the superrich launder. I very much doubt Ress Mogg is flying over to the IOM to visit Aron with 1/2M of cash in a suitcase... it's already e-fraudulently transferred

It's a terrible idea for anyone who wants to ration their spend... and contactless just extends that. You don't even need to look at the amount.

Traceability is a good thing for governments and a bad thing for people.

That. A friend of mine had her bank account locked by the government (in Germany) because someone else had used a fake number plate on a car that was the same as hers.  She was locked out until it was sorted.  I really dislike the idea of being locked out on the whim of a government.  Of course the bulk of my money is in a bank but I always want to have cash available

My world is deliberately going the other way. I was heading down a route of paying by card for everything, but it became way too easy to just ignore that I was actually spending hard earned cash. I also dont like the privacy issues associated with electronic payments.

So about a year ago I decided to pay for everything I possibly could with cash. Have to admit, I love it, though it's mighty scary how fast I burn through it.

Cash is broadly obsolete in my world these days. I carry like ten or twenty quid in my wallet (also increasingly becoming obsolete) for emergencies in case I go somewhere stuck in the 20th Century or has a minimum spend of £5. I don't carry change at all unless I've had to break that note.

But as always, the devil is in the detail. Things where you'd normally use change - donating to a charity, giving to the guy with a dog on a string outside ASDA, sending your kid to the shop for sweets - is going to become problematic. I wonder if the solution is some sort of micro-payment system, say an RFID tag on your keyring which is capped at like a quid or a fiver or something?

I limit how much I spend on a night out by using cash as it's easier to keep track of. Perhaps we, as consumers/bank customers, could have more control over our card spending?

Maybe I could set a limit on my card or in my account for how much I spend in licensed premises before I go out, just like I limit my spending by using cash.

I need the same feature for bike shops too!

Perhaps smart cards might be able to pick up balance information when I pay...a small display on the card could show how much was spent in the last hour/day etc.

To get around small payments being tracked could credit companies create cards that can be charged with a certain amount of money which doesn't get tracked back? Literally disposable cards with credit but aren't linked to my account as the credit company would be where the records stop.

I was shocked and pleasantly surprised when I was in the UK a few years back using my UK bank account. I could pay with my card for just about everything..... Using the Underground with my debit card rather than an Oyster card was a doddle. (however, my statement each month was pages long)

I've recently got a new bank card from my German bank and this time it has contactless function. Only problem is I can only use it twice a day up to 20€ at a time and the bank charges me 31 cents for each transaction (whether that is me using an ATM, transferring money, receiving money or paying with my card and all that is on top of the 6€/month for the privilege of having an account..... German banks suck phallus).

And very few outlets have a working contactless terminal. Those that do want a minimum payment of 10€.

Germany is still very much a cash society.

A friend of mine had her bank account locked by the government (in Germany)

This happens a fair bit. A friend of mine had his account frozen by the tax office because he missed a payment. Left him screwed and I ended up lending him a few grand so that he could pay his other bills.

There was something on R4 a while back talking about the consequences of a cashless economy.

Many smaller businesses said that it was a good thing as they were saving time and money by not having to count up each evening.

Many trades people, myself included, were not so keen for various reasons.

Found it.....

You and Yours - Cashless society, Street lights, Future cars - @bbcradio4 http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002zcl

I can probably recount the times I have used cash in the last five years. Would be around 3 or 4 times I would think.

I never have any in my wallet and when I do have to use it I have to go to cashpoint specifically.

Even my car parking is all via an app on phone.

both wife and I are cashless, keep getting caught out for parking and this morning felt like an arse having to walk past the charity buckets after my kids nativity....(no pay by card option!)

I've started using a revolut card (I know, I'm a terrible human being) for more of my daily spending - gives a good breakdown of what's been spent where and allows me to put a limit on "fun" money in a month.

I suppose the German thing is a bit like HMRC putting a stop on your wages (they are allowed to) but seems a bit draconian to stop you from paying for your essentials.

I always pay my barber in cash though, I'm not a complete monster.

Even my car parking is all via an app on phone.

Even that needs a bit more joined up thinking. I've parked in several different towns and cities in the last 12 months and as a result I now have half a dozen different parking payment apps on my phone.

It’s a terrible idea for anyone who wants to ration their spend… and contactless just extends that.

Easily fixed within your banking app if you pay by phone.

Many trades people, myself included, were not so keen for various the obvious reasons.

FTFY

I can see zero reason why a tradesperson 'needs' to accept cash other than to hide it. Happy to be corrected though.

Our last bank has closed. We have 2 cash points . One now charges a pound for a withdrawal. The other one consequently is always out of money.

How long before everyone is charged for the honour of using your debit card.

