[Closed] Car horsepower...is it just me...

[i]tomd - Member
You won't get a choice with driverless cars.[/i]
I believe there are OEMs that would disagree with you.

[i]Or you find a way to get fewer cars to transport more people faster to where they need to go.[/i]
700bhp, mini bus?

What you appear to be describing is a desire to have a car which comes with a rush hour, driverless, mode?

Yeah would be good. Drive the fun bits, then snooze when you get tired or bored.

Loud cars are what bother me. Who wants to hear some knob head making loads of noise with his car.

[quote="davidtaylforth"]I can guarantee that I'm safer travelling at 40-45mph through town (30mph speed limit) than your average driver in their average car doing 30mph (ish).

This is known as "[i]illusory superiority[/i]" and is a well-researched phenomenon. Something like 80% of drivers rate themselves as being above average. People also believe themselves to be less biased than others when making that assessment.

The bottom line is, the "right" speed and power is whatever you choose, everyone faster is a dangerous lunatic and everyone slower is a bimbling buffoon.

Whu... not even a mention of Georgie boy...?

@Sundayjumper, I suggest you look at davidtaylforth's history on here. You'll then realise what his game is (clue: lives under bridges).

Trip trap, trip trap, trip trap...

Small point here - I enjoy driving. So you can stick your driverless cars up your Google.

Yes agree 100%. I enjoy the drive to the go mountain biking as much as the biking itself sometimes.

If you don't enjoy driving, don't like cars, simply feel that getting from A to B is all it's about (in other words a chore) then why feel the need to comment on other people's discussion of a thread around car power and enjoyment?

It's like me wading into the local Beer Festival to warn people about the health and social perils of real ale, the extra strain placed on the NHS by people drinking too much real ale, and how all real ale should be limited to a maximum alcohol content of 3% for the good of the local neighborhood.

Are you still stuck behind that tractor?...

😆 😆 😆

It's like me wading into the local Beer Festival to warn people about the health and social perils of real ale, the extra strain placed on the NHS by people drinking too much real ale, and how all real ale should be limited to a maximum alcohol content of 3% for the good of the local neighborhood.

Don't give them ideas...

Small point here - I enjoy driving. So you can stick your driverless cars up your Google.

James May is full of shit and he was doing a *bit* for an unfunny comedy programme also featuring cars. Just standing behind a Countach at idle, [b]the sounds as smells awesome[/b].

Which sums up petrol head logic...

Have an electric driverless car, a loud mp3 player and show dashcams of people racing on a track as your slog out the commute in safety.

why feel the need to comment on other people's discussion of a thread around car power and enjoyment?

In fairness, this thread is about the folly of lots of horsepower. So in your analogy, it'd be like going to a debate about the merits of beer and citing those things. Quite reasonable IMO.

I would like a go in a big horse power car though. Before we are driven round by automatons.

Only managed to fit 115 horsies in my focus.

mikewsmith

James May is full of shit and he was doing a *bit* for an unfunny comedy programme also featuring cars. Just standing behind a Countach at idle, the sounds and smells are awesome.

Which sums up petrol head logic...

Have an electric driverless car, a loud mp3 player and show dashcams of people racing on a track as your slog out the commute in safety.

My point was that there's more to old cars than how practical they are to drive in 2016. My comment about the sounds and smells was one such aspect. It doesn't "sum up petrol head logic" as you put it and no, putting an mp3 player and a video screen in a car isn't the same. For anything 🙄

James May "hilariously" pointed out the impracticalities of driving a 30 year old super car (designed for the Autostrada or the Riviera) around a small English town. Completely missing the point that there's a lot more to old cars than practicality.

Cars that feel faster than they are and offer the most road/steering feedback are safest, and in my view much more desirable - someone is going to mention the GT86 now.

I am pretty content driving on the motorway in my Alfa GT (miserly 170bhp) at 70 as mostly it feels like 'the right speed'. If there's not much traffic and it is a bright day then maybe 80 feels right.

