[Closed] Cameron and the Pig

Apart from the pig thing, there's nothing in any of this which either directly involves him or we didn't pretty much know anyhow.

It's amazing what a trustworthy, reliable witness Ashcroft suddenly becomes when he starts attacking a Conservative prime minister.

The second part of your defense contradicts the first you realise?

epicyclo said » They really are going for him now. Sounds like they're pushing for a quick resignation.
Over what ?

There's no legal basis to get rid of him. But can you imagine the next PMQs or even the next G8 meeting? Everyone looking at him, imagining him with the pig.

It's pretty tricky to make the UK look even more ridiculous overseas, but he's managed it.

So when he claims Cameron was fully briefed on his tax status (and thereby must have lied to the house), is he to be trusted or not?

I don't know if he can be trusted, probably not. But as lemonysam points out you already suggested that he can be trusted by claiming that Ashcroft told us stuff we pretty much know anyhow.

I'll remind you that Ashcroft is still an adviser to this present Tory government, if he is untrustworthy and unreliable as you claim it's a rather damning criticism of this government.

I took martinmuchs comment about Ashcroft being reliable as sarcasm

I'm not sure I'd consider any politicuan to be trustworthy

Someone was asking about Ashcroft's motives earlier. [url= http://theleveller.org/2015/09/british-really-laughing/ ]This is a fairly succinct summary[/url]:

"Ashcroft’s goal is, according to the Mail, “revenge”. In the years leading up to Cameron taking office in 2010, the tax-dodging billionaire had donated over £8 million to the Conservative Party, bailing them out of debt after their disastrous election defeat in 2005. He had worked as Treasurer and later Deputy Chairman of the party, helping to manage them back to an electable public image under Cameron. Yet Ashcroft had expected that he would be given high office in exchange for this, and Cameron didn’t pay up when the time came. It now appears Ashcroft has spent the last five years compiling his new book, Call Me Dave, in which the pig story and other damning allegations about the Prime Minister are made."

... which is pretty shocking in itself.

There was a famous piano player on the radio not so long ago who plays lizard lounge music for the high and mighty at the davos meetings, no press no cameras I'm sure he was hinting at certain pm,s striping and tabletop nose hovering.
There rich,powerful and mostly untouchable by the law. Are we surprised?
As for the mail turning on Dave I can't wait for the coke and stripper story's to surface about his next door neighbor. It's a good job they are not on welfare handouts or channel 4 would be filming.

The second part of your defense contradicts the first you realise?

Not defending him. He's clearly an arsehole. Simply suggesting that the the sum total of Ashcroft's allegations do not amount to a resignation issue.

I am amused that Ashcroft is some tax-dodging, DEA-attracting antichrist when he's an ally of Cameron, but becomes a model of probity and reliability to some when he's attacking him.

How much of this stuff do we actually have secondary evidence to support? I'm a bit surprised that Isabel Oakeshott is so relaxed about it. I suppose it's a safish bet that no serving PM would get himself embroiled in a libel case involving his dick and a pig's head.

[i]But can you imagine the next PMQs or even the next G8 meeting?[/i]

I can't see other world leaders doign that sort of thing 😉

[img] [/img]

I am amused that Ashcroft is some tax-dodging, DEA-attracting antichrist when he's an ally of Cameron, but becomes a model of probity and reliability to some when he's attacking him.

Go on then......how many people have been claiming that Ashcroft is "a model of probity and reliability" ?

The consensus appears to be that no one can be sure that it's true but they can imagine Cameron putting his knob in a dead pig's head.

And you could be equally [i]"amused"[/i] that Ashcroft was a highly respected adviser to the Tories but has now become someone who shouldn't even be "dignified" by commenting on his allegations.

It would be nice if Ashcroft and Cameron destroyed each other. A pair of vile human beings stabbing each other in the back over their greed and hunger for power. It would be even better if they brought down a few other cabinet members in the process as well.

