That vid is pretty compelling.
weight becomes a real impact as most low-speed driving involves braking, and excess engine capacity also causes higher relative losses than at higher speed.
Someone should design some kind of Toyota Prius with regenerative braking to recover the energy lost in typical around town driving, and a smallish efficient engine that is really efficient at main road cruise speed, with some kind of seamless electric motor integration to top up the power of that ICE unit. They on top of that powertrain efficiency, they could go the whole hog and make this thing more aerodynamic to help out at any kind of speed...
What I think the problem here is steve is that you struggle to comprehend actual arguments – you take a line and decide that’s the totality of people’s thinking, even when a simple read back up could easily dissuage you of your notions.
I think you cross posted here, I wasn't the one posted that, I was replying to that post... I don't have any issue with your views on crypto or SUV's etc. or just locking yourself in a cabin and saying sod it..
couple of things from the last few pages i have to comment on.
ford in north america no longer sell “cars”, just trucks and suv/crossovers. no one buys cars.
people wet themselves about range in a way that they don’t about mpg because it is harder to find a place to refuel an electric car and the refuelling takes longer. this is changing
size of cars/vehicles doesn’t seem to be reducing with the shift to electricity, they just get more batteries. this is insane and completely misses the point electric cars are trying to address. but safety legislation does work against getting the weight of cars down. i saw a chevy suv the other day that would make a range rover look small.
i’ll admit that the stupidity actually made me a little angry. that said most families are bigger and larger in north america than in the uk and while cars are getting bigger on the outside, they aren’t getting as big on the inside. the extra size is between the body and the hard bits.
in all though, the world is doomed.
What’s the criteria for those who will be killed / sacrificed / allowed to wither away?
begin with the rich and the stupid and the long-term ill. or something
Sorry @stevextc:
I think you cross posted here
100%. Apologies!
@squirrelking can bugger off instead 😉
that said most families are bigger and larger in north america than in the uk
That's not a major factor, I don't think - that bestselling vehicle, the F150, only has 5 seats.
size of cars/vehicles doesn’t seem to be reducing with the shift to electricity, they just get more batteries.
The US vehicle testing organisation recently released a video of them testing their crash gear against a pretty big pickup with a load of additional ballast.
They had been watching the increase in weight both due to increasing general size of vehicles and adding batteries and werent sure how the cable system used to crash test them would cope if the trend continued.
Pickups sell like crazy in the US because they're not taxed as cars and thus are comparatively cheap in most states. The price outweighed the hick factor to begin with, and now they just are.
But I don't care about these things that are edge cases on European roads... is my electric Hyundai, Kia crossover equally evil?
Depends. Did you have a choice between equivalent car and SUV shapes?
If it was a Kona shorter range model then you did 🙂
the point electric cars are trying to address
The point that electric cars are trying to address is "car companies want to make money".
It would have a lower drag coefficient than your Merc, and a better driving position.
And warranty...
It would have a lower drag coefficient than your Merc
But not as low as my Hyundai.
I could have got a Kona or an Ioniq. I test drove the Kona and liked it, but I got the Ioniq because it was bound to be more aerodynamic.
Very weird statement coming from someone pretending to care about climate change and against nuclear power???
Shhh don't tell my employer!
I'm not against nuclear power, I was against your crazy idea of unregulated/unsafe generation. I was that aghast precisely because I work in the industry.
I did level 2 and 3 modules on renewables and sustainability as part of my degree a couple of years ago, what qualifications do you have in that area?
@chevychase once again you don't know what you're talking about. Ford haven't made it a secret that the "Ecosport" is replacing the Fiesta and the Kuga is replacing the Focus meaning no small cars left in their range. Presumably (and I'm guessing based on your comment about cutting folk out, feel free to correct me) that you're fire service? How do you correlate safety with increased mass and higher centre of gravity? What do you think the outcome is going to be for the safety of everyone outside these higher and heavier cars?
As an aside, that nobody else seems to have picked up on, how much extra VED, fuel duty or VAT are you prepared to pay for the extra road upkeep?
