[Closed] Can Someone explain link between GE result and Brexit

[quote=kelvin ]Do you think David Davies will be on the board of Tate&Lyle when he steps down?
One of the few companies guaranteed to benefit hugely from a Hard Brexit (and his old employer).

They're a truly multi-national company that will definitely be impacted by a hard brexit

Impacted - in a good way. For obvious reasons. One of the few clear cut cases.

They're a truly multi-national company that will definitely be impacted by a hard brexit

[url= http://www.brexitgoldenopportunity.com/ ]"Golden Oppurtunity", says Tate & Lyle [/url]

1) Cameron signed Article 50 within days of the result
2) Move straight to WTO rules
3) Emergency budget to stimulate the economy.

You can't play chess with a pigeon.

"a much-loved British brand"

Anyway, some cushy money heading DD's way when he leaves office, if everything goes their way, I suspect.

[Except it doesn't - it has it as a statement of fact of what will happen when we leave the EU.]

Which is probably a compromise with the NEC which is overwhelmingly centrist. I can't envision Corbyn and McDonnell trying too hard to ensure freedom of movement in any negotiations, for ideological reasons and because they know that is what the majority of Brexiteers wanted, and would be a vote loser.

they know that is what the majority of Brexiteers wanted, and would be a vote loser.

I don't know if it's worth a go. Corbyn and McDonell seem to me to be prinicpled politicians, let's see if they stick to them. Principles only mean something if you stick to them when it's inconvenient. Young voters did overwhelmingly vote remain, they also overwhelmingly voted for a party lead by two of the most eurosceptic Labour MPs.

they also overwhelmingly voted for a party lead by two of the most eurosceptic Labour MPs.

Really.

most eurosceptic Labour MPs does not equal most eurosceptic MPs.

Not even close

That's a straw man. I never implied that because they were two of the most eurosceptic Labour MPs they were more eurosceptic than the Tories.

Look at Corbyn's voting records on Europe, voted against Maastricht and Lisbon and voted to come out of the EEC in 75. I'm sure there will be some interesting debates between Corbyn/McDonnell and the moderates in the party in the coming weeks.

Anyway I didn't want to get in to a debate on here, I just wanted to point out the massive elephant in the room that the Labour voting remainers are ignoring. Corbyn and McDonnell are no fans of the EU, I think that's on record enough. I'm happy with how I voted, both in the referendum. I voted leave based on my socialist principles, and I'm happy with how I voted in GE2017, Labour based on my socialist principles. I'm more at ease than I have been voting Labour for the last 20 odd years.

wanted to point out the massive elephant in the room that the Labour voting remainers are ignoring. Corbyn and McDonnell are no fans of the EU, I think that's on record enough.

yet 2 of the most rebellious MPs in the party, were remainers, I have no doubt that if they wanted to Leave theyd have said so during the referendum campaign

I just wanted to point out the massive elephant in the room that the Labour voting remainers are ignoring. Corbyn and McDonnell are no fans of the EU

I voted Labour and I voted Remain. I put having a Corbyn led Labour government ahead of being in the EU. Tell me what I was supposedly ignoring please?

Ignoring, in the fact it hasn't been mentioned in any of the posts on this thread. That's all. Good for you by the way, sticking by your principles even when it's inconvenient.

Do you really believe that hand on heart Corbyn and McDonnell have had a sudden change of belief and are ardent remainers? Really. I do hope not as it would prove that all politicians would say or do anything to get elected and I'd probably never vote again.Besides it was the Labour Party's NEC's decision to back remain, not Corbyn and McDonnell's alone.

they also overwhelmingly voted for a party lead by two of the most eurosceptic Labour MPs.

Corbyn has already shown he is prepared to put the party's principles before his own if necessary. I think it's called being democratic or something.

As I said above there will be some interesting debate between the socialists and the centrists in the Labour party on which way the party is taken regarding the EU. Totally democratic I'm sure and if I don't agree with it then I'll totally democratically decide whether I want to continue supporting the Labour party.

Do you really believe that hand on heart Corbyn and McDonnell have had a sudden change of belief and are ardent remainers?

so why did they vote remain if they are so staunchly true to their principles?