The panto season is in full swing and we haven't even started on Europe yet!

Love the photo montage.

I'll remind you that Ashcroft is still an adviser to this present Tory government, if he is untrustworthy and unreliable as you claim it's a rather damning criticism of this government.

I don't think this is right - he turned done being a junior whip in the Lords in 2010 and went off to do his own independent polling and bought loads of specialist political websites like ConservativeHome and the Dods' ones. He is resigning from the Lords too now, or has done.

And you could be equally "amused" that Ashcroft was a highly respected adviser to the Tories but has now become someone who shouldn't even be "dignified" by commenting on his allegations.

Political expediency is always amusing.

Compare and contrast:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/jul/08/tory-past-behaviour-tom-baldwin

Dismissed by Labour as a diversionary tactic to draw attention away from the Coulson scandal. Probably was, but there you go.

And in relation to this particular fandango, suddenly the words of Lord Ashcroft raise 'serious questions'.

Jonathan Ashworth MP, Labour’s shadow minister without portfolio, called on Cameron to clarify his knowledge of Ashcroft’s tax status and whether he had agreed with Ashcroft effectively to mislead the British public ahead of the 2010 election.

He said: “Amidst the furore around Lord Ashcroft’s new book there lies a serious question mark over the consistency of the prime minister’s statements about the peer’s tax status.

As rene says, it's always nice to see the Conservative top brass taking chunks out of each other. I suppose it's the inevitable consequence of an emasculated opposition.

It's pretty tricky to make the UK look even more ridiculous overseas, but he's managed it.

I'm not sure the UK looks ridiculous overseas, at least it doesn't in Spain. The pig story hasn't done much for Cameron's personal image, though.

So if Dave had simply wrapped a nice piece of pork loin around his cock, would there be such outrage?

We should also remember that Cameron has said he won't serve a third term.

There's going to be a lot of people trying to influence who's the next Tory leader (and, possibly/probably PM).

Maybe trying to get Cameron to go sooner rather than later favours someone's chosen candidate?

So if Dave had simply wrapped a nice piece of pork loin around his cock, would there be such outrage?

Is the answer going to affect your evening plans?

He won't go. But perhaps there is a hope for a more eurosceptic flavour in the upcoming EU referendum debate, in which Cameron will strongly argue for staying in. Weaken him, weaken the pro-EU case.

That's the only tactical advantage for the book's release at this moment that I can see.

I don't think this is right - he turned done being a junior whip in the Lords in 2010 and went off to do his own independent polling and bought loads of specialist political websites like ConservativeHome and the Dods' ones. He is resigning from the Lords too now, or has done.

Well according to the Daily Telegraph Lord Ashcroft "could be dismissed as government adviser" which very strongly suggests that he has been a government adviser since 2010.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/11881124/Lord-Ashcroft-could-be-dismissed-as-government-adviser.html

He resigned from the Lords last March.

Meanwhile, in other news, Samantha Cameron was seen in Boots yesterday buying a gallon of weapons-grade mouthwash.....

It's pretty tricky to make the UK look even more ridiculous overseas, but he's managed it.

Vice did a piece asking people (well, journalists) around Europe what they thought about it. Some of them are pretty funny, but the abiding theme is "yeah, we've always thought the Brits are a bunch of perverts"

http://www.vice.com/read/how-european-vice-offices-reacted-to-piggate-876

Also, the standard for what's considered bad behaviour in Serbia is epic.

martinhutch - Member

And in relation to this particular fandango, suddenly the words of Lord Ashcroft raise 'serious questions'.

You don't think it does ?

I certainly do. I think that if Cameron lied to Parliament / the British people concerning whether he knew about Ashcroft's tax status then we should be told, why on earth do you think it should be ignored ?

Even if we can't be sure that it is true it certainly raises 'serious questions'.

That's the only tactical advantage for the book's release at this moment that I can see.

