Bruk
And I tell you again. Its a choice to live in a way that requires a car.
A CHOICE
Most people do not need a car. Elf is right
This thread is useless without SBZ, who if i recall correctly went from a job right in the middle of the motor industry (with his famous zillion miles per year in a car :lol:) to not having a car in the family at all. Despite having nippers and both him and mrs working/studying/training. It would be interesting to hear how the SBZ family get along.
FWIW, we live a broadly similar life in terms of jobs and nippers, both of us ride to work and walk kids to (thankfully only 15 minute walk away) school and manage not to drive our car at all about three days in seven. Don't know how we'd do zero days out of seven though.
The major problem is lack of new capacity on the railways, and traffic congestion in towns, if we could re create the Busways of Runcorn, a town built around a circular deditated bus route,on dedicated roads,with no cars or other vehicles then that would be a start.
I'm happy for you to stand by your statement Elf. Still doesn't make it right though.
No I think you'll find the fact that I am making it [i]does[/i] actually make it right. Sorry, but that's how it is I'm afraid.
What I am disputing is Elf's assertion that the most people don't need a car.
[b]Most[/b] people don't [b]need[/b] a car.
Simples.
Humanity managed to evolve and exist for thousands and thousands of years previous to the last what, 70-80 years of cars being widely available.
You only [i]think[/i] you need a car, truth is that most of you really, really don't. It's just that you're too blinkered and in a state of denial to accept it. Of course you will scream 'til you're blue in the face that you need your car, but ultimately, it doesn't change the fact that I am right.
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13627199 ]Oh and BBC agreeth with I.[/url]
TJ no need to SHOUT.
In your Utopian world everyone can choose to work near enough their job to commute by bike/public transport. In the real world however even people like Julianwilson who try their very best to go carless struggle.
Even you hire a car occaisonally!
Elf, if we want to return to before the war then yes you are right we don't [b]need[/b] cars. How many people would want that and how would the economy do without the mobility that is now present.
Its still remains a fact that its the choices you make that dictate the requirements for a car. You choose to live and work in the places you do, its not a need. Its a choice for the vast majority.
Ok so, from the Office for National Statistics, and DoT:
[/url]How far do people travel to work?
• The average length of a commuting trip increased by 6%, from 8.2 miles in 1995/97 to 8.7 miles in 2005.
• Men travel 10.5 miles to work on average, 67% further than women (6.3 miles).
• People living in the most rural areas travel furthest to work on average (11.3 miles), while those in major cities outside London travel the shortest distance on average (6.5 miles). London residents travel 8.0 miles.
• People from households in the highest income quintile travel more than twice as far to work on average (12.3 miles) as those in the lowest income quintile (5.8 miles).
• The average length of a business trip is 19.4 miles.
So, an awful lot of people don't travel more than a few miles in to work, according to this data. Within cycling distance, for sure, for a lot of them. And Certainly within bus/train/tube etc distance.
Sos sorry, but the 'I need my car' argument is an invalid one, in most cases.
See? Told you I was right... 8)
How many people work shifts? 17 % Try getting the bus to start your shift at 6am.
[url= http://www.thesite.org/workandstudy/working/workwelfare/nightshifts ]shift workers[/url]
Even if you only have to travel 8.7 miles (the average you quote) that becomes tricky. Choose another job I hear you say? What if that is all that is avaialable to you?
I don't need a car to get to my office (it's only 3.5 miles away so I can and have walked there), however I do need a car for work.
What if what if what if...
[img] 
[/img]
I need a car for shopping, how else am I supposed to get all those food filled Tesco bags home, certainly not on the bus with the rest of the riff-raff
elf
And Certainly within bus/train/tube etc distance.
if there is a bus, which more often than not there isn't, remember london is not the UK.
Yes far to many people do drive when they don't need to, but doesn't alter the fact that "public" transport is crap in most of the UK
bloodynora - Member
I need a car for shopping, how else am I supposed to get all those food filled Tesco bags home, certainly not on the bus with the rest of the riff-raffPosted 2 minutes ago # Report-Post
Tesco do deliveries.
Yes far too many people do drive when they don't need to
Ah, now we're getting somewhere at last...
Just nipping out to Co-Op to get some mushrooms. I'll walk, as it's only 1/2 a mile away. That doesn't stop some lazy arsed buggers who live by me driving there and back though. Seriously.
Sorry Elf if you think that a very quick google for some figures is clutching at straws.
