I can probably recount the times I have used cash in the last five years. Would be around 3 or 4 times I would think.
I never have any in my wallet and when I do have to use it I have to go to cashpoint specifically.
Even my car parking is all via an app on phone.
both wife and I are cashless, keep getting caught out for parking and this morning felt like an arse having to walk past the charity buckets after my kids nativity....(no pay by card option!)
I've started using a revolut card (I know, I'm a terrible human being) for more of my daily spending - gives a good breakdown of what's been spent where and allows me to put a limit on "fun" money in a month.
I suppose the German thing is a bit like HMRC putting a stop on your wages (they are allowed to) but seems a bit draconian to stop you from paying for your essentials.
I always pay my barber in cash though, I'm not a complete monster.
Even my car parking is all via an app on phone.
Even that needs a bit more joined up thinking. I've parked in several different towns and cities in the last 12 months and as a result I now have half a dozen different parking payment apps on my phone.
It’s a terrible idea for anyone who wants to ration their spend… and contactless just extends that.
Easily fixed within your banking app if you pay by phone.
Many trades people, myself included, were not so keen for
variousthe obvious reasons.
FTFY
I can see zero reason why a tradesperson 'needs' to accept cash other than to hide it. Happy to be corrected though.
Our last bank has closed. We have 2 cash points . One now charges a pound for a withdrawal. The other one consequently is always out of money.
How long before everyone is charged for the honour of using your debit card.
Once the charge is in place it will of course have to raise with inflation.
Keep cash **** the banks, **** the government.
We'll have to use paper scissors stone to decide choice of ends before sporting games?
We’ll have to use paper scissors stone to decide choice of ends before sporting games?
I seem to recall a referee being castigated for this when he'd forgotten his coin.
Against the rules apparently.
I predict a future market in ceremonial coins...
Good excuse to read My Name is Legion, all the way from 1976. Our hero is part of the team implementing the new World Bank cashless society but instead opts out destroying his identifying punch cards (Yeah for 1970's technology!).
Sorry, i read 'Cashless' and thought this thread would be a post-brext prediction 😀
As for bigger digital footprint, that should worry everyone, more opportunities to be hacked etc.
Certainly the opposite would actually be true.
Currently you can get hacked in any number of ways. Or mugged and your body dumped in the canal.
Get rid of cash and mugging becomes fairly pointless. A bit like the spike in mobile phone theft before operators started logging the serial numbers so they could be bricked remotely resulting in mobile phone theft pretty much ceasing to be a thing again.
My name is Legion (Yeah for 1970’s technology!)
🙂
When it turns even more shit for a lot of old and vulnerable people,they can always roll out the Soylent Green program.
I see it as removal of yet more personal freedom, and as already said it won't stop the bigger crooks who operate through shell companies and offshore banks anyway.
I suppose a work around would be that gift vouchers become the new cash, as after all a £20 amazon voucher or whatever can be used in the same way as cash.
Have been working recently in Norway. It's almost impossible to spend actual cash - everything from bars, to parking and bus or taxi fares is contactless. I suppose it has to be given the stupendous cost most things (£7 for a 2 mile bus journey, £32 for a burger and beer). I agree with CFH: tipping in such an environment is pretty difficult. I've managed to tip a taxi driver once in the 8 days I've spent out there. It's not that I'm mean, there just isn't the opportunity.
Culturally I suppose the Norwegians haven't an issue with the trace-ability as I believe they already openly publish the entire county's tax returns online. The IDM project I'm working on is going to directly link an employee to an open government database to verify their status, name and address.
Personally I think that the cashless society is like the paperless office .. anybody seen one yet?
I haven't seen a paperless office but I have seen plenty of cashless places. I was in Iceland (the country) last year and I didn't see a single note or coin for the week I was there.
Plenty of towns in Scotland such as Aberfeldy do not have any banks left so the high street is encouraging cashless only to prevent need for businesses to travel to bank cash.
A rural pub I visit occasionally used to be fiercely cash only, they wore it as a badge of honour. They are now totally cashless as the landlord doesn't want the time, risk or expense of dealing with cash.
Guidedogs have contactless payment jackets for fundraising dogs to wear, tap them to give £3 donation.
I could easily go for months at a time without cash if it wasn't for my daughters piano lessons with older lady in the village!
AS a negative though, I was helping the kids rugby team with a fundraising bag pack in Tesco last weekend. We raised less than in previous years as so many people did not have cash to put in the bucket.
I agree with CFH: tipping in such an environment is pretty difficult. I’ve managed to tip a taxi driver once in the 8 days I’ve spent out there. It’s not that I’m mean, there just isn’t the opportunity.
Is it the norm in Norway? I would expect everyone to be on a decent wage and thus no real need to tip.
I do wonder if that is at least part of the validation for it footflaps.
Visited Denmark (and Sweden) a bit over last couple of years, and my impression is that the living wage notion is firmly in place, so you don't feel the requirement to make up folks' wages to a reasonable level. Opposite to good old USA.