My feeling on it was that Ashcroft is obliquely attacking Osbourne. If Cameron can be forced out now then Osbourne's likely to succeed and is going to face a tricky few years negotiating with the euroskeptics and with the potential that a sequel could be just around the corner. Plus whilst preparing the book it's unlikely that he'd have seen Corbyn coming so he may have expected a challenge in the centre ground there.

If Ashcroft's/the Mail have their eye on another candidate - May perhaps - then they could be playing the long game.

[url= http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2015/09/what-lord-ashcroft-s-plan ]Sensible analysis here[/url]

Well according to the Daily Telegraph Lord Ashcroft "could be dismissed as government adviser" which very strongly suggests that he has been a government adviser since 2010.

Fair enough, I stand corrected

I don't know if the Mail can see much beyond the attraction of running a story about the Prime Minister's dick and a pig.

They know that whoever wants to succeed him will have to come grovelling to them for support anyhow.

The whole point of Ashcroft's book is to portray Cameron as a privileged, slippery toff with a Tony Blair like Teflon quality. Which is hardly news.
It's a mild type of revenge, as Cameron won't fight the next election anyway. It Ashcroft really meant business he would have published the book before the election. His credentials as a Machiavellian Bastard have accordingly gone down in my opinion.

They originally planned to publish before the election but it was deferred - I know they were extremely frustrated they couldn't nail him for cocaine use - maybe they postponed to do a bit more digging, but this is mere speculation.

Is the answer going to affect your evening plans?

The hope wasn’t to bring down Cameron but to humilate him in retirement. Ashcroft was bruised by a failure to consult him about big decisions during the 2010 campaign and the offer of what he saw as a derisory role as a Foreign Office whip after the election.

What’s really happening is that Ashcroft, like Seldon, thought he was “writing about a corpse”. Instead, he faces a prime minister who is very much alive. It may well be that Ashcroft himself comes out worst from the clash.

Very plausible imo mefty.

For me by far the most objectionable person in this whole saga has been Isabel Oakeshott, I found that there was something deeply unpleasant about her as she did the interview circuit yesterday. She actually made me feel sorry for Cameron. Presumably she's the one who actually wrote the book.

And apparently it was Isabel Oakeshott who persuaded Vicky Pryce to implicate her husband Chris Huhne and therefore herself as having perverted the course of justice, leading to them both being jailed.

http://www.newstatesman.com/staggers/2013/03/isabel-oakeshott-vicky-pryce-double-crossed-me

[i]The Sunday Times journalist reveals her side of the discussions which led to the conviction of Chris Huhne and his ex-wife for perverting the course of justice[/i]

And apparently it was Isabel Oakeshott who persuaded Vicky Pryce to implicate her husband Chris Huhne and therefore herself as having perverted the course of justice, leading to them both being jailed.

Something she is immensely proud of, even though Pryce was a friend, journalism is a bizarre trade, I certainly couldn't stomach it.

EDIT: BTW Ernie, Stephen Bush's analysis is often pretty good - he was the first to say Corbyn would win the leadership.

No. I was just wondering at what point abusing a piece of dead meat becomes offensive to people who weren't there.

It's not offensive, it's hilarious. And that's the point.

Cameron's done many offensive things - his government has relentlessly attacked the poor, even causing some to kill themselves, he's refused to do anything substantive about the refugee crisis he had a hand in creating, just this week he's stopping free school meals.

All those things are good reasons to dislike and loathe him - now we've got a reason to laugh at him too.

There's no legal basis to get rid of him.

slowoldman - Member

No. I was just wondering at what point abusing a piece of dead meat becomes offensive to people who weren't there.

It's not so much offensive to me. But it does do 2 things. One is that it reminds people once again just how far removed the dude is from normal people, and what it really means to be the "ruling class".

But also... Here we have a man who'll happily **** a dead pig, in order to get into an exclusive club at uni. What will he do in order to get in bed with China, or to secure himself a post-PM role with an arms dealer or whatever? Literally anything, is the answer.

