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flange - MemberWe have two cars that combined have 1067 bhp. One is that RS6 posted up the other day (actually my other halfs car) and its hilarious. The other is my somewhat broken M6.
Oh dear what's up with the M6, mine's in for a new fuel pump as I type.
less likely to go through a hedge backwards
How do you reckon that?
What modern cars have done is taken the limits of grip to much higher speeds. So instead of loosing grip at 40mph, you loose grip at 55mph, at which point people are not skilled enough to catch it and end up crashing.
more likely to survive it if you do
Well maybe, see above. You are likely to be crashing at a higher speed. You might not get a broken legs or arm, but you are more likely to suffer internal injuries/head injuries than you were back in the day.
I didn't really want to go into detail. I have a V6 TDi, capped off to 245ps with a 0-62 of 6.3. However, if I were to (ahem!)take my car to a certain place, it "may" produce 309ps which makes the car as fast as the 'S' version. Hence the OEM isn't going to be able to charge a premium for the 'S' version if my car mirrors it's acceleration and Vmax. This is my view.
I'm pretty certain they 'cap' bhp to allow it to run on fuel of varying quality and also ensure longevity of the engine. If you're sticking a warranty of some sort on a car you've built, you're not going to want it on the absolute threshold of what it'll produce. I had one of my cars remapped and two months later the clutch was shot and it'd done a transfer box
it may well have already been said but,, speed doesn't kill. Poor decision making kills. Equally powerful cars don't kill. Driving and making poor decisions about how to drive kills.
Also, there are no dangerous roads, just poor judgement and decisions.
I have all sorts of things in my house that can kill me varying from chemicals to electricity and a big pool of water called a bath. So far, I've not made a poor decision that's allowed any of them to kill me. Will you outlaw everything that could kill you?
Oh dear what's up with the M6, mine's in for a new fuel pump as I type.
Spun a shell, nipping it up and bending the crank in the process. If you have the V10, I'm (now) informed that you're not to run it on the 10/40 they tell you to use but use thinner stuff. Also, the new crank and rods use the same part number but are visibly different parts, much more beefy! But obviously there isn't an inherent problem with the engine and therefore no need for a recall.....bastards!
I'm pretty certain they 'cap' bhp to allow it to run on fuel of varying quality and also ensure longevity of the engine.
No, not necessarily. Loads of companies use the same engine block and just vary the turbo pressure. See the BMW 118d/120d, same engine just different turbo settings. Same with VW who do diesels with the same 2.0 block and different bhp.
Cheap way for them to make extra profit.
I would assume that the engine in an RS6 has different components to the more standard engine, at which point you would be stupid to stress the standard engine.
Also, there are no dangerous roads, just poor judgement and decisions.
This
Over the years I've seen the country lanes round my way change. Big signs to tell you there is a corner coming, grippy road surface, reduced speed limits.
Yet there are more crashes, and they keep coming. Its not the road that's dangerous, its the idiot driving it.
What modern cars have done is taken the limits of grip to much higher speeds. So instead of loosing grip at 40mph, you loose grip at 55mph, at which point people are not skilled enough to catch it and end up crashing.
You can spin this (those puns keep coming) either way:
"What modern cars have done is taken the limits of grip to much higher speeds. The proportion of drivers driving beyond that limit has therefore reduced, hence fewer accidents."
[I]flange - Member
I had one of my cars remapped and two months later the clutch was shot and it'd done a transfer box [/I]
I think there is a wide and varied spectrum of after market remapping.
Some test as OEMs do, taking many months, sometimes more than a year to test, refine and assess before releasing a product.
You pay's your money....
[I]flange - Member
Also, the new crank and rods use the same part number but are visibly different parts, much more beefy[/I]
That really shouldn't happen for a few reasons.
Ime, each time a part is revised that is only the result of a process which involves new manufacturing and so new, additional funding. Again, ime, such processes rely on issuing a new part number for what should be obvious reasons. However, whether those part numbers make it into the public domain is another issue.
But frankly no OEM should be releasing differing parts with the exact same part number. OEMs I've worked for always change either a digit or the entire part number.
Cheap way for them to make extra profit.
