Not the people I know, if we are talking motorway miles >60mph …
but that doesn’t mean that’s how the car is used on a daily basis/mostly.
I'm afraid anecdote still doesn't trump data.
Your lifetime chance of dying in a transportation accident in the UK is 1 in 240. If you can make that 1 in 400 by buying an SUV, and you can afford it, then maybe it’s something sensible to think about.
is it fcsk. in the UK there are around 1500 road deaths per year, and pretty much zero deaths for any other mode of transport. Lets say 1600 per year to be fair. The average lifespan is what - 70 years? so if we all lived for the same 70 year period, there would be 112,000 of us dying by transport. Over the same period, 68,000,000 of us would die some other way, meaning there's a 1-in-650 chance. car deaths are even less likely - 680 car occupant deaths per year, which is about 0.1% (or 1-in-1000) chance of dying that way.
Points: Older people find an suv easier to get into and drive. My grandpa and great uncle were both in their early 80's before giving up driving, both owned mini metros.
It's easier for families to enjoy long journeys. Blimey as children and a family of 5, we drove to France in a ford sierra.
How on earth did we all manage?
It’s easier for families to enjoy long journeys. Blimey as children and a family of 5, we drove to France in a ford sierra.
LOL, my neighbours when i was a kid used to tour/camp their way round europe every summer in a mini, then later a panda and a fiesta.
On the plus side, the dog was only a spaniel. Nothing bigger.
How on earth did we all manage?
We didn't have a choice, just because they put up with old cars when that was all they had, doesn't mean they were the most suitable given better choices. They probably didn't have central heating or double glazing for most of their lives, does that mean that those modern conveniences should now not be available?
Maybe we should go back to a simpler life, it would be much, much better for the environment.
Got any ideas how to do that?
It's easy to say, but there's a lot to unpick there. Our jobs depend on the consumption that is created by the jobs that are complicating our lives.
Pandora's box was opened some time ago.
680 car occupant deaths per year, which is about 0.1% (or 1-in-1000) chance of dying that way.
.... And that's because cars have become safer - but that safety has come partly as a result of extra the weight and size of modern vehicles.
Did no-one look at the data I posted?
took it from here @5lab:
http://www.bandolier.org.uk/booth/Risk/trasnsportpop.html
The lifetime risk of dying in a transport accident is remarkably high - with most of the risk coming from road traffic accidents. While the risk of dying in a road accident in any year in the UK approaches 1 in 20,000, the lifetime risk is 1 in 240.
Either way - 1 in 240 by car in 2004.
But who cares? Even if your made up figures are right buying an SUV looks to be a significant upgrade on your personal safety.
Maybe we should go back to a simpler life, it would be much, much better for the environment.
What's the criteria for those who will be killed / sacrificed / allowed to wither away?
I balance out the safety of my XC90 by also owning a Mk1 Berlingo that doesn't have ABS and generally has the same crash protection as a wet tissue box.
Either way – 1 in 240 by car in 2004.
But who cares? Even if your made up figures are right buying an SUV looks to be a significant upgrade on your personal safety.
my figures aren't made up, they're sourced from the government, based on 2021 data, not 2004. 20 year old data is useless, as cars are getting way safer. Look at the trend here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reported_Road_Casualties_Great_Britain - we're way under half the number from 20 years ago, despite the population growing significantly
lets say that SUVs reduce your chance of death by 10% (I don't think they do, but maybe they do). with a 1-in-100,000 chance of getting killed in a car next year, assuming you're in your own car maybe 75% of the time that you are in a car, you are reducing your chances to 1-in-107,500 chance. That's a 0.00075% increase in safety - which is basically noise. There are way smaller changes that have a way bigger impact on your life expectancy -than that - for example - if you do 2 journeys a day, skipping one of those journeys, one day, would have a 0.14% chance of improving your safety - or a 200 TIMES better outcome. So you could skip one journey, once in your entire life, and still have a 3x better outcome on your life expectancy than driving an SUV every single day.
And if I was a yummy mummy I’d be telling you to gamble with your own kids…
Good point. Best to err on the side of caution and get a F-150 imported
Sod anyone else on the road and especially sod any pedestrians and cyclists its designed to nicely flatten.
Better hope people dont engage in the arms race further and get an F-450 imported though.
Better hope people dont engage in the arms race further and get an F-450 imported though.
pfft. go big or go home.
Last decades MPV now the SUV next APC.
Sod anyone else on the road and especially sod any pedestrians and cyclists its designed to nicely flatten.
Yes, I’m sure that is high up on the designers list of features when they make these things 🙄
Yes, I’m sure that is high up on the designers list of features when they make these thing
I am sure that was a devastating response in your mind.
The slight flaw in it is I didnt say it was intentionally that way but simply how its designed. All the normal cars have had years of designs to try and ensure pedestrians etc stand a better chance. The basic design of suvs removes a lot of the options.
Admittedly most of the studies are US based where the suvs are even more stupidly sized but they all show an increased risk to everyone else on the road.