Arguing with you or TJ is like arguing with this chap[img] 
[/img]
Elf, i can beat that, i have known people drive to the corner shop, on the end of the same street!!!!!!
My point is that for most people they work where they can and any job is better than no job. If you are in London commuting is possible by public transport but for the vast majority of the UK it is not possible as there is nothing there. You can walk, cycle or drive. As your figures show most journeys are over 8.7miles that is for the average person a fair distance to cycle and realistically your not going to walk 9miles before and after work everyday are you?
Mrmo - the majority of people live and work in urban areas where public transport is quite feasible. Its often more feasable than people will accept even outside of these.
You confuse the middleclass commuter with the average person.
the majority of commuter journeys in Edinburgh are not buy car
TJ, most people do not live in urban areas where public transport is feasible.
As a nurse i would have thought you would have done shifts and been faced with there being no bus home when the night shift finished? Or to be faced with the fact that the last bus has gone before your shift began.
I would have thought you would have worked christmas day and discovered that there are no buses, that taxis cost a fortune, a good few hours pay, if you can find one.
Who said anything about middle-class? most factories are built outside residential areas on green field estates with very limited public transport.
shift work has never been an issue for me with timing - I cycle. Nor has bus usuage been an issue for the people I work with
Yes the majority of people do live and work in urban areas - dinnae be daft laddie. are you really trying to claim that most people live in the countryside?
Many years ago, industry was built in locations near to the working classes, and if not transport was usually provided, workmens services.
Now the inner city and town areas that once housed the factories are either being closed down or moved to further afield to new sites, hat are being developed, so people need to be able to travel to get to work, to run a profitable bus or train service to serve all these places is not possible.
Also a bus picking up at the factory /office with 75 seats,theyre nmot all going to the same destinationn as home, so by the time youve dropped each one off near to home, the last one on has had a massive ride round the countryside, and is he expected to pay for the fuel, when a bus does about 7 or 8 mpg.
most people do not live in big cities most people live in smaller towns and cities, most people do not live in the countryside.
Most people live in places with crap public transport.
You must be very lucky to live somewhere buses run on christmas day, where you can get to work on a bank holiday. I know plenty of people who will not cycle because they are scared of traffic, and for some with good reason, which is why saying you cycle and so getting to work on christmas day is not a problem is avoiding the statement.
mrmo utter rubbish - most people live in urban areas where the public transport is fine.
As for christmas day - I have worked christmas day for many years - employers arrange transport for the staff who would normally bus it in. Bank holiday is no issue as buses still run. Its simply not the issue you think it is. the only days of no buses are christmas day and new years day. bank holidays are a sunday service and its no issue.
Introduction
Nearly eight of every ten people in the United Kingdom lived in
an urban area in 2001, according to the most recent definition
of the term. Urban areas covered 8.9 per cent of the UK’s land
mass at that time.
Nearly 41 per cent of urban dwellers lived in one of the ten
most populous urban areas. They accounted for 19,024,665
people or 32.4 per cent of the UK’s population.
The ten most populous urban areas in the UK are:
• Greater London Urban Area
• West Midlands Urban Area
• Greater Manchester Urban Area
• West Yorkshire Urban Area
• Greater Glasgow
• Tyneside
• Liverpool Urban Area
• Nottingham Urban Area
• Sheffield Urban Area
• Bristol Urban Area.
A bus that runs on Christmas day 😯 I'd love one just to run on a Sunday 😉
Public transport in London's not always as good as its cracked up. Its OK if you're fairly central and only want to do short trips. We're just inside the M25, which for practical purposes is London. I usually do work calls into London on public transport, it works OK in the day, First Crapital Connect permitting. However if we want a night out in town and don't want to spend ages waiting at bus stops or on platforms its easier to drive - don't like having to do it, but that's the way it is. The night life goes on late but the public transport doesn't.
Unfortunatly this tgrrad like many before it has turned into abun fight.
I would love to travel by publictransport but itsjust too expensive. I dont mean personally but when im justifing costs to my business and an astra is £13 a day plusfuel but a train is some randomlymade up price tbe astra has it, even if i would rather take the train.
Sorry for tbe spelling sat in a bar somewhere hot. xx
Ian
Arguing with you or TJ is like arguing with this chap
Equally, we could say the same about some of youse.
Except that we're actually right.
You've not backed up any of your claims with any facts or real solid evidence. We have. I think the facts speak for themselves, quite frankly.