Once the charge is in place it will of course have to raise with inflation.

Keep cash **** the banks, **** the government.

We'll have to use paper scissors stone to decide choice of ends before sporting games?

We’ll have to use paper scissors stone to decide choice of ends before sporting games?

I seem to recall a referee being castigated for this when he'd forgotten his coin.

Against the rules apparently.

I predict a future market in ceremonial coins...

Good excuse to read My Name is Legion, all the way from 1976. Our hero is part of the team implementing the new World Bank cashless society but instead opts out destroying his identifying punch cards (Yeah for 1970's technology!).

Sorry, i read 'Cashless' and thought this thread would be a post-brext prediction 😀

As for bigger digital footprint, that should worry everyone, more opportunities to be hacked etc.

Certainly the opposite would actually be true.

Currently you can get hacked in any number of ways. Or mugged and your body dumped in the canal.

Get rid of cash and mugging becomes fairly pointless. A bit like the spike in mobile phone theft before operators started logging the serial numbers so they could be bricked remotely resulting in mobile phone theft pretty much ceasing to be a thing again.

My name is Legion (Yeah for 1970’s technology!)

🙂

When it turns even more shit for a lot of old and vulnerable people,they can always roll out the Soylent Green program.

I see it as removal of yet more personal freedom, and as already said it won't stop the bigger crooks who operate through shell companies and offshore banks anyway.

I suppose a work around would be that gift vouchers become the new cash, as after all a £20 amazon voucher or whatever can be used in the same way as cash.

Have been working recently in Norway. It's almost impossible to spend actual cash - everything from bars, to parking and bus or taxi fares is contactless. I suppose it has to be given the stupendous cost most things (£7 for a 2 mile bus journey, £32 for a burger and beer). I agree with CFH: tipping in such an environment is pretty difficult. I've managed to tip a taxi driver once in the 8 days I've spent out there. It's not that I'm mean, there just isn't the opportunity.

Culturally I suppose the Norwegians haven't an issue with the trace-ability as I believe they already openly publish the entire county's tax returns online. The IDM project I'm working on is going to directly link an employee to an open government database to verify their status, name and address.

Personally I think that the cashless society is like the paperless office .. anybody seen one yet?

I haven't seen a paperless office but I have seen plenty of cashless places. I was in Iceland (the country) last year and I didn't see a single note or coin for the week I was there.

Plenty of towns in Scotland such as Aberfeldy do not have any banks left so the high street is encouraging cashless only to prevent need for businesses to travel to bank cash.

A rural pub I visit occasionally used to be fiercely cash only, they wore it as a badge of honour. They are now totally cashless as the landlord doesn't want the time, risk or expense of dealing with cash.

Guidedogs have contactless payment jackets for fundraising dogs to wear, tap them to give £3 donation.

I could easily go for months at a time without cash if it wasn't for my daughters piano lessons with older lady in the village!

AS a negative though, I was helping the kids rugby team with a fundraising bag pack in Tesco last weekend. We raised less than in previous years as so many people did not have cash to put in the bucket.

I agree with CFH: tipping in such an environment is pretty difficult. I’ve managed to tip a taxi driver once in the 8 days I’ve spent out there. It’s not that I’m mean, there just isn’t the opportunity.

Is it the norm in Norway? I would expect everyone to be on a decent wage and thus no real need to tip.

I do wonder if that is at least part of the validation for it footflaps.

Visited Denmark (and Sweden) a bit over last couple of years, and my impression is that the living wage notion is firmly in place, so you don't feel the requirement to make up folks' wages to a reasonable level. Opposite to good old USA.

I’ve started using a revolut card (I know, I’m a terrible human being)

Why does that make you a terrible human? What have I missed?

Two pages and nobody has mentioned the principal use for a rolled up note.

less cash I'm ok with but, same as voting, technology requirements are a barrier to the poorest in society. It's not just the card EPOS, it's the management of the account that goes with it. Also bear in mind that some people (e.g. those who have SEN) don't have the numeracy facility to manage an account so take out all their money as cash when it's paid in straight away. If you are in an abusive relationship or have got out of one, cash is a safety net.

So long as there isn't a power outage... A few years back there was a power cut in the local sainsbury, cue loads of people just abandoning their full trolleys and leaving the store, those with cash were savvy enough to offer an "estimated" amount for their trolleys worth for cash. I like to keep an eye on my spending, be able to tip staff directly and not have a bank statement as long as my arm, so generally stick with cash.

You can't spend a penny in Bridgnorth.

Why does that make you a terrible human? What have I missed?