Intel have been doing this for years. Historically, the slower CPUs / memory were faster ones which had failed testing at those speeds. As production quality improved and yield increased they just kept the business model. TBH it's probably the only way to turn a profit; those high-end chips will be the domain of enthusiasts, your average punter isn't going to want to pay a gazillion quid for the bleeding edge.
"What modern cars have done is taken the limits of grip to much higher speeds.
And added in a load of passive and active safety stuff to boot.
I would assume that the engine in an RS6 has different components to the more standard engine, at which point you would be stupid to stress the standard engine.
Yup the RS Audi's have completely different engines, brakes, suspension, seats, body panels etc, etc to those used in any regular model. For my RS4 then apart from the basic shell, the only body panel shared with the standard A4 Avant is the roof panel and the boot - everything else is different. Same with what's under the bonnet, it does share some components with the S4 but mostly it's all different.
At a guess I'd say it's only the body shell, some interior stuff (standard VAG components, connectors, trim panels), that's the same as a regular A4.
Solo - Memberjimjam - Member
Examples pleaseI didn't really want to go into detail. I have a V6 TDi, capped off to 245ps with a 0-62 of 6.3. However, if I were to (ahem!)take my car to a certain place, it "may" produce 309ps which makes the car as fast as the 'S' version. Hence the OEM isn't going to be able to charge a premium for the 'S' version if my car mirrors it's acceleration and Vmax. This is my view.
But have you actually checked that they are EXACTLY the same apart from the engine tune? If you've checked and this is the case then I apologies but more often than not when you really scrape the surface and check what the difference are there's a myriad of them, and for good reason eg. smaller lighter turbo will fail sooner if it's doing the same work as a bigger one.
You pay's your money....
I wouldn't mind, but I did! Or at least I thought I did. It certainly wasn't cheap...
Trying to find the picture of the new shells and crank but its quite interesting how different they are. To the point where a none-technical idiot like me can tell them apart.
[I]FunkyDunc - Member
I would assume that the engine in an RS6 has different components to the more standard engine, at which point you would be stupid to stress the standard engine. [/I]
Also consider the RSX will be a low volume car, so the OEM will try to mitigate the cost of low volumes by maximizing component/assembly, commonality.
The V8 block will/should be designed to be shared with all RS cars as well as the non RS, V8 cars in that OEMs range of relevant vehicles.
It relies a lot on the business case for what you're trying to achieve.
If an OEM needs to bring something to market which provides outstanding performance power/economy, whatever. Then they can go bespoke and take the hit. But for the more main stream stuff, the share holders would like to know the OEM is doing their utmost to commonize and reduce costs where doing so makes a business case.
it may well have already been said but,, speed doesn't kill. Poor decision making kills. Equally powerful cars don't kill. Driving and making poor decisions about how to drive kills.
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people"
The engine block is just one of very many parts.
[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M12 ]BMW M12 4 cylinder block[/url]
1400hp from 1.5 litres anyone?
Based on the humble BMW M10 engine, used in 80's 3 series.
Also consider the RSX will be a low volume car, so the OEM will try to mitigate the cost of low volumes by maximizing component/assembly, commonality.
The V8 block will/should be designed to be shared with all RS cars as well as the non RS, V8 cars in that OEMs range of relevant vehicles.
To the point where apparently an AMG C63 is two AMG A45 engines joined together*
*this infofact came from a Merc salesman at the weekend, who was trying to sell me a C63 when I'd gone in there to look at the A45.....so make of that what you will...
[quote=gobuchul ]The engine block is just one of very many parts.
BMW M12 4 cylinder block
1400hp from 1.5 litres anyone?
Based on the humble BMW M10 engine, used in 80's 3 series.
However, with only a single turbo, the BMW M12 suffered from approximately 2 seconds of turbo lag
Two seconds! 😆 Amazing. I knew they were a tad on the laggy side, but that is insane.
FunkyDunc - MemberNo, not necessarily. Loads of companies use the same engine block and just vary the turbo pressure. See the BMW 118d/120d, same engine just different turbo settings. Same with VW who do diesels with the same 2.0 block and different bhp.
Are they the same though?