As your figures show most journeys are over 8.7miles
Eh? where do they show that? How have you arived at that conclusion?
Seeing as how a smaller number of much longer daily commute journeys will push the average up, I'd suggest that most journey's could well be [i]below[/i] the average length.
Most people live in places with crap public transport.
Again, where is your [b]evidence[/b] to support such a claim? Seems nothing more than your onion, tbh.
As your figures show most journeys are over 8.7miles
explain to me what the phrase average commute is in excess of 8.7 miles
Elf ,
Your overuse of this space devalues its credibility, why not take a break?
Ian xx
Ooh, and a Merry Christmas to you too, IanW! 🙂
(I have no idea what you're wibbling on about though. Not that I care, mind, you understand...)
[img] 
[/img]
explain to me what the phrase average commute is in excess of 8.7 miles
As the actress said to the bishop; come again?
Ok so, from the Office for National Statistics, and DoT:How far do people travel to work?
• The average length of a commuting trip increased by 6%, from 8.2 miles in 1995/97 to 8.7 miles in 2005.
• Men travel 10.5 miles to work on average, 67% further than women (6.3 miles).
• People living in the most rural areas travel furthest to work on average (11.3 miles), while those in major cities outside London travel the shortest distance on average (6.5 miles). London residents travel 8.0 miles.
• People from households in the highest income quintile travel more than twice as far to work on average (12.3 miles) as those in the lowest income quintile (5.8 miles).
• The average length of a business trip is 19.4 miles.
So, an awful lot of people don't travel more than a few miles in to work, according to this data. Within cycling distance, for sure, for a lot of them. And Certainly within bus/train/tube etc distance.Sos sorry, but the 'I need my car' argument is an invalid one, in most cases.
See? Told you I was right...
Elf, do you actual bother to read what you post, I suggest next time you actually read what you are posting, it i quite clear that the average commute in 2005 is 8.7miles. The average! Of course there is the minor detail of what they mean by average, the mode, the median, who knows, the assumption i suspect they are relying upon is that the distance travelled by the 50% percentile is 8.7miles. per direction per day. I could make a further point that the average time is 45mins which supports the 8.7 being each way and not a daily total.
Most people live in places with crap public transport.
I disagree based on the places I've lived in and used the public transport of. I think you're just expecting too much from public transport. It will not in most instances be more convenient than a car, unless you live in a large city. Thats WHY large cities have better public transport.
Having said that, I'm happy with the service I get here in Salisbury. I'm 5 miles from the city and pay £12 a week for a bus pass that'll get me plenty of places that are a similar distance away. When I was fit it was irrelevant anyway as I rode everywhere.
I see too many people on here seemingly complaining that there isn't a bus that will take them from their house to a mate 8 miles away, at 9pm, for 50 pence and the like. And then claiming that makes public transport crap!
Just had a day out in York. Cost £12 to park next to the train station for 6 hours. Train tickets are about £7 each return (to our station just outside Harrogate that has free parking). Allowing for fuel costs and wear & tear I reckon public transport works out cheaper by quite a bit.
Elf, do you actual bother to read what you post
Sometimes... 🙂
Of course there is the minor detail of what they mean by average, the mode, the median, who knows
Ah I see what you're getting at now you din't make it all that clear to be fair.
I'm assuming that it's an overall [i]mean[/i] average. But as you quite rightly say, who knows?
I woon't have thought that the majority of journeys fell above the average figure though.
I would say though that if it is an absolute mean average then some journeys will be over wunundred miles each way, but only a tiny fraction, and many many journeys will be very short maybe even under a mile. I think it's reasonable to assume such a thing.
Tagliatelli with garlicky chicken, mushrooms and broccoli....
It's Congestion Charge Exempt! 🙂
Elf your figures show that the average journey time is 8.7 miles and 45 mins in length.
They also show that outside of London 76% of journeys are by car. That alone tells you something.
I could tell you how it isn't possible for me to get to work by bus given my shift patterns or my wife either but you would just reply that is just 1 case.
Proving the lack of available public transport across the rest of the UK excluding the capitals where you and TJ both reside isn't simple. Proving the lack of existence of something is always more difficult, ask the chap I pictured!
We all agree that lazy people use their cars inappropriately but to say that most of them could do without them entirely is blinkered.
which is why you carry on reading Elf and you will see mention of distance by Quintile. the top 20% of the population by income commute an average 12.3 miles and the lowest 20% commute 5.8miles. and if you read a bit more the average rural commute is 11.3 miles.