Because he's not a dictator. It was a choice of the Labour Party as a whole as will the direction of the Labour Party post election. I can't believe I'm saying this for the 3rd time in half an hour, there will be debates amongst the cabinet and the NEC and a decision will be made. This doesn't alter the fact that they are both eurosceptic, their voting record and various writings and speeches, over 40 years shows this.

Do you really believe that hand on heart Corbyn and McDonnell have had a sudden change of belief and are ardent remainers?

Ardent remainers, no. In same way as I am not an ardent remainer.

To me it makes a lot more sense to remain than leave but if we were not already in the EU I am not sure I would be rushing to join

You make a good point. I can't say I'm an ardent leaver either, I based my decision on socialist principles and if there was a second referendum I would vote the same way as nothing so far has convinced me that it's worth foregoing those principles.

[quote=whattiler ]I can't envision Corbyn and McDonnell trying too hard to ensure freedom of movement in any negotiations, for ideological reasons and because they know that is what the majority of Brexiteers wanted, and would be a vote loser.

Probably not - but I'm hoping they might work quite hard to maintain access to the single market in negotiations, and take whatever is required to ensure that...

I can also appreciate how hardcore socialists reject most of the arguments against leaving the EU, because they're economic arguments, the conclusion of which is that it's bad for everybody if the economy does worse - I imagine such arguments look remarkably similar to those made for trickle down economics if you're inclined that way. However do you really still think it's a good idea to leave under the Tories? Are you ignoring their plans for workers rights?

There is an easy solution to the EU dilemma for labour - a second referendum

Normally, I can't help but feel a huge amount of irritation at Leave voters per se, however the opinions expressed in this thread seem to be have been reached after deliberation and no-one has mentioned immigration or "EU bureaucratic system" as a justification. It's good to debate with people whom you disagree with.

I couldn't have summed up my view any better than aracer already has.

To rewind a little, one the final picture becomes clear, I think that the public must be consulted. However, we need to keep Big Data and the tabloid press muzzled other than to report on actual fact as we know it.

There must also be a commitment to punitive action against Leave supporting politicians if we do indeed decide to continue with Brexit and it transpires that we were misled in any way - i.e. worker rights eroded, tariffs passed on to consumers, lack of staff in the NHS and economic damage. The only way to do this properly is to compel our politicians to tell the truth, with the penalty of lengthy imprisonment as a deterrent.

I based my decision on socialist principles

Lexit doesn't exist, Leaving will screw over workers in many painful ways, whoever is the government.

I liked a lot of the Labour mainfesto, and at least they made a good effort at costing it, but it ignored the costs of Brexit, and the help business and workers will need just to keep employment and real wages from falling.

I can't say I'm an ardent leaver either, I based my decision on socialist principles

And yet the EU is in many respects socialist, and certainly more socialist as a whole than the UK.

I don't think anything is a good idea under the Tories. We were given the vote when we were and had to vote on it when given the chance. Look how much has changed since the referendum. We had a Tory majority with plans for ever deepening austerity and a deeply divided and weak Labour Party. Where are we now, and I'm not saying it's because of the referendum or that I or anybody predicted it would be the outcome. We have a Tory in minority government, a strong and hopefully united socialist Labour party with a mandate to oppose austerity. Sometimes you have to act on principle and hope that you can affect change in the way that you want to.

Workers rights have been eroded for nearly 40 years, even under Blair things didn't improve. The social charter was a bone that the the EU threw at us in the 80s and was grasped with both hands by Kinnock in the face of ever increasing Thatcherism. The centrist left have clung on to it ever since. The EU never has been a social organisation, it's an unfettered free market capitalist organisation that cares not for workers rights.

You're right in that I am inclined no to agree with trickle down economics, and yes, this does form my main argument against the EU. It's a race to the bottom for workers whilst the profits are supposed to trickle down, it hasn't worked.

I can also appreciate how hardcore socialists reject most of the arguments against leaving the EU, because they're economic arguments, the conclusion of which is that it's bad for everybody if the economy does worse - I imagine such arguments look remarkably similar to those made for trickle down economics if you're inclined that way. However do you really still think it's a good idea to leave under the Tories? Are you ignoring their plans for workers rights?