I’ve started using a revolut card (I know, I’m a terrible human being)
Why does that make you a terrible human? What have I missed?
Two pages and nobody has mentioned the principal use for a rolled up note.
less cash I'm ok with but, same as voting, technology requirements are a barrier to the poorest in society. It's not just the card EPOS, it's the management of the account that goes with it. Also bear in mind that some people (e.g. those who have SEN) don't have the numeracy facility to manage an account so take out all their money as cash when it's paid in straight away. If you are in an abusive relationship or have got out of one, cash is a safety net.
So long as there isn't a power outage... A few years back there was a power cut in the local sainsbury, cue loads of people just abandoning their full trolleys and leaving the store, those with cash were savvy enough to offer an "estimated" amount for their trolleys worth for cash. I like to keep an eye on my spending, be able to tip staff directly and not have a bank statement as long as my arm, so generally stick with cash.
Why does that make you a terrible human? What have I missed?
They have a somewhat dubious record on hiring practices, work environment and FCRM.
https://youngmoneyblog.co.uk/revolut-whistleblowers/
I prefer cash as it's something real and validated. Take the Scottish bank notes, you know that value is guaranteed with sterling silver and not a pound of tatties as with other currency and didly squat digitally. Digital money is far too vulnerable to errors or fraud, and being frozen as others have mentioned.
Billions of pounds are laundered through London electronically by cartels and dodgy dealings annually as it's the gateway to Europe for offshore accounts. Your tax evading builder or childminder pales in comparison and at least their money is more likely to go back into the local economy instead of those who make the guys on the Forbes rich list look like paupers. The black market is the biggest market in the world and moving money digitally is a lot less conspicuous than a lorry load of dollars. Roberto Saviano said back in 2016 that this will likely rocket after Brexit as international cooperation to stop it will break down.
Anyone for a resource and skills based economy?
https://www.thevenusproject.com/resource-based-economy/
I like to keep an eye on my spending, be able to tip staff directly and not have a bank statement as long as my arm, so generally stick with cash.
you need applepay / android pay. A list of how much I've spent, and where; up on my screen instantly.
Far better than thinking, I got £50 out on monday, now I've got two tenners, and a pocket full of metal left.
Worried about the German model though, 31 cents a go will be hundreds of euros over a year. Much prefer the UK credit card model, where I get all the services for free, funded by those who can't act responsibly
An interesting point regarding age and socio-economic groups.
Option 1 - Some consider paying cash to be the mark of not being poor - you've got a pile of 20s in your pocket, therefore its yours - use a card and it could be your overdraft, or a credit card 10000's in the hole.
Option 2 - waving your card or phone at a machine shows you are certain you have the ability to pay, whereas counting the money out of your wallet is counting down what you have left for the week/month.
I'm firmly in the option 2 camp
Option 1 – Some consider paying cash to be the mark of not being poor – you’ve got a pile of 20s in your pocket, therefore its yours – use a card and it could be your overdraft, or a credit card 10000’s in the hole.
Option 2 – waving your card or phone at a machine shows you are certain you have the ability to pay, whereas counting the money out of your wallet is counting down what you have left for the week/month.
I assume those are the observations made by those who HKLP and other such delights.
If I have cash I'll use cash and if I have card I'll use card.
Sometimes on Friday I fancy a chicken kebab and a tin of full fat come from the van for lunch. Tasty tasty but cannot be done without cash in your hipper.
Pro's? Easy peasy for the consumer.
Con's? Not great for a small business.
Banks don't conduct cashless transactions for free.
Say for instance, I want a bag of crisps from the corner shop at say 75p & all I have is my debit card. Shop will pay about 10p per debit card transaction, which doesn't seem much in the grand scheme of things but when your'e running on a small turnover just to keep going.....?
I know from experience.
Cash is also not free
You pay to deposit it, you pay for change
Plus there are a load of manual processes involved each day to keep in top of it
Any discrepancy comes out of our pocket
Card payments have come a long way and now are cheap. We pay a flat rate of 1% on card payments, no minimum spend, no other fees. Plus no security worries, counting floats, trips to the bank. The money clears 2 days later.
All the ethical considerations aside, cashless is way easier for a business owner. If we were fully cashless we would save money.
It'll be a couple of years until we would consider going completely cashless, but at the moment we are about 90% card.
I would have thought cashless is much better for shops, no getting your door / window smashed for £30 worth of float in the till (our local pet shop the other week). Longer term it should lead through to lower insurance costs etc.
Card payments have come a long way and now are cheap.
Is contactless cheaper than chip and pin?
The only disadvantage I can see is that strategic infrastructure is now in purely private hands with little oversight.
Sometimes on Friday I fancy a chicken kebab and a tin of full fat come from the van for lunch. Tasty tasty but cannot be done without cash in your hipper.
No reason why the van cannot have a card reader. Well - except for the fact the van would have to declare all its takings...