I missed that but I didn't miss this 'I test drove the Kona and liked it'. Dirty man 😉
The new Kona (SUV crossover) has a lower drag coefficient, using Hyundai's numbers, than the Ioniq5. The 6 is very slippery
* Not an SUV (according to Ferrari):
It's so far removed from what cars should be if we desired the most sustainable type of private motor vehicle. Even Lotus is working on a SUV (the Eletra) - the 'added lightness' approach of Chapman thrown in the bin.
Not for much longer. Late last year Ford announced the end of the Fiesta and the Focus over the next couple of years to make SUV / crossovers instead.
Pretty sure they both go this year, any time now for the Fiesta and looking at my work lease scheme yesterday you can not order a Focus. There'll be some stock to sell so you can buy a new one but I don't think ford will take orders for new builds on either.
Anyway, this thread has long since ceased to be a place for debate so I'll leave those left to shout at each other.
The 6 is very slippery
But so fugly from the rear. Looks like its just collapsed
The new Kona (SUV crossover) has a lower drag coefficient, using Hyundai’s numbers, than the Ioniq5.
I have an Ioniq EV, not an Ioniq 5. It's pretty aero, one of the most efficient on the road from what I can tell.
I do really like the Ioniq 6, but I worry that it would be full of bongs and beeps and shit UX like mine is.
@chevychase once again you don’t know what you’re talking about. Ford haven’t made it a secret that the “Ecosport” is replacing the Fiesta and the Kuga is replacing the Focus meaning no small cars left in their range. Presumably (and I’m guessing based on your comment about cutting folk out, feel free to correct me) that you’re fire service? How do you correlate safety with increased mass and higher centre of gravity? What do you think the outcome is going to be for the safety of everyone outside these higher and heavier cars?
I was me that mentioned cutting people out mate but I didn't say SUV's were safer, just cars in general are but there are still huge problems with internal injuries due to impact forces. I also made the point that Ford are dropping 'cars' so you're crossing streams.
Anyway, what am I doing back here?
@chevychase once again you don’t know what you’re talking about. Ford haven’t made it a secret that the “Ecosport” is replacing the Fiesta and the Kuga is replacing the Focus meaning no small cars left in their range. Presumably (and I’m guessing based on your comment about cutting folk out, feel free to correct me) that you’re fire service? How do you correlate safety with increased mass and higher centre of gravity? What do you think the outcome is going to be for the safety of everyone outside these higher and heavier cars?
Nope. Not me. Didn't say any of that. It's a double cross-post.
But a few points:
1) 3% of cars roll over in a crash. Might be higher for SUVs, but it's still not the biggest risk factor - and the stats show, once again, that you're 50% more likely to walk away from a collision in an SUV without serious injury. So they're safer.
2) On pedestrians being killed by SUV's - someone posted about SUV's mounting pavements easier. We lose about 40 people a year (of the nearly 2000) to cars mounting pavements. This is not going to substantially change because: SUV.
3) On the rest - everyone else's safety - I've said before and I've said again, unless you get government to legislate minimum safety standards across the board - i.e. for all vehicles - then it's a waste of time. SUV's are an easy target because of the middle class slightly-wealthier-than-you connotations - but it won't move the dial.
Environmentally? Yep, they're worse than cars. But is any government doing much about that? No. No they're not. Or they'd have to put Bugattis in the firing line too and they won't legislate against the rich.
So, if you can afford to buy an SUV and you know it's safer then you might as well if that's important to you. We don't track the data on deaths from SUVs and I bet it doesn't move the dial much either way. If they're inherently dangerous then the government needs to legislate. But considering smoking is the direct cause of death in 50% of people who partake and the government hasn't banned fags, then I can't envisage them doing anything other than mince around the edges and put out weak platitudes to an issue that might kill a handful of people each year.
the stats show, once again, that you’re 50% more likely to walk away from a collision in an SUV without serious injury. So they’re safer.
once again, no they don't.
Our country is criss crossed with tiny lanes and windy roads that aren't suitable for these suv vehicles in many cases.