I agree. There's a principled left-wing argument for leaving the EU: it's not a socialist body, as its treatment of Greece demonstrated. But as you say, what matters is what happens, and I don't see any tory-negotiated exit being good for the ordinary man or woman.

[quote=whattiler ]

The EU never has been a social organisation, it's an unfettered free market capitalist organisation that cares not for workers rights.

Limits on working hours
A minimum of 48 hours off work per fortnight and a rest time of at least 11 consecutive hours (12 hours for young people) every day.
Workers must be given at least four weeks (20 days) of paid leave per year. (less than the UK's 28 though)
Equal pay between men and women
Maternity rights
Parental leave
Anti-discrimination laws
Compensation for discrimination victims
Agency worker protections
Health and Safety Framework Directive

Yip, zero workers' rights thanks to the EU. 🙄

Nearly all won by the struggles of the British Labour and trades union movements.

Nah, Le front Populaire.

BB, You forgot the short contract directive, which affected me and many like me directly.

Anyway my work here is done, I've reached one person with reasoned principled debate.

I only wanted to add a different point of view to the thread which after all was originally about the connection between Brexit and general election result. I'm certain that my point of view does have a connection. I knew it was never going to be popular, despised by the Tories, remainers and centrist left alike. Nevermind water off a ducks back to me. I got much more abuse on other forms of social media last June.

[quote=whattiler ]Anyway my work here is done, I've reached one person with reasoned principled debate.
I only wanted to add a different point of view to the thread which after all was originally about the connection between Brexit and general election result. I'm certain that my point of view does have a connection. I knew it was never going to be popular, despised by the Tories, remainers and centrist left alike. Nevermind water off a ducks back to me. I got much more abuse on other forms of social media last June.

And you registered on this forum just to make these posts?

Anyway my work here is done...

[quote=whattiler ]Anyway my work here is done, I've reached one person with reasoned principled debate.

Don't go - I suspect I'm not the only one appreciating having an intelligent debate on this for a change (apologies if any of my replies haven't come across that way).

[quote=whattiler ]I don't think anything is a good idea under the Tories.

The trouble is that whilst I can understand the point that this was your chance - it was actually your chance to be screwed. My politics are very much pragmatic, I'm not terribly impressed with theories of what could happen in an ideal world when the reality is different, and the reality is still Brexit under a Tory government. Which in the context of workers' rights is still pretty hard to spin as preferable to staying in the EU. I suppose the argument may be that we can fix things under a different government, but that requires a huge dollop of wishful thinking. Just not a big fan of unrealistic idealism which the hardcore left seems fond of.

You're right in that I am inclined no to agree with trickle down economics, and yes, this does form my main argument against the EU. It's a race to the bottom for workers whilst the profits are supposed to trickle down, it hasn't worked.

I wasn't expecting you to - you don't particularly have to be a lefty to realise it's a load of bollocks - it was an example of something similar to how the economic advantages of the EU might be perceived, and interesting to see you agree with the link. Ultimately though if the economy does badly, then it's hard to get the tax receipts to pay for things to benefit people. The economy will do badly after Brexit in comparison to how it would if we were still in the EU - the plan to maintain our economic performance also quite clearly doesn't involve improving the lot of the workers.

As has been pointed out, the EU may not care much for workers rights, but the governments we get in the UK care far less. This is the control we're actually taking back.

Nearly all won by the struggles of the British Labour and trades union movements.

I've seen this silly argument before. You have to defend your victory, and since Thatcher British Labour and trade unions have been losing those rights big time.

Its the EU that have done a better job defending our rights against predominantly Tory Governments than Labour and the Unions have in the last 40 years.

With this in mind I do find it disconcerting that some people who believe in these rights leap into bed with the very people trying to take them away over the belief that the EU is only an free market capitalist organisation, when it is so much more.

Not the kind of principles I would be proud of.

Anyway my work here is done...

...having made one inaccurate post about the EU and workers' rights.

I want your job!

..having made one inaccurate post about the EU and workers' rights

Or getting out while they can before getting drawn in so far you can never get out...