Same for 30mph in urban areas, and 40-50-60 around country lanes, where all the bends make the driving more enjoyable.

The wife has even questioned why I was only doing 20 in an area, when I pointed out the school. It wasn't a concious slow down, just an unconcious driving at the speed that seemed the correct speed for the area.

You do notice that in some areas the speed limit doesn't match the road, as a wide road makes it feel like the right speed is faster.

Noticed this as soon as I got my first Alfa 156 and drove 3 wheel sizes on the test drive of the GT to see which gave the most appropriate feedback, whilst still being reasonably comfortable for the pasenger.

no you had

the sounds as smells awesome.

putting an mp3 player and a video screen in a car isn't the same. For anything

and having had lifts from people who use phrases like these

Yes agree 100%. I enjoy the drive to the go mountain biking as much as the biking itself sometimes.

mikewsmith - Member

no you had

the sounds as smells awesome.

before your edit
that sums up the logic...

Oh shit. I made a spelling mistake. Someone call the Grammar Police, hopefully they can deduce some meaning from my garbled nonsense.

putting an mp3 player and a video screen in a car isn't the same.

As an aside, doesn't one company do this with their electric cars, pump the missing engine noise electronically through the stereo? You can even pick your engine type; "tonight Matthew I'm going to be driving the three litre V6!" Or have I just dreamt the entire thing?

I tend to not go with them again. Enjoy a track not a public road.

You only travel with people who don't like driving?

Seriously?

I tend to not go with them again. Enjoy a track not a public road.

You can 'enjoy' driving perfectly safely on a public road. Or are you disputing this? If so maybe you just aren't driving a very fun car.

You don't need 500bhp to do this however!

When people start to describe how they love to drive then go on about the twisty roads etc they tend to turn out to be the idiot throwing it into corners or taking chances or the git with leather driving gloves doing 20mph. Personal preference and experience though...

As an aside, doesn't one company do this with their electric cars, pump the missing engine noise electronically through the stereo

Volkswagen do, and probably others too.

It's interesting to note those who, on threads like this, can't separate the enjoyment of driving from risk. Those who enjoy driving aren't all on the limit, recklessly endangering everyone else who gets anywhere near them and aren't all breaking the speed limit at every opportunity in the pursuit of enjoyment. Enjoyment and safety aren't mutually exclusive, and the choice of car is a huge driver (pun intended) of the fun side.

On a different note, I drove a Pug 308 GT Line courtesy car that had a synthesised engine noise when you pressed "The Red Button". My cynicism was replaced with startled joy at how strangely satisfying the completely artificial noise was 🙂

As the OP, i'm firmly in the 'a bit more power at times is better' camp. What i don't undertand is why you will ever need more than say 300 bhp on a road car.

When people start to describe how they love to drive then go on about the twisty roads etc they tend to turn out to be the idiot throwing it into corners or taking chances or the git with leather driving gloves doing 20mph. Personal preference and experience though...

Clearly fairly limited experiance then.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you probably don't own a very exciting car if thats your attitude to folks that enjoy driving (fyi theres nothing wrong with not having an exciting car..before I get puled up by the STW police)

I love getting the roof down on a sunny day and going for a drive round Scotland. I don't go at 20mph, I don't speed, I've never had a ticket, and I've never made a claim on insurance in 23 years. But I still have great fun.

Am I the anomaly?

I loaned my mum my car for the week, she 70, and she said she absolutely loved driving it. So i guess not.

You can turn you r car radio onto AM and tune it to between a station and let it pick up interference from the engine...

Am I the anomaly?

When people start to describe how they love to drive then go on about the twisty roads etc they tend to turn out to be the idiot throwing it into corners or taking chances or the git with leather driving gloves doing 20mph.

Assuming we're not talking about boy racers under the age of 25 here, I think you'll find the "old gits" are the next most at risk group of drivers, especially as they are usually blissfully unaware of anything that's happening around them.