All those things are good reasons to dislike and loathe him - now we've got a reason to laugh at him too.

Yeah. There's some nice commentary here: http://theleveller.org/2015/09/british-really-laughing/

What will he do in order to get in bed with China, or to secure himself a post-PM role with an arms dealer or whatever?

What would he do to get a billionaire to donate a load of cash into party funds?

But also... Here we have a man who'll happily **** a dead pig, in order to get into an exclusive club at uni.

Cameron denies ever being in the Piers Gaveston Society.

Is an unnamed person who someone who openly admits to having a grudge against Cameron claims told them that he had seen a photograph really a reliable source ?

You seem to think so with your question "What will he do in order to get in bed with China, or to secure himself a post-PM role with an arms dealer or whatever?". But I have no idea why.

Of course it could be true, anything could be, including the suggestion that Cameron has buried dead hookers under his patio.

[i]the suggestion that Cameron has buried dead hookers under his patio. [/i]

It's not got quite the same comedy potential as the pigs head episode though, has it?

This is very true wwaswas.

Btw even the author of the book has clearly (and very sensibly) stated that they don't know if it's true.

So I'm not sure why some people appear to be treating the allegation as if it's definitely true.

He would have got someone else to bury the hookers for him as part of the initiation for joining the club.

Let's get one thing straight, there is not a snowballs chance in hell this story or its "fallout" will cause Cameron to resign or face a leadership challenge. Zero.

Ashcroft has scores to settle and a book to sell, let's face it apart from this "revelation" who would be remotely interested in a book about his political career ? My view is the story is made up, Ashcroft knows Cameron won't sue so he can do what he wants with impunity.

With Prime-Ministerial porcine pokeage in the papers, you'd be forgiven for thinking that something else important might have been missed from the news yesterday as we were all preoccupied.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/free-school-meals-for-infants-set-to-be-scrapped-under-osbornes-spending-review-10509664.html ]Here[/url]

That came up yesterday.

If he's 'allowed' the pig thing to appear to cover up the school meals removal he's gone above and beyond in the 'taking one for the team' stakes.

Let's get one thing straight, there is not a snowballs chance in hell this story or its "fallout" will cause Cameron to resign or face a leadership challenge. Zero.

Erm, if it turns out that Cameron was guilty of a barefaced lie to Parliament when he claimed that he hadn't known about Ashcroft's tax status it will certainly weaken him politically. Any political blows like that will hasten his departure.

.

let's face it apart from this "revelation" who would be remotely interested in a book about his political career ?

Quite a lot of people. Weren't you aware that books about senior politicians are often bestsellers ?

My point being that there are other things in the news that require popular outrage to be directed against them.

While the thought of our PM squirming at the thought of some dark secret being revealed fills me with schadenfreude, I'd like to see George Osborne being grilled for hitting poor families again.

No one's outraged by the pig thing though. Just enjoying it 🙂

The other stuff it's what's attracting their ire.

jambalaya - Member
Let's get one thing straight, there is not a snowballs chance in hell this story or its "fallout" will cause Cameron to resign or face a leadership challenge. Zero.

unless the alleged photographic evidence actually turns up

how many days is the mail serialising this for? I wonder what they are saving for the Mail on Sunday?

[i]I wonder what they are saving for the Mail on Sunday[/i]

The full spit roast?

George Osborne (also of Eton..)

Not so! He went to St Pauls and therefore had the sobriquet 'Oik' Osborne, bestowed on him by the imperious Etonian members of the Bullingdon.

[img] [/img]

Here we have a man who'll happily **** a dead pig, in order to get into an exclusive club at uni.

Well ~20 year old so not really a man and TBH I've heard far worse at Uni's.

As for that schools meal policy, it was always rubbish and more of a sop to the Lib Dems. I'm not surprised to see it binned at all.

dragon - Member
Well ~20 year old so not really a man and TBH I've heard far worse at Uni's.