Corbyn (like Tony Benn before him) has been a lifelong hater of Europe. It stops you nationalising things and its anti-democratic. Corbyn wanted A50 triggered on 24 June 2016. Labour stood on a firm platform of ending freedom of movement, had to otherwise they would have lost many votes / seats.

<sigh> cite

Oh aracer,"cite" is is an expression of hope,experience tells us we will be disappointed,yet again.

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wheres-teamhurtmore/page/4#post-8432695

EDIT: specifically which thing do you not believe / need a citation for ? Everything I posted is basic "been in the news tons" sort of stuff.

@aracer really I do wonder sometimes if you follow the news at all. Corbyn deleted all his anti-EU blog posts shortly after becoming leader (you can google that) . Decades worth. As Kaye Hoey said at every EU Westminster vote Corbyn went through the same lobby as she did, ie the anti. His half (or less) hearted campaign for Remain said it all, the best he could manage was giving the EU 6 (or 7?) out of 10 🙂 He also said a number of times during the election campaign that he / Labour supported the end of freedom of movement, that automatically means no Single Market. He had to do that to shore up the Labour vote in the North

In which case a cite will be dead easy for you...

"Labour stood on a firm platform of ending freedom of movement"

Yes,cite please jamba.

Page 28 of the [b]Manifesto[/b]

Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union (its a PDF so cut/paste a bit of a hassle, I can mark up the page with iAnnotate)

EDIT screen print

[img] [/img]

LABOUR.ORG.UK "http://www.labour.org.uk/page/-/Images/manifesto-2017/Labour+Manifesto+2017.pdf"

To be honest its just a massive facepalm you guys don't know this. Nothing agressive you understand I simply cannot believe it.

EU has been ultra firm that the 4 pillars of the EU are inseperable so no freedom of movement means no Single Market membership,

I don't think that counts jamba,stating that free movement will end as a result of leaving the EU,is not a firm platform,it is simply a description of the outcome of leaving. Do you have any other evidence for your statement ?

F me. Its a manifesto commitment and Corbyn confirmed it during speeches / Q&A during the election, his spokeman confirmed a few days ago that no freedom of movement means no Single Market Membership.

Really I am just flabbergasted you do not believe this. It is fundamental to the platform Labour stood on.

[quote=jambalaya ]Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union

To be honest its just a massive facepalm you guys don't know this. Nothing agressive you understand I simply cannot believe it.

I know exactly what it says in the manifesto - I was just curious whether you did, and that's what you were basing your assertion on. It's a statement of fact, as you might notice I already pointed out on pages 5 & 7 of this thread. If you have additional references which make it more than that you'll presumably be able to cite them.

Because it also says in the manifesto:

strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. Labour will always put jobs and the economy first.

Given the obvious contradiction we're both aware of, it's kind of tricky to rely on a statement of fact in one part of the manifesto as a statement of the aims, when another part of the manifesto explicitly suggests an aim which is impossible to achieve in conjunction with that. I certainly can't find anything saying that Labour will put ending FoM or controlling immigration first...

I'm still curious about Thornberry's statement that there are many ways to leave the EU and we must find one acceptable to the 48. - woman's hour

I think you need to read that in too Jamba.

I suspect freedom of movement may live on if Labour get their way. When Brexit causes our economy to crash we'll need FoM to be able to get jobs other places.

Jamba has a point though (hi Jambs) in that the Labour position on EU membership is [i]nuanced[/i].

Which tbh for most of us it is. Pros and cons are apparent to [i]most[/i] of us when we think about it. Obviously! Its the sanest view of the whole thing. Its no bed of roses, but on the whole, the benefits outweigh the negatives.

But I think though that for me....and many others....its fundamentally about trust. There are those I would trust to negotiate something thats in-line with my slightly left-leaning interests and inclinations...and those I certainly wouldn't.

And thats where Corbyn comes in for me.

I just trust him more.

I don't trust the ConKips as they'll try and f*ck me over.

I have said for a long time that they actively [i]want[/i] a bad deal/no deal as it will further their cause and give them a plausible excuse for further demolition of the welfare state and other institutions that I'm kinda fond of.

And the ECJ for good measure as it interferes with their authoritarian tendencies.

[quote=codybrennan ]Jamba has a point though (hi Jambs) in that the Labour position on EU membership is nuanced.