@everyone your friendly reminder that @chevychase is a contrary troll that just picks his arguments to suit whoever he is trying to wind up.
This is the environmentalist that encourages everyone to invest in crypto, the SUV hater that hates eBikes etc. etc. etc.
@molgrips and @TheBrick - When I mentioned having a 'simpler lifestyle', it wasn't about suv vehicles, it was a comment about just thinking a little more about things we do everyday. I have a neighbour who has a massive porsche, she nips to the shops at least 3 times a day, firing up the stupidly large engine, pumping out goodness know what pollutants into the air, shops are a 5 minute walk away. Other neighbours walk or cycle this short distance. No safety issues. Just a case of rethinking how we live. This is a thread about suv vehicles, my thoughts re how we can live a 'slightly' simpler life need another thread.
mert
I’m afraid anecdote still doesn’t trump data.
Add to the data... have a guess what your average speed is (hopefully you don't know so you can guess) and then check, ask a few mates etc. Have a guess what you think the UK average speed in a car is as well.
I'm honestly surprised with mine ... I'd have guessed higher as I don't drive locally (<10m) with any frequency at all.
Are cat regen failure figures are anecdotal... ???
But anyway.. show me the data showing some sort of speed/miles figures...
A quick look shows
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/uk-road-traffic-all-time-high
British drivers averaged 25.5mph over the past 12 months
Given my actual reading (whatever its measuring) that seems quite likely...
So if we take <30mph being the mean speed, cross sectional area is really not that important... (that is not even taking into account that the people dragging that figure up are more likely to be driving more aerodynamic cars you claim is anecdotal... )
This is the environmentalist that encourages everyone to invest in crypto, the SUV hater that hates eBikes etc. etc. etc.
Very weird statement coming from someone pretending to care about climate change and against nuclear power???
have a guess what your average speed is
Mine seems to be 42mph.
weeksy
Mine seems to be 42mph.
Out of interest what would you have guessed ?
TBH mate i check it about once a month when scrolling through to see my average fuel consumption, so i pretty much knew what it would be. The vast majority of my driving is A roads and M'ways. I rarely travel locally and rarely travel in rush hours, so i'm likely to be fairly unusual.
North amercia centric, but still:
(82) These Stupid Trucks are Literally Killing Us - YouTube
Crocodiles in trees...
as an aside Not Just Bikes do some excellent vids
weeksy
TBH mate i check it about once a month when scrolling through to see my average fuel consumption, so i pretty much knew what it would be. The vast majority of my driving is A roads and M’ways. I rarely travel locally and rarely travel in rush hours, so i’m likely to be fairly unusual.
I thought I'd be higher than I was just based on driving I remember.
Even places I think of as mainly motorway/dual carriageway journeys are lower average speed than I think of them.
An example I just checked google and from home to Swinley parking is 12.5 miles and 30 mins... in my memory this journey is dominated by the A322 between the M3 and Swinley... or that's where I'd think most of the distance is covered but the reality according to google is that's only just under 4 miles and overall its 25mph out of rushhour.
(I don't go to Swinley that often (maybe once a fortnight) but just an example of how I think of a journey vs the reality and not rush hour)
Has anyone mentioned the correlation between SUV ownership and the complete inability to reverse park?
Watching our neighbour trying to reverse park her big, daft Range Rover Evoque (the ideal vehicle to use exclusively for popping to the nearby shops when you live on a narrow terraced street) is absolute comedy gold. After the usual 20 or so attempts, it invariably ends up looking like its been abandoned after a bank job 😂
This seems to be a very common affliction with the owners of these garish, oversized monstrosities
Has anyone mentioned the correlation between SUV ownership and the complete inability to reverse park?
...you should see my wife smoothly back a horse trailer into a tight space while weaving between farm machinery! It'd take me about 2 hours of shunting! 🙂
Isn't the SUV debate becoming pointless as manufacturers badge everything as an SUV? Ford, the second highest selling brand in the UK last year have canned anything that resembles a 'normal' car so all you can buy are SUV type vehicles. No doubt more will follow. So they make small SUV's and huge SUV's, which give a counter argument to any question. The term SUV is now too broadly used to form the central point of a disagreement.
With my work hat on we certainly have to cut less people out of mangled wreckages these days, less gory crashes with limbs hanging off etc but we see more people dying of internal injuries at a later date. Cars are certainly far safer then they used to be but if you go from 70mph to a dead stop no amount of airbags or big bumpers are going to prevent injury.
Has anyone mentioned the correlation between SUV ownership and the complete inability to reverse park?
How quaint. I just push a button and it does it for me 😂😂
revs1972
Free Member
Has anyone mentioned the correlation between SUV ownership and the complete inability to reverse park?How quaint. I just push a button and it does it for me
name checks out
Ford, the second highest selling brand in the UK last year have canned anything that resembles a ‘normal’ car so all you can buy are SUV type vehicles.