I went to university in rural wales and took a fairly large amount of drugs, Im not aware of anyone getting sucked off by the head of a dead pig or similar

As for that schools meal policy, it was always rubbish and more of a sop to the Lib Dems. I'm not surprised to see it binned at all.

now we know you are trolling

I'm not surprised to see it binned at all.

Even though they made a commitment only a few months ago before the general election not to 'bin it' ?

You've got a very low opinion of the Tories dragon.

No one's outraged by the pig thing though. Just enjoying it

Some Vegans are a bit upset, there's not enough consideration being shown for the dignity of the pig.

As for that schools meal policy, it was always rubbish and more of a sop to the Lib Dems. I'm not surprised to see it binned at all.

Meanwhile, up here in civilisation, my daughter still gets free school meals along with everyone else in her class. Because well-fed kids learn better.

What PJM said plus this [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/depressed-man-killed-himself-as-a-direct-result-of-dwps-fit-to-work-ruling-coroner-finds-10510305.html ]No one more releived at #Piggate than IDS[/url]

I thought this was a good read about why it matters:
http://theleveller.org/2015/09/british-really-laughing/
/p>

Warning - contains jhj content 🙂

As for that schools meal policy, it was always rubbish and more of a sop to the Lib Dems. I'm not surprised to see it binned at all.

🙄

Healthy, well fed and attentative kids, not fizzing with sugar and other rubbish. Such a crap idea eh? Not to mention all the money that had to be spent on setting up the infrastructure to deliver it. On a personal note that's me down £400 a year.

It strikes me that the pigs head isn't the only think that has been ****ed.

They also quietly sold off a chunk of the NHS to a US company and paid back that EU debt in full... the one that they said they wouldn't just before the election.

Can't wait to read the story about Boris punching a zebra the day that they shaft us with something else.

Ashcroft knows Cameron won't sue so he can do what he wants with impunity.

How long before a "full and earnest" review of Ashcrofts tax status and dealings?

Never - Ashcroft isn't the only political donor with interesting tax arrangements.

Never - Ashcroft isn't the only political donor with interesting tax arrangements.

But the only one who's tried to rattle the PMs cage....

Only one in 1,000 children who gets free school meals ends up making it to Oxbridge, while in contrast most children who enjoy Eton's delicious school meals make it.

Which I think proves dragon's point that the policy of free school meals is rubbish.

Probably NSFW:

Cameron's generation is the last that won't have already published the damning evidence of their youthful, errm, indiscretions themselves.

[img] [/img]

the lack of a robust denial does seem odd, maybe damien has a point

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/22/david-cameron-advisers-piggate-spin-doctor

Perhaps the “what’s the truth?” conversation with the prime minister wasn’t as clear cut as they might have liked, and they had no option but to let the story run, let everyone have their fun, and get on with the business of governing. Better that than officially denying the story and creating a much bigger problem for themselves if the alleged photographic evidence of the pig incident did emerge.

Hence the official line that the prime minister’s spokeswoman issued yesterday, saying they would not dignify the book’s claims with a response, almost word-for-word the quote I used routinely in my old job when responding to an allegation in a book that I knew to be true,

I went to university in rural wales and took a fairly large amount of drugs, Im not aware of anyone getting sucked off by the head of a dead pig or similar

Me neither. I went to a comprehensive and we had to make do with a cheesy bap.

wwaswas - what were you googling????

*looks a bit shifty*

It was on this twitter:

[url= https://twitter.com/michaeljhudson ]https://twitter.com/michaeljhudson[/url]

although I've since seen it with 'this Aladdin remake is a bit low rent' as a title, which I prefer 🙂

He (David Cameron) told the 300 guests that he had had to go to hospital earlier in the day for a bad back, the result of some over-energetic wood chopping in his constituency at the weekend.
The surgeon told Mr Cameron that he would need an injection and asked him to lie on his front.
The doctor then said: "This will just be a little prick, just a stab in the back."
Which, the prime minister said, "rather summed up my day".