I agree its position is nuanced (I used the word "contradictory" earlier 😉 ), and if that was the point jamba was making then I'd agree with him...

jamba's assertion about people voting for hard Brexit is a load of bolleaux though - I happened to vote Lib Dem anyway, but if I lived half a mile down the road I'd have voted Labour in the hope of getting a government made up of Labour, SNP and Lib Dems which sure as heck wouldn't be doing hard Brexit.

jambalaya - Member

F me. Its a manifesto commitment and Corbyn confirmed it during speeches / Q&A during the election, his spokeman confirmed a few days ago that no freedom of movement means no Single Market Membership.

Really I am just flabbergasted you do not believe this. It is fundamental to the platform Labour stood on.

Could be right.

It'll be interesting to see what happens. Lots of people seem to want to have their cake and eat it. I wonder if we'll all get fudge instead, served with a generous helping of jam, but not until tomorrow.

Will there be clotted cream with the jam?

Or its just setting up the real point that the UK must accept some stuff to get something. Freedom of movement is in the negotiations especially if it means we can keep the single market. It could be seen as a stalling point or a way to lie to the brexiters to get their vote. I approve.

[quote=mikewsmith ]It could be seen as a stalling point or a way to lie to the brexiters to get their vote. I approve.

Well they all voted on the basis of a lie last year, so I can't see why they should get upset if they've done it again.

I don't trust Corbyn as far as I could throw him as regards negotiating exit and trade deals.
But, the alternative is May… who has never shown any understanding about the needs of business or people.
Easy, but awful, choice.

Both parties had "cake and eat it" platitudes in their manifestos as regards Brexit.
No vote for either party gave any direction as regards what people want out of the upcoming negotiations.

mostly the delightful lot that voted UKIP have toddled off back to their respective natural habitats and voted however they would have done normally, UKIP collapse as a result, and the 48 have voted tactically. the only option to bring brexit to a crash stop was lib dem, but they don't hold sufficient sway to prevent a division of the vote most places, and clearly the main objective was to prevent the tories getting that landslide they expected, so the alternative was labour.
mission accomplished.
labour may not be offering much succor to the remain camp, but one thing at least is true, they don't have a party half full of swivel-eyed nut-job millionaires looking to bring the economy to it's knees just so they and their mates can get richer at the expense of the rest of us.

Del - Member

labour may not be offering much succor to the remain camp...

here's the succor:

i'd rather labour were doing the negotiating, than the likes of Davis, Gove, Johnsson, Fallon, etc. etc. The very idea that ****s like Rees-Mogg are even in the same room while EU-exit brainstorming sessions are being held brings me out in a cold sweat.

I don't trust Corbyn as far as I could throw him as regards negotiating exit and trade deals.

Why?

What about Starmer?

Basic politics what labour have done with the manifesto. They've focussed on what they believe in (free market and customs union) and left a caveat on FoM by stating that will end with Brexit [b]because that's the current uk/eu position[/b]. Allows them to reposition accordingly after negotiations.

Labour stood on a firm platform of ending freedom of movement, had to otherwise they would have lost many votes / seats.

So on that statement are the Labour party saying they will withdraw completely from the EU. Of course they are not. They are basically hoodwinking the masses into believing that they 'will' obtain that if they get into power. The realists amongst us know that they don't have a chance of negotiating such a deal. No UK political party can achieve such a deal.

Agreed flanagaj. But Brexit showed us that lying is an acceptable electoral practice - it may even have been you or Jamba that said that.
And on any basis the Tories look worse.

The Labour manifesto actually allows quite a lot of wriggle room, including some options that the Brexit fanatics miss because the refuse to see them.

flanagaj
The realists amongst us know that they don't have a chance of negotiating such a deal. No UK political party can achieve such a deal.

Serious question for you. Not trolling, so please don't think I am. Looking for a glimpse of what makes you tick.

Would you [i]like[/i] to see a deal? Genuine question. Not looking for a fatalistic, we-can't-get-a-deal-so-lets-leave answer.

Would you like to see some kind of deal?

Asking lefties to negotiate with EU bureaucratic system? 😯

Aren't they the same group of people ... 😆