My old Ibiza came in 3 different engine tunes; 100, 130 & 160bhp for the 1.9TDi.
I can't remember all of the changes between them, but the 130 had a bigger turbo than the 100 as well as much bigger brakes.
The 160 (Cupra) had AP racing brakes, a larger turbo, bigger injectors and a front mounted larger intercooler, than the small side-mounted one on my 130 version.
The differences often used to come up on the SeatCupra website, because people used to assume they could buy the 100 version & map it to give the same power as the Cupra "because it's the same engine".
Same with the 130 version; you could map it to around 170bhp with no changes (although you'd normally need an uprated clutch before too long), but to go much beyond that you'd have to add a larger turbo, injectors and the FMIC. So people who were planning on going big with a re-map were encouraged to get the Cupra to start with, rather than the 130 version.
A quick google suggests that for the 2 litre VAG CR diesel, the 170bhp has a bigger turbo & more advanced multi-point injectors over the 140bhp version....
Yes.
The BLOCK is the same, but the rest of it isn't. Turbos, injectors, clutches, gear ratios...
You might not get a broken legs or arm, but you are more likely to suffer internal injuries/head injuries than you were back in the day.
Sauce? Road deaths are not higher than they were 20 years ago, despite the number (and power/speed) of vehicles increasing massively.
had one of my cars remapped and two months later the clutch was shot and it'd done a transfer box
Mate of mine co-founded BriSkoda. You'd be shocked - actually, you probably wouldn't be - about the number of conversations he's had with people over the years who've had some back-street remap or other done with very similar outcomes. As Solo says, there are remaps and there are remaps.
(As an aside, the same guy's parents live on a bend on a country back road. They average about one hot-hatch a year on its roof in their front garden, rotating gently to itself.)
Cougar - ModeratorMate of mine co-founded BriSkoda. You'd be shocked - actually, you probably wouldn't be - about the number of conversations he's had with people over the years who've had some back-street remap or other done with very similar outcomes
BriSkoda & SeatCupra.net attracted tons of Fabia vRS & Ibiza FR/Cupra fans & there were lots of
"what re-map?" posts, followed 2 weeks later by "what clutch?" posts after the OP had ignored warnings to not go for all out power, but get a good quality map that didn't just gob all the power out in one go.
People on the Seat site reckoned that Revo maps were prone to wrecking clutches, but not sure how true that was.
I warned the bloke who bought my Ibiza off me that mapping it wouldn't be a great idea. It was on 274k miles when he bought it, with its original clutch, turbo & injectors. Had a text from him about 3 weeks later saying he'd mapped it to 175bhp & the clutch was slipping in 4th, 5th & 6th. He was still pleased with the car though - had a text from him recently telling me it had sailed through the MOT!! 😆
flange - MemberOh dear what's up with the M6, mine's in for a new fuel pump as I type.
Spun a shell, nipping it up and bending the crank in the process. If you have the V10, I'm (now) informed that you're not to run it on the 10/40 they tell you to use but use thinner stuff. Also, the new crank and rods use the same part number but are visibly different parts, much more beefy! But obviously there isn't an inherent problem with the engine and therefore no need for a recall.....bastards!
The bearing issue is well known. I replaced mine as a caution. I don't think changing to thinner oil is a full answer as the Vanos pump that runs at 1000psi can have issues creating the pressure on thin oil.
Most important thing is not to push the engine until the oil is fully warm and thinned down.
Either you've been very lucky or do twelve miles a year.
Funnily enough, the more carefully I drive, the luckier I get. Yeah, I know there are accidents where one party couldn't do anything about it. Something I recently heard was the suggestion to leave a larger gap in front when a tailgater was behind, so you wouldn't have to brake so hard. My approach previously has been just to slow down until I judge the speed to be appropriate for the gap they leave. But I agree, if you're parked up and someone just drives into you, not much you can do about that. Not clear how extra power would help in that scenario.
[I]jimjam - Member
But have you actually checked that they are EXACTLY the same apart from the engine tune?[/I]
Perhaps I didn't make my point as clearly as I may have.
It's not about detailed component differences, but pricing a product in relation to it's performance and to the performance of other cars in that range. The OEM in question can't, imo, justify the price premium for an 'S model if the TDi can make the same numbers.