That is very drole

[img] [/img]

Well ~20 year old so not really a man and TBH I've heard far worse at Uni's.

Out of interest can you give us some examples of far worse antics.

Also does anyone on here know of anyone at Uni or elsewhere who decided that shagging dead animals whilst their mates stared at your bits was a good idea. Personally I have a lot of Uni/Forces/Rubgy mates who were wildly out of control and none of them ever did anything comparable to this.

whilst their mates stared at your bits

*photographed your bits. Iftfy.

Some Vegans are a bit upset, there's not enough consideration being shown for the dignity of the pig

the lack of a robust denial does seem odd, maybe damien has a point

One cannot deny the truth

TBH most folk would be rather outraged if someone suggested they did this and I would certainly be having my day in court with anyone who says this of me.
IMHO its just an admission it is true and they cannot say otherwise.

unless the alleged photographic evidence

..and on the subject of things this thread is useless without. This will just have to do meantime[img] [/img]

kimbers - Member

the lack of a robust denial does seem odd

Even odder is the fact that the book's 2 authors haven't claimed that the story is true. But you want Cameron to deny something which no one has claimed is true? Now that is odd.

.

Junkyard - lazarus

I would certainly be having my day in court with anyone who says this of me.
IMHO its just an admission it is true and they cannot say otherwise.

Who would you be taking to court......the unnamed person who claims only to have seen a photograph purporting to show Cameron with his knob in a pig's head, and who the author of the book claim they have been unable to contact to establish what his views on publishing the allegation are?

This is what the co-author of the book Isabel Oakeshott has said : [i]"We were very careful in the way in which we worded the story and it's up to people to decide whether they think it's true or not – we don't say whether we believe it to be true."[/i]

Why do you think Ashcroft is stupid enough to leave himself open to successful libel action?

Always struggle with links in my tablet but have a look at @jimllpaintit on twitter.

the lack of a robust denial does seem odd, maybe damien has a point

What's also interesting is the way the Downing Street response has shown us a bit about how out of touch they are. Presumably they've not been able to focus group the question "what would you think about the PM if it turned out he'd played hide the sausage with a pig? a) top lad, great banter, b) we've all been there, or c) WTF is wrong with you?" so they have no idea how non-lizard human people are likely to respond. Hence the sight of Toby Young trying to claim that he "comes out of all this rather well" and "it just shows how normal he is" - they just don't know any better.

The paper would be the only possible target for a libel action, unless Ashcroft starts getting lairy on Twitter or something.

Cameron would be mad to go to court IMO.

Presumably they've not been able to focus group the question "what would you think about the PM if it turned out he'd played hide the sausage with a pig? a) top lad, great banter, b) we've all been there, or c) WTF is wrong with you?" so they have no idea how non-lizard human people are likely to respond.

The question has been asked :

[i]A YouGov poll, which was conducted between 21 and 22 September, discovered British voters did not care about the claims. The online survey, of more than 2,600 people, also found only 25% of voters thought Lord Ashcroft's claims constituted a "legitimate public interest story" and 62% thought the allegations "couldn't matter less".[/i]

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/david-cameron-hits-back-lord-153738161.html#ODHVze1

What's also interesting is the way the Downing Street response has shown us a bit about how out of touch they are.

Alternatively, if* it indicates that the Prime Minister thinks there are more important things for his press officials to deal with than ancient stories about him, then it would be quite refreshing. Governments shouldn't be obsessed with what is in the papers and if they are not that is a good thing.

* note the conditional, I am merely noting this alternative analysis.

This reminds me of the guy I was at school with who caught a fish (bass), gutted it, and looked at the empty, smooth and slimy part where the guts had been removed from and proceeded to...

were you there obleix? or are you merely recounting the story from someone who might have taken a picture of it but now can't be found?