Do you see a pattern here, most people travel stupid distances to get to work. The old method of living in tied cottages has long gone. The days of a town all being employed by the steel works or coal mine are long dead. You go where you can get work, our whole society is being developed as car dependent.
Why are shopping centres not built near housing? why are business parks not near housing? each exists in its own little planning zone, but no thought goes in to how you get from one to the other.
[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/sep/02/sciencenews.transportintheuk ][/url]http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/sep/02/sciencenews.transportintheuk
suggests that quality of life in cities might not be all that it is cracked up to be if those with the most money are those that travel furthest, 800,000 traveling more than 30miles each way.
Don't get me wrong i think it is a stupid way to spend your life, and i don't think it is sustainable in the medium term with the rising cost of living.
Its quite simple why would you want to go on a bus when you can afford and run a car! End off. Get in car drive to work. Or go catch a a bus at 5am I know when I used to have to be in work for around 5.30am a bus was not even an option as there simply wasn't any at that time. As for cycling to work well lets just say someone cycling even 5 miles and then polishing a seat with there ass for 8 hours after cycling in. is a bit different from say some person cycling in and then having to be on there feet 8 hours a day in a warehouse or a job of that ilk.
Or even worse 12 hours in a steel works than a nice ride back of god knows how many miles. I suppose if you work in an office like the masses do on here, then a nice commute home is the only thing you do all day that involves any other exercise than climbing to the Tea caddy every 30 minutes.
So telling someone they should catch a train or go on a bus when they work daft hours doesn't cut the mustard. even less so when you mention cycling to work. Not to mention a lot of places at work you can't even find anywhere to put your bike. So then its going to get nicked you just know that.
The fact the tax payer / government subsidise the rail network to the tune of £5-6 Billion a year makes me sad!! 😐
The fact the tax payer / government subsidise the rail network to the tune of £5-6 Billion a year makes me sad!!
why?
Roads are subsidised, planes are subsidised why shouldn't trains
not really comparable thought are they?
my personal experience with Merseyrail & Virgin on the west coast mainline, neither are that bad, but neither are better than driving... and neither are cheaper, so unless its work, I drive!
Its quite simple why would you want to go on a bus when you can afford and run a car!
I can use the bus when pished. I can browse the net, read a paper, make a phone call. I can relax and take in the world outside, or the view inside 😉 I do actually hate driving as well, which is a big factor for me. When I was riding there wasn't a massive difference between cycling and driving to work. The bus takes about 20 minutes longer because there's a nice walk at either end. I chose to live within 5 miles of work and near bus routes though. Other people don't make those choices then insist public transport doesn't fit their needs.
I can afford a car, but like you and everyone else on here funds are not limitless, I just choose to spend that money on other things. Last year I went here:
[img] 
[/img]
I could get to work (5 miles away) for £10 a week on the bus (weekly ticket) or train (subsidized line) if I didnt already have a free pass from work but I tend to use the car or ride in on earlies as it gives me an extra 10 mins in bed.
I also hardly ever drive outside of work anymore and find days going out on days off far more relaxing when my eyes are not tied to the road.
If the car wasnt there I would happily use PT/cycle full time, OH won't give up the car though.
Daft thing is that between my parents, who live next door, and ourselves we have two cars doing less than 5k a year total.
seth-enslow666 - MemberIts quite simple why would you want to go on a bus when you can afford and run a car!
Sleep. Read. Don't have to find a parking space.
[img] 
[/img]
It's loads cheaper than driving if you have the inclination to make the switch..
there is some herbert on here who swears he did a spreadsheet and compared the price difference between the two and factored in everything up to and including rate of wear on wheel bearings during the lifespan of his car offset against the chances of getting a seat on the train during rush hour while the edinburgh fringe festival is on.. but he is an habitual petrolhead and in all likelihood a car obsessed fantasist..
do it.. sell your car.. they are crap.. seriously
[img] .JPG)
[/img]
RichPenny- is that Cradle Mountain?
They also show that outside of London 76% of journeys are by car. That alone tells you something.
It does, but it's not that you need a car.
And all the people here highlighting the exceptions and extremes doesn't change the fact that [i]most[/i] people- not [i]every single person in the country[/i] could get by quite well without their cars. As somebody else said you just need to accept that there won't be a bus going past your front door every 5 minutes 24 hrs a day and adjust accordingly.