So, it's my belief the OEM has de-tuned the engine in my car, mostly via the ECU, to clearly differentiate between the two models and keep the number of bespoke components required, to a minimum.
Extrapolate that situation and seeing as this is a significant volume car, it would almost certainly make a better business case to use the same base engine of a higher mechanical spec for all those vehicles and then bolt on an additional turbo, use a different map obviously. But you can also de-tune that engine to "enhance" the performance of a more expensive model.
BMW are now using the same base engine and just adding a turbo or two.
While that's a simplified description, I can't explain it any more clearly than that, I'm afraid.
Funnily enough, the more carefully I drive, the luckier I get.
If you've got any sage advice as to how I can be a safer driver whilst walking across a car park with a week's shopping I'm all ears.
My approach previously has been just to slow down until I judge the speed to be appropriate for the gap they leave.
See, if you had more power you could do that and then out-accelerate them back up to the speed limit, thus creating a nice large gap behind you. (-:
Not clear how extra power would help in that scenario.
Pretty certain I gave an example of where it would - and did - in the other half of that self same post you've just quoted.
Clearly extra power wouldn't helped me in a collision when my vehicle is unoccupied, but by the same nonsense logic I might as well have all the seat belts and air bags removed as they wouldn't have helped either.
Honestly.
Can someone teach Solo how to do quotes properly, please? So much writing wasted as I can't be arsed trying to separate everything.
[I]michaelbowden - Member
Most important thing is not to push the engine until the oil is fully warm[/I]
[Threadrift]
I have "activated" the oil temp display in my car for this very reason. Nothing "happens" above 2Krpm in my car until the oil is up to temp.
[/Threadrift]
So, it's my belief the OEM has de-tuned the engine in my car, mostly via the ECU, to clearly differentiate between the two models and keep the number of bespoke components required, to a minimum.
What is your problem with this?
Even if 90% of the engine is the same, the rest of the drivetrain will be different and the interior.
As many have pointed out, there is more to selling a car than how many BHP it has. The BHP comes at a cost and the car costs more to run. Not everyone wants that.
Cars are cheaper than ever and a lot of this is due to sharing components across dozens of different models.
How many cars on based on a Ford Focus floorpan?
[I]gobuchul - Member
What is your problem with this?[/I]
No problem, I was commenting in relation to the OP, that bhps aren't only going up, but are being manipulated for business reasons.
Not an issue for me, for the reasons you point out, lower insurance, for example.
🙂
Most important thing is not to push the engine until the oil is fully warm
[Threadrift]
I have "activated" the oil temp display in my car for this very reason. Nothing "happens" above 2Krpm in my car until the oil is up to temp.
[/Threadrift]
Is that actually true any more? I remember it being accepted wisdom when I used to get in the car with my grandad but I thought modern synthetic oils / engine design had negated that these days? I've a vague recollection of Castrol using it in advertising as justification for selling it at a price point per litre somewhere between HP printer ink and unicorn semen (and of course advertising never lies).
Is that actually true any more? I remember it being accepted wisdom when I used to get in the car with my grandad but I thought modern synthetic oils / engine design had negated that these days?
Yes still true, most effective way to shorten the life of any engine (and particularly the associated turbochargers) is to hammer it from cold. You should also let a turbo car idle for a short period of time before switching it off to give the hot turbos time to spool down fully before its oil supply, supplied via the oil pump is switched off.
Variable service intervals (e.g. 20k mikes or longer) don't do cars any good either. Oil, even good modern stuff is not ideally suited to performing at its best over that period of time. Suits the manufacturers though as 20k service intervals help them sell 'low maintainence' cars to the fleet market, and so long as they get past third 3 year warranty period then they don't care any more.
before the oil supply, via the pump is switched off.
I thought the pump continued to run after the engine was switched off, until they had cooled?
[I]Cougar - Moderator
Is that actually true any more?[/I]
There will be a variation in the performance characteristic of an engine oil, which is temperature related. Couple this to extracting high output figures and I'd suggest it's best practice to be patient and get the engine oil up to temp. That can be a longer wait for a diesel, obviously, as is the case for me.