They have a somewhat dubious record on hiring practices, work environment and FCRM.

https://www.finextra.com/newsarticle/33454/tales-from-the-dark-side-of-the-revolut-revolution-cfo-resigns

https://youngmoneyblog.co.uk/revolut-whistleblowers/

I prefer cash as it's something real and validated. Take the Scottish bank notes, you know that value is guaranteed with sterling silver and not a pound of tatties as with other currency and didly squat digitally. Digital money is far too vulnerable to errors or fraud, and being frozen as others have mentioned.
Billions of pounds are laundered through London electronically by cartels and dodgy dealings annually as it's the gateway to Europe for offshore accounts. Your tax evading builder or childminder pales in comparison and at least their money is more likely to go back into the local economy instead of those who make the guys on the Forbes rich list look like paupers. The black market is the biggest market in the world and moving money digitally is a lot less conspicuous than a lorry load of dollars. Roberto Saviano said back in 2016 that this will likely rocket after Brexit as international cooperation to stop it will break down.
Anyone for a resource and skills based economy?

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/may/29/roberto-saviano-london-is-heart-of-global-financial-corruption

https://www.thevenusproject.com/resource-based-economy/

I like to keep an eye on my spending, be able to tip staff directly and not have a bank statement as long as my arm, so generally stick with cash.

you need applepay / android pay. A list of how much I've spent, and where; up on my screen instantly.
Far better than thinking, I got £50 out on monday, now I've got two tenners, and a pocket full of metal left.

Worried about the German model though, 31 cents a go will be hundreds of euros over a year. Much prefer the UK credit card model, where I get all the services for free, funded by those who can't act responsibly

An interesting point regarding age and socio-economic groups.

Option 1 - Some consider paying cash to be the mark of not being poor - you've got a pile of 20s in your pocket, therefore its yours - use a card and it could be your overdraft, or a credit card 10000's in the hole.

Option 2 - waving your card or phone at a machine shows you are certain you have the ability to pay, whereas counting the money out of your wallet is counting down what you have left for the week/month.

I'm firmly in the option 2 camp

Option 1 – Some consider paying cash to be the mark of not being poor – you’ve got a pile of 20s in your pocket, therefore its yours – use a card and it could be your overdraft, or a credit card 10000’s in the hole.

Option 2 – waving your card or phone at a machine shows you are certain you have the ability to pay, whereas counting the money out of your wallet is counting down what you have left for the week/month.

I assume those are the observations made by those who HKLP and other such delights.

If I have cash I'll use cash and if I have card I'll use card.

Sometimes on Friday I fancy a chicken kebab and a tin of full fat come from the van for lunch. Tasty tasty but cannot be done without cash in your hipper.

Pro's? Easy peasy for the consumer.
Con's? Not great for a small business.

Banks don't conduct cashless transactions for free.
Say for instance, I want a bag of crisps from the corner shop at say 75p & all I have is my debit card. Shop will pay about 10p per debit card transaction, which doesn't seem much in the grand scheme of things but when your'e running on a small turnover just to keep going.....?
I know from experience.

Cash is also not free
You pay to deposit it, you pay for change
Plus there are a load of manual processes involved each day to keep in top of it
Any discrepancy comes out of our pocket

Card payments have come a long way and now are cheap. We pay a flat rate of 1% on card payments, no minimum spend, no other fees. Plus no security worries, counting floats, trips to the bank. The money clears 2 days later.

All the ethical considerations aside, cashless is way easier for a business owner. If we were fully cashless we would save money.

It'll be a couple of years until we would consider going completely cashless, but at the moment we are about 90% card.

I would have thought cashless is much better for shops, no getting your door / window smashed for £30 worth of float in the till (our local pet shop the other week). Longer term it should lead through to lower insurance costs etc.

Card payments have come a long way and now are cheap.

Is contactless cheaper than chip and pin?

The only disadvantage I can see is that strategic infrastructure is now in purely private hands with little oversight.

Sometimes on Friday I fancy a chicken kebab and a tin of full fat come from the van for lunch. Tasty tasty but cannot be done without cash in your hipper.

No reason why the van cannot have a card reader. Well - except for the fact the van would have to declare all its takings...

I fancy a chicken kebab and a tin of full fat come from the van for lunch. Tasty tasty

I think I actually had a decent reply formulating before I read that. ****** hell...

Digital money is far too vulnerable to errors or fraud

Eh, not sure you've thought that through. Ever been short changed, or long changed? Ever worked in retail? It's very common for the till to be out at the end of the day.

And fraud? How about theft? People nick cash all the time, I believe it's quite a popular item to steal!

Molgrips, that's just pennies compared to the hundreds of thousands that can slip from your account because a fraudster has intercepted your solicitors email or has copied your card details and is buying themselves a new 3 piece suite and iPad.
It's a lot easier and safer to scam someone when you're not looking them in the face or fighting them for their handbag and it's a lot more lucrative