Laughingly a lot of townies moved into 'the countryside' during the covid years. Not all, but many have bought ridiculously big, heavy vehicles to get them up the 'farm track, the once a year snowy road, or grassy lane. These drivers are mistaken. I personally don't like them parking in farmers gateways because they won't fit in a National trust parking spot, blocking tiny lanes or just generally polluting the countryside.
Rant over.
My aerodynamically superior estate car is as wide as a suv - and longer.
Are the winding country lanes not suitable for my car either?
What about delivery vans? Should they stick to the towns?
If I'm honest, I think the topic of SUV vs 'slightly lower car' is fiddling around the very far edges of societies issues.
I was me that mentioned cutting people out mate
Ah bugger, my mistake.
the stats show, once again, that you’re 50% more likely to walk away from a collision in an SUV without serious injury. So they’re safer.
1) You're literally arguing with physics at this point.
2) That's a rather sociopathic stand to take. Presumably you don't care about anyone else's safety outside of your metal box.
3) Your stats may well be wrong if 5lab is correct.
Have we got onto those absolutely ridiculous HUGE pickups yet? Dodge Ram and Ford Rangers, stupidly big things!!
roads are optional, as is parallel parking
I like them. 4wd helps me. Better height is nicer. They tend not to have moronic thin tyres on whopping rims. So ride is better. Only a cretin exceeds the speed limit so that isn't an issue.
Fuel consumption is my business.
If only I could find the info that may years ago informed that well over 90% of car/pedestrain collisions were pedestrians fault> As opposed to cycles wheere it was nearly toehr way around!
You really think a Sportage or a Kuga is a status symbol to people ? I’m not convinced…
Yep. My OH says that she loves everything about her car except the badge.
She's got a top spec 2.0d AWD Sportage.
If I’m honest, I think the topic of SUV vs ‘slightly lower car’ is fiddling around the very far edges of societies issues.
Yes, but its an easy choice to make for most people, really.
Fuel consumption is my business.
No, it definitely isn't, and this attitude is a huge problem.
Yes, but its an easy accusation to make for most people, really.
FTFY
@molgrips, on fuel:
No, it definitely isn’t, and this attitude is a huge problem.
Y'see, I used to live in your utopian space where I thought people were going to make the right decisions out of sheer sensible good-natured-ness. I even have a degree in Environmental Management to show for it.
Over the years I've hugely reluctantly come to the horrible realisation that it's 100% up to Governments to legislate if anything meaningful is going to happen. For the few people who bother to do the right thing, there's a raft of people waving their excess (and seemingly excess happiness) in their faces.
Wishful thinking is just that. Legislation is the only recourse.
On @mrmonkfinger's point about his car being bigger than most SUVs - absolutely. My Volvo V60 is wider than my Honda CRV too.
This is not about car size. It's about height and visibility - it's about jealousy of people perceived to have more money (because they do indeed come at a premium).
@bunnyhop - on your points - I live at the very end of one of those windy country lanes. It's absolutely suitable for SUVs - only one car can travel along it at a time anyway - so if you're in a 2CV, a Humvee or a Luton Van then that's the job. I'm also very happy with my SUV today because my car wasn't capable of getting me out of here to go to the shops because of the snow, but the SUV was - and safely. (And last time it snowed, it was on the ground at this altitude for a week).
The height of my SUV is extra useful from a safety point of view because I can see over the dry stone walls and the high hedges that I can't see over in cars - so I've a much much better view of other cars, pedestrians (it's a walker's paradise) and cyclists - all of which I come round a corner and either surprise, or am surprised by in the car.
The farmers tool around in their mahoosive tractors pulling trailers jammed full of sheep and cows, or with flatbeds and 20ft high stacks of hay bails in the summer - these heavy vehicles are clearly much bigger than SUVs and they seem to manage on single track lanes just fine.
It's the cows, man. Blocking the road back from the shops, shitting everywhere. The cows!!
Nope. This anti-SUV thing is really about one thing: Jealousy.
I've sympathy for the environmental points - I really really am. But respectfully, you can all jog on. 🙂 You hate them because it's popular to hate them and a bandwagon has very firmly been jumped on. It's just like reading a Daily Fail article about how cyclists are a "menace" ...