Personally I'd rather be driven by someone who enjoys driving, and thus is actively engaged in the task at hand. People who aren't interested in a task tend not to perform it so well...

[quote="stilltortoise"]@Sundayjumper, I suggest you look at davidtaylforth's history on here. You'll then realise what his game is (clue: lives under bridges).
Not solely aimed at him, I get the feeling most people on this thread suffer from this. Either because they have a fast car and overtake stuff (thus proving they're really good drivers), or because the stick rigidly to the speed limit and never take any risks (thus proving they're really good drivers).

David probably suffers from illusory superiority in other areas too 🙂

stilltortoise

It's interesting to note those who, on threads like this, can't separate the enjoyment of driving from risk. Those who enjoy driving aren't all on the limit, recklessly endangering everyone else who gets anywhere near them and aren't all breaking the speed limit at every opportunity in the pursuit of enjoyment.

When a tree falls and there's no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?

When a driver accelerates quickly, or does anything that might be considered enjoyable in a car, regardless of the circumstances, is he worse than a pedophile?

The answer to both questions is yes*

[i]*I don't know what the answer to the first one is. [/i]

[I]Cougar - Moderator
Or have I just dreamt the entire thing? [/I]
Nope. Ford have "endowed" the latest Focus RS with just that feature.
Although after listening to someone who's just taken delivery, it's not something the driver can de/activate.

1980's Fiesta XR2 96BHP 900kg

2013 Fiesta ST 196 BHP 1200kg

Says a lot.

Nope. Ford have "endowed" the latest Focus RS with just that feature.

Well that's just depressing. I know that VW do it with the Golf R but I thought Ford were better than that. Sadly I'm just about to get rid of my Focus ST (the old 2.5l one) that made an awesome noise and whilst the new car will be better in almost every way (more powerful, more economical, more practical) I will miss that sound.

gobuchul

Says a lot.

Makes you think.

Back to bhp. OEM's also de-tune an engine to place it's performance in their range of vehicles, commensurate to it's pricing structure.

Example;
I have a car with an engine found in a number of cars in that OEM's range. In my car that engine produces 'X' although that same engine is capable of reliably producing 'X' plus 65 bhp.
The only reason I can see for this is this way, the OEM in question can charge a premium for the faster car, which the OEM would possibly be unable to charge if my car had the additional 65bhp and identical "performance".

[quote=Solo ]Cougar - Moderator
Or have I just dreamt the entire thing?
Nope. Ford have "endowed" the latest Focus RS with just that feature.
Although after listening to someone who's just taken delivery, it's not something the driver can de/activate.

This is not unique to the F RS, it's depressingly commonplace now because turbocharged engines mostly sound like a hoover. (See also F1)

However, it is not the feature Cougar is talking about. I think he means the Renaultsport Clio, which allows switchable sound generation.

http://jalopnik.com/the-renault-clio-gives-you-the-fake-engine-sounds-of-yo-1697053915

Solo - Member

Back to bhp. OEM's also de-tune an engine to place it's performance in their range of vehicles, commensurate to it's pricing structure.

Example;
I have a car with an engine found in a number of cars in that OEM's range. In my car that engine produces 'X' although that same engine is capable of reliably producing 'X' plus 65 bhp.
The only reason I can see for this is this way, the OEM in question can charge a premium for the faster car, which the OEM would possibly be unable to charge if my car had the additional 65bhp and identical "performance".

Examples please. Otherwise I'll assume you're just ignoring the fact that the more powerful car probably has a different injectors, bigger (or better) turbo and associated ancillaries and it probably has bigger or better brakes (eg discs on the rear as opposed to drums) etc etc etc.

[I]gonefishin - Member
I will miss that sound.
[/I]
I've heard folk lament the passing of the 5 cyl engine in that car.
Can't say I'm familiar with it, myself.

However, as well as agreeing with our comment about what Ford have done to the Focus RS. I also has a confuse on this issue as the car has had it's engine specifically adjusted to make a few pops and bangs, naturally. Weird by the sounds of it. I think that should have either left the sound enhancement off or at least given the driver the option to deactivate it.