I fancy a chicken kebab and a tin of full fat come from the van for lunch. Tasty tasty
I think I actually had a decent reply formulating before I read that. ****** hell...
Digital money is far too vulnerable to errors or fraud
Eh, not sure you've thought that through. Ever been short changed, or long changed? Ever worked in retail? It's very common for the till to be out at the end of the day.
And fraud? How about theft? People nick cash all the time, I believe it's quite a popular item to steal!
Molgrips, that's just pennies compared to the hundreds of thousands that can slip from your account because a fraudster has intercepted your solicitors email or has copied your card details and is buying themselves a new 3 piece suite and iPad.
It's a lot easier and safer to scam someone when you're not looking them in the face or fighting them for their handbag and it's a lot more lucrative
No reason why the van cannot have a card reader. Well – except for the fact the van would have to declare all its takings…
Yeah if the card reader runs on gas and can store all the details of the transactions till he gets back to mobile signal.
Definitely needs some education, not just for contactless etc. but for the whole online banking and smartphone app stuff.
I managed to lock myself out of my own bank account, just by getting a new phone, letting it migrate all the apps and data, and assuming it would all be fine. An hour in the actual bank branch, in a conference call with regional support team, and eventually it was me that sussed out why it wasn't working. If the bank lady wasn't able to help and didn't have that postgrad in mobile comms and cryptography that I did 3 decades ago (and presumably they must have some kind of bank staff training course?), then christ knows how a technophobe or non-technical person from an generation before me would cope with cashless and online banking only.
There's a reason I do all online stuff with one card/account, and atm/contactless etc. with another card/account, and that is it.
Cashless in Germany is now beginning to properly catch on at last. Only really in the last year where they stop taking the card from you to insert in to the machine in many places. Or even do chip+pin but still need to sign the slip! Been able to do contactless card/phone in the turnstile to go for a dump in the motorway services since before Apple/AndroidPay was live in Germany and before contactless cards were standard issue, but in store contactless has been rare. Although I note a lot of card terminals have the contactless bit on the side of the machine and have no prominent markings as to whether it is contactless enabled. Only really the last 6 months or so where I've observed other shoppers doing contactless. Cash really does rule, but it might just be catching up with about 2015 in the UK at last. If you have to put card in, wait, type in PIN, wait, take card out, sign as well, then you may as well pay cash. I certainly paid cash a lot more than when in UK.
Is contactless cheaper than chip and pin?
Depends on your payment provider. For us it is 1.0% on any payment type, any card.
More established payment providers like Barclaycard, Worldpay etc like to bamboozle you with very complicated payment plans, monthly fees, XXp per transaction plus a percentage, more for amex, extra 5p for this and that. You have you haggle with a salesman who wants to sign you up for years. By the end of it you've got no idea what it'll cost you overall.
Newer players in the market like izettle (now owned by PayPal) make it really simple by only charging a flat rate, you buy the card reader for £30 and you're away.
You see a lot of market traders with them just running off a smartphone, so completely wireless. No reason why Trail Rats kebab van couldn't have one.
The only disadvantage I can see is that strategic infrastructure is now in purely private hands with little oversight.
Agreed, I also feel uncomfortable about that! Not just the infrastructure but the transaction data is hugely valuable given they know everything about you from your card number and smartphone. I think there is more regulation coming in the EU. Who knows if we'll follow suit.
Cashless in Germany is now beginning to properly catch on at last
Only beginning. I went for a bit of a wander round Europe this summer. In Amsterdam we found many places that simply didn't take cash at all - some only accepted Maestro, which was a bit awkward. In Berlin and Dusseldorf most places were cash only.
We were skiing in Austria last year, like going back to the 70s, everything was cash only. Never taken so much out of cash points in a week before!
No reason why Trail Rats kebab van couldn’t have one.
except that unless a friendly local business lets him have access to their wireless network he has no signal at his pitch as shown by the fact that people in the queue are forced to chat to each other rather than start into their phones.
Also an issue for the pizza horse box we use that pitches up on saturdays at a local campsite in Glendye.
and thats known constants - throw in power cuts and network outages and we will be back on tally sticks before you know it.
given they know everything about you from your card number and smartphone.
Not if you use Google Pay (I also think Revolut and maybe Apple Pay but not sure) as they create a virtual card number that is used for the transactions so your real card number is never exposed:
From Nat West:
When you add a card to Google Pay, your card details are replaced with a virtual account number. Your virtual account number is unique and will not work outside of the Google Pay app. Whenever you pay with Google Pay, it is your virtual account number that is sent, not your card details.
Pretty cool and safe!
Just been to my local petrol station. They're having some works done there, bit of remodelling the forecourt and stuff but there were prominent notices on every pump saying they were unable to take card payments, cash only. The number of people driving in, getting out the car, picking the pump nozzle and then replacing it, getting back in the car and driving off was incredible.
There was quite a queue at the station cash machine too from people who'd obviously started filling before realising. I guess for relatively large payments like fuel, people just don't have that amount of cash to hand any more.