🙂
I’m also very happy with my SUV today because my car wasn’t capable of getting me out of here to go to the shops because of the snow, but the SUV was – and safely. (And last time it snowed, it was on the ground at this altitude for a week).
Sounds like a really terrible car.
The suv doing pirouettes in the snow under braking Infront of me yesterday appeared to be capable of not alot let alone going to the shops.
Tires make the car move and stop not putting it on stilts not making it fauxbyfaux.
Nope. This anti-SUV thing is really about one thing: Jealousy
Genuine question.. Jealousy of what exactly?
People with/affording SUVs?
I personally think they are daft for,ooh, 90% of cases. A stupid status symbol.
Could I afford one? Absolutely.
Do I want one? Absolutely not
DrP
I’m also very happy with my SUV today because my car wasn’t capable of getting me out of here to go to the shops because of the snow
Wait until you find out about winter tyres or even all season ones. It will be a revelation.
these heavy vehicles are clearly much bigger than SUVs and they seem to manage on single track lanes just fine.
And those which arent quite single track? Although I have seen several cases where they have had difficulty even with a passing spot getting past some suv whereas a normal car it would have been easy enough.
Nope. This anti-SUV thing is really about one thing: Jealousy.
Ah yes of course. Keep telling yourself everyone looks at you in awe and envy. I went for a walk at lunch past showrooms for ferraris, astons and mcclarens but I just laughed and thought where are the crvs. Since thats what I truly aspire to.
I do wonder if you are failing poes law but I suspect you are just the classic suv driver who is actually deluded enough to think everyone is jealous and sits there patting themselves on the back about how safe they feel whilst in reality the actual safety gains for them is minimal whereas the increased risk to others is far greater.
My 15 year old LOWERED Skoda Octavia has crossclimates on all 4 corners....
Can traverse snowy Brighton streets, or muddy enduro race fields with ease!
DrP
Sounds like a really terrible car.
Not at all - just one that's not particularly suited to the ground clearance needed around here. It's suited to long motorway miles. It's low-profile tyres don't deform like the tyres on the SUV. I *could* have got it up the lane, but why bother when I've got a better tool for the job?
The suv doing pirouettes in the snow under braking Infront of me yesterday...
...was being driven by someone who doesn't know how to drive in snow?
Genuine question.. Jealousy of what exactly?
Of people with "more money than they need". SUVs have an image of being owned by Chelsea mums, the Cheshire Set, the middle-class who "don't bloody need that sort of car".
Like most of these things - it's not rational. It's just a load of jealous **** about an imagined type of person who's "better off" and who swan around having a nicer life without having to work at the millstone like everyone else.
You yourself acknowledge this - a "stupid status symbol". I have one for it's sporting utility. My sister, who definitely doesn't need one and would definitely fall into other people's perception of "status symbol" wants to feel safe and being higher up makes her feel safe (regardless of whether it is or not - does that matter if it makes you feel safe?). My brother in law? He doesn't need one. He wants the status symbol - and he can afford to spunk £100k on a range rover - when I'd take that money and invest it. But each to their own.
Jealousy is the prime problem. I'll stand by it until someone can give me a very good reason otherwise.
Nope. This anti-SUV thing is really about one thing: Jealousy.
As arguments go that's pretty crass. You really think I want one? I could buy the biggest fattest **** off SUV on STW but a Zoé fit my needs better. People like to think other people are jealous because it makes them feel better about themselves - check out the psychology of it. So rather pouring scorn on people rationally objecting to SUVs in urban environments think about your own complexes and how you might free yourself of them.
@dissonance - you appear to be suffering the cognitive failure associated with your name:
And those which arent quite single track? Although I have seen several cases where they have had difficulty even with a passing spot getting past some suv whereas a normal car it would have been easy enough.
So, the tractors I spoke about would still have the same issue? And many SUVs are smaller than many cars. They just look bigger - as attested multiple times on this page by differrent people.
So what's the beef about size again? You live in the country and they're really annoying you are they? Nobody round here seems to care. Like I said - it's the cows that hold me up, not the holidaymakers.