In extremis we see this with F1 cars where the vital fluids are brought to within an operation range before starting the engine, which typically there after, the engine will be working quite hard within a minute of starting.
Were I to be running a remapped car, or even a non-remapped car.... I'd be patient and wait for engine oil temp to reach operational range. Also, if the oil temp gets too far north of that range, I would ease up on the right pedal.
Possibly not to be confused with vehicles of the past using older tech oils and with stories about gearbox oils in such cars, needing to reach a temp before allowing ease of use.
I thought the pump continued to run after the engine was switched off, until they had cooled?
That'll be the aux fan, which continues to run using its own electric motor sometimes after the car is switched off. So long as the engine isn't running there won't be any coolant or oil circulating in the engine any more.
Ref turbo cooling and engine oil. I tend to ease off, several miles from the destination, to allow the turbo to cool. On occasion I've also raised the bonnet and allowed the car to idle for a few minutes, once I've parked.
Ime, once the engine stops the oil which was passing through the turbo main shaft bearings, ceases to flow. The temp of static oil/water will elevate as the metal components are still hot. In the case of the turbo I'm lead to believe this situation can burn the engine oil and leave small fragments of carbonized engine oil in the bearings.
Then at start up these fragments momentarily get dragged round inside the bearing before being flushed from the bearing and circulating through the rest of the engine.
You're unlikely to totally avoid burnt oil from occurring, but some mechanical sympathy can go a long way, imo.
If you've got any sage advice as to how I can be a safer driver whilst walking across a car park with a week's shopping I'm all ears.
I bet you had been scooting on the trolley earlier 😀
Variable service intervals (e.g. 20k mikes or longer) don't do cars any good either. Oil, even good modern stuff is not ideally suited to performing at its best over that period of time.
The variable intervals take that into account though. The interval can be a lot shorter than 10k miles as well as a lot longer.
agent007 - I think you are me from 3 years ago. I ended up moving down from the RS4 to the S4 as it was all a bit silly with fuel and very expensive things were starting to break... £900 to replace one of the DRS struts... I didn't bother with the others 3, just sold it.
That list of power to weight was interesting.
[url= http://www.autosnout.com/Car-Performance-Statistics.php?Specs&EditionID=1058 ]2006 B7 RS4 Avant[/url]
242 BHP/ton, 414 BHP
[url= http://www.autosnout.com/Car-Performance-Statistics.php?Specs&EditionID=659 ]1984 Audi Quattro[/url]
240 BHP/ton, 300 BHP
Performance very, very close too.
In ten years from now, there are going to be a lot of 250bhp+ cars on the road that are affordable for teenagers, which they won't have the experience to handle or restraint not to exploit. I can't help but wonder if now is the time to have a graded age/power licence similar to that on bikes.
I've got a little 135i, and as much as I love it, it's so quick I feel like a tit if ever I put my foot down with anybody in the vicinity...
In ten years from now, there are going to be a lot of 250bhp+ cars on the road that are affordable for teenagers, which they won't have the experience to handle or restraint not to exploit.
They might be able to afford the cars. The insurance however....
The variable intervals take that into account though. The interval can be a lot shorter than 10k miles as well as a lot longer.
Well I'm only relaying a message from a very well reputed independent specialist I use who's seen so, so many problems caused by variable (or longlife as it's normally known) servicing. Everything from minor stuff like clogged air/particulate filters, blocked oil filters to full engine failures.
Might not be apparent on a car that's a couple of years old, but I'd never touch a second hand performance car that had been serviced every 2 years or 20,000 miles. An annual oil change is essential in my book and I'd never run the oil in any car past 10k miles. Don't forget that the engine oil doesn't just lubricate the engine, it, together with the filter removes some very harmful contaminants and particles from the engine. It also might explain why I've never run into an engine problem with any of my second hand performance cars - could be coincidence, but I expect probably not.
Any particular brand?
This is known as "illusory superiority" and is a well-researched phenomenon. Something like 80% of drivers rate themselves as being above average. People also believe themselves to be less biased than others when making that assessment.
Haha; that sounds about right.
I was only jesting anyhow, I said as much two posts later.