OEM's also de-tune an engine to place it's performance in their range of vehicles, commensurate to it's pricing structure.

I have a 118d and I gather the only difference* between it and the 120d is the engine tuning.

*well, perhaps not the only difference, but the point is that the same engine performance is possible out of the 118d as the 120d simply by tuning/mapping

The only reason I can see for this is this way, the OEM in question can charge a premium for the faster car,

Playing devil's advocate, I suppose potentially a beefier engine may require upgraded components in other areas to cope with the extra force?

I think he means the Renaultsport Clio, which allows switchable sound generation.

Could well be. It was that sort of system I was meaning, at any rate.

Back to bhp. OEM's also de-tune an engine to place it's performance in their range of vehicles, commensurate to it's pricing structure.

Makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

Less development and production costs for the OEM, just a different ECU.

As above, performance version will have other enhancements that add to cost, brakes, tyres, wheels interior etc.

Customer who doesn't need or want the extra HP gets a more economical car to insure, run and maintain. Possibly lower emissions/lower VED as well.

[I]retro83 - Member
However, it is not the feature Cougar is talking about. I think he means the Renaultsport Clio, which allows switchable sound generation.
[/I]

Not sure the issue is whether the feature is switchable or no. But rather that OEMs think it desirable to play you a sound track rather than allowing the car to make it's own sound, unadulterated by the stereo.
In the case of the Focus RS, the sound system actively cancels some sounds and places other sounds in there.

Make of that what you will.

[quote=gobuchul ]1980's Fiesta XR2 96BHP 900kg
2013 Fiesta ST 196 BHP 1200kg
Says a lot.

63% more power/weight
less likely to go through a hedge backwards
more likely to survive it if you do

We have two cars that combined have 1067 bhp. One is that RS6 posted up the other day (actually my other halfs car) and its hilarious. The other is my somewhat broken M6.

I don't need either of them, but they're good fun to drive when I get the chance ( I ride to work, or get the train so they're weekend only). To properly get the best out of them you need to take them on a (big) track. I've driven both the ring and Spa quite a few times and its only then that you can properly open it up (more so at Spa, I still don't know which way the Nurbergring goes after quite a few laps). Duel carriage ways are the only real place you can put your foot down with a somewhat clear conscience and then you run the risk of being pulled. I'd not dare do it on the back roads round our way - too many horses, cyclist and tractors.

Fact is, I doubt such cars will be available or viable in the next ten years and if you can afford it now then why not?

[I]jimjam - Member
Examples please
[/I]
I didn't really want to go into detail. I have a V6 TDi, capped off to 245ps with a 0-62 of 6.3. However, if I were to (ahem!)take my car to a certain place, it "may" produce 309ps which makes the car as fast as the 'S' version. Hence the OEM isn't going to be able to charge a premium for the 'S' version if my car mirrors it's acceleration and Vmax. This is my view.

[I]Cougar - Moderator
Playing devil's advocate, I suppose potentially a beefier engine may require upgraded components in other areas to cope with the extra force?
[/I]
This is a slightly different issue. In this case the same OEM can get 309ps from my Engine, but decided to place a biturbo onto what is likely to be as close a match to my engine as it can, to get 326ps.
Again this is the output for the 'S' version.

It's about maximizing margin while minimizing costs.
One [b]base[/b] engine, designed to reliably produce higher outputs can have it's higher cost mitigated if you sell a higher quantity of that engine, where you can adjust performance via the ECU and a minimum degree of differing ancillary components.

flange

Fact is, I doubt such cars will be available or viable in the next ten years and if you can afford it now then why not?

[img] [/img]

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/09/26/googles-self-driving-car-involved-in-serious-crash-after-van-jum/ ]Yay for the autonomous car![/url]
Personally I'd have liked to have been in charge in this situation, accident free for 30 years and counting.