You can still buy a new Focus or Fiesta Admittedly they're extortionately priced but they are still 'Normal car' shaped, I'm not sure I buy the argument that you r "Can't Buy" anything that's not an SUV.
Add to the data… have a guess what your average speed is (hopefully you don’t know so you can guess) and then check, ask a few mates etc. Have a guess what you think the UK average speed in a car is as well.
FWIW i can tell you exactly what my average is, 59.7 kph over the last 16 days (new car). Last car was mid 50's, due to COVID and not a lot of long journeys for the first 2 years of ownership, i picked it up the day we were all sent home for 18 months!)
I could also give you a breakdown of time at speed, size of torque requests (brake and accelerate), fuel consumption, distance travelled, use of indicators and horn, wipers and washers, cruise usage, ABS interventions and about 30 or 40 other signals.
I work for an OEM and drive a data logged mileage accumulation car.
There is also a fleet of several million cars that download a limited set of data every time they are connected to diagnostics, and some log over the cloud.
And asking a few mates is still only anecdata
Are cat regen failure figures are anecdotal… ???
A) Catalytic convertors don't do regens B)
DPF regens are just massively over reported, as everything that fails is.
But anyway.. show me the data showing some sort of speed/miles figures…
You've heard of GDPR? Once you can contact me on our internal communications, i can then point you in the direction of the owner of the data and you can find out if/what you're allowed to see.
So if we take <30mph being the mean speed, cross sectional area is really not that important… (that is not even taking into account that the people dragging that figure up are more likely to be driving more aerodynamic cars you claim is anecdotal… )
Yes, i can see that it makes no difference in the distribution of speeds travelled at whether they are driving a high car or a low car.
You can still buy a new Focus or Fiesta
Not for much longer. Late last year Ford announced the end of the Fiesta and the Focus over the next couple of years to make SUV / crossovers instead.
It'll be interesting to see what happens when we go all EV because any normal car style EVs will have better range than the SUV shapes, and everyone is wetting their pants about range for some reason in a way they didn't about fuel economy for ICEs.
It’ll be interesting to see what happens when we go all EV
I’m hoping to see far fewer caravans on the roads 😉
I’m hoping to see far fewer caravans on the roads 😉
Have you seen the torque figures for EV vehicles! Caravans will be getting bigger! 🤣
It’ll be interesting to see what happens when we go all EV because any normal car style EVs will have better range than the SUV shapes, and everyone is wetting their pants about range for some reason in a way they didn’t about fuel economy for ICEs.
Funny that, isn't it?
My only evidence, is you've got to watch small cars when cycling, these tend to be the cars that run me over !
mert
I work for an OEM and drive a data logged mileage accumulation car.
So between 31mph and 35mph ..
There is also a fleet of several million cars that download a limited set of data every time they are connected to diagnostics, and some log over the cloud.
Without giving any personal data are these fleet cars as in company and what would generally be high mileage cars?
I'm trying to rationalise the so called yummy mummy who drives 2 miles to drop the kids off in a 6L 4wd each day before dropping in at the gym and then going home with the 2019 stats from DfT
Using data from 2019, the average car journey distance in the UK is 8.4 miles. Trips where there are passengers in the car tend to be longer (9.1 miles) than trips where the driver is travelling alone (7.7 miles).
and same source
The average car journey time in the UK is 21.5 minutes.
so taking the multiple passengers 9.1 miles in 21.5 minutes I get the average speed to be 25.4 mph...
I could also give you a breakdown of time at speed, size of torque requests (brake and accelerate), fuel consumption, distance travelled, use of indicators and horn, wipers and washers, cruise usage, ABS interventions and about 30 or 40 other signals.
That's well into next level stuff... at this point I'm trying to establish if SUV owners should be punished/taxed/vilified due to the "significant" amount of extra fuel used purely down to their cross sectional area/height.
If we assume the average person is driving at 70 mph most of the time or 25 mph average makes a big difference to drag from air.
@stevextc:
This is the environmentalist that encourages everyone to invest in crypto, the SUV hater that hates eBikes etc. etc. etc.
I don't encourage anyone to invest in crypto. I can see upsides and downsides of it, but I don't encourage anyone to invest in it at all.
I don't particularly like SUVs, despite owning one for it's sporting utility as it's the best tool for the job I need. I've taken a balanced view here - they're clearly safer for the occupants - but I also stated I would support legislation to level the playing field.
I do hate ebikes though. Do I have to like them?
What I think the problem here is steve is that you struggle to comprehend actual arguments - you take a line and decide that's the totality of people's thinking, even when a simple read back up could easily dissuage you of your notions.
That’s well into next level stuff… at this point I’m trying to establish if SUV owners should be punished/taxed/vilified due to the “significant” amount of extra fuel used purely down to their cross sectional area/height.
when driven at low speeds the height is fairly meaningless, however weight becomes a real impact as most low-speed driving involves braking, and excess engine capacity also causes higher relative losses than at higher speed.
its almost as if we should devise a test that works out how un-ecological a car is at a variety of speeds that attempt to mirror typical use and tax based on that.