Ah yes of course. Keep telling yourself everyone looks at you in awe and envy
I don't really care how people see me personally. I never saw cars as status symbols, or as a reflection of someone's wealth - because I know chavs get themselves into hock to get "nice" cars, and I know plenty of rich people who knock about in old bangers. But there's undoubtedly an image issue with SUVs and an income-lifestyle paradigm that people take a bit of chagrin at.
As arguments go that’s pretty crass. You really think I want one?
No. You don't have to be jealous of the car to make an imaginary determination about the type of person who drives those cars.
And we all hate SUV drivers and owners around here it seems. And we all seem to know why they've got SUVs, that they don't really need them, do they? And they're much bigger than cars (despite many cars being bigger).
It's all just childish tribal rubbish, like the Daily Fail and cyclist hate. When you look closely, it's just another form of that.
rather pouring scorn on people rationally objecting to SUVs in urban environments
I don't think it's a rational objection because it doesn't stand up to basic sensible thought.
I've lived 45 of my 49 years in urban environments and cities. They were never a problem when I lived there. It's perception, nothing else.
IF you're rationally objecting to SUVs in urban environments - what are these people supposed to do when they leave the urban environment, pack their kids and (maybe!) bikes/kayaks/sporting equipment - and leave the "urban" environment.
Are they supposed to run two cars - one for towns, one they're only allowed to use if they leave towns?
Should my sister not be allowed to feel the safety of being high up and being able to see?
just one that’s not particularly suited to the ground clearance needed around here</blockquote
The funny thing is - I'm not even sure your trolling any more I think you actually believe that.
I don’t really care how people see me personally. I never saw cars as status symbols, or as a reflection of someone’s wealth
But you do, you accuse them of being jealous when that's the last thing they feel and make these feelings public on a bicycle forum where SUVs will objectively be seen as more life threatening than regular vehicles because they are, the insurance premiums and accident stats tell you that..
SUVs have their place, there are loads of 4x4 pickups in the local ski resort because the gravel tracks around the place have been built to suit them. The gradients are what a 4x4 will climb, the surfaces are gravel and ruts are only filled in when the 4x4s have trouble in them. I've never seen one of those 4x4s in town, they get parked up and the workers drive home in cars more suited to use on tarmac. Same with the Pisten Bullies, they get used on the pistes then parked up at the end of the shift and the drivers get in their 205/Clio/Scenic on Winters to poddle home.
I don’t really care how people see me personally.
And yet you felt the need to repeatedly spew out the rubbish that everyone is jealous of someone who has a suv because it is allegedly a premium vehicle.
The rest of your "arguments" are equally incoherent and it seems like there is some serious projecting going on.
IF you’re rationally objecting to SUVs in urban environments – what are these people supposed to do when they leave the urban environment, pack their kids and (maybe!) bikes/kayaks/sporting equipment
The tool of choice amongst the paddlers I know is an estate (if they have a family and lots to carry or go seakayaking. otherwise its whatever so long as it has a securely fitting roofrack). Its an arse lobbing a boat on anything taller even if you have some of those cool thule lift assists.
Bikes you have a bit more flexibility with a rear mount but even so an estate would generally win.
Y’see, I used to live in your utopian space
I don't even know what this means. I don't live in Utopia, if I did I wouldn't have to keep reminding people (or
myself) to make better choices.
Over the years I’ve hugely reluctantly come to the horrible realisation that it’s 100% up to Governments to legislate if anything meaningful is going to happen.
I agree. That doesn't remove the moral obligation that we all have though.
Nope. This anti-SUV thing is really about one thing: Jealousy.
How can it be jealousy when most of us on here could easily afford an SUV?
Chevychase you are talking bobbins and trying to justify your choice. Admit it - you like SUVs and don't give a crap. If that makes you feel bad, then you either make a better choice next time or just stop caring. And you clearly care now, because if you didn't you wouldn't be trying to defend yourself.
what are these people supposed to do when they leave the urban environment, pack their kids and (maybe!) bikes/kayaks/sporting equipment
All my holidays are like this, I don't get stuck. Contrary to what advertising material would have you believe, you don't need high ground clearance and 4WD to engage in outdoor pursuits. In fact, leaving the car behind is largely the point in most cases.
