MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
[quote=dannyh said]Why have Honda, Nissan, BMW etc all invested in UK car plants?
Massive government subsidies and tax breaks.
Next question, please.
OK, how many people in the UK have jobs due to those companies choosing to manufacture in UK ?
No manufacturing in Britain?
I don't think anybody said that. We can do better, particularly in the areas of the country that were wrecked in the 80's.
So the Uk isnt as bad as you might imagine when it comes to manufacturing and work.
Not bad, could be, should be better.
and when you compare to places like Spain whrere I am with 25% unemployment and no talk of an economic up turn, with british management held in the highest regard for the sector I'm in then were a pretty brilliant country that is doing pretty well in the world.
They are never going to get out of trouble if they think like that.
built on 30% of the workforce on less than the OECD poverty level
Wow - that's disabused me of my preconceptions! How does that compare to UK?
Care to share the source???
A quick google suggests US has the fourth highest OECD poverty rate, after Mexico (1), Israel (2)!, Chile (3), and followed by Turkey (5)!!!
If mining was still going.. it would be owned by Chinese investment, employing a chinese workforce and exporting all of the coal over to China.
And if the mine wasn't yeilding enough, China would probably be suing the government for poor performance of their investment.
Likely to actually happen in Canada
Canada-China FIPA
Tumbler Ridge Mine
Enbridge Pipeline
OK, how many people in the UK have jobs due to those companies choosing to manufacture in UK ?
If your point is to demonstrate that there are manufacturing jobs in the UK, no one is denying that, so you need to stop deflecting away from the issue that under Thatcher, investment in this sector of the economy dropped dramatically, as the ideology for the time was to "invest" in other sectors.
as the Germans allow most of their workforce to work for peanuts. and the euro to subsidise their exports.
Good for them I think. Anyone any comparisons for the cost of living for Germany compared to the UK? I think I know the answer.
Mines closed during Margaret Thatcher's premiership - 25
I could probably rustle up 25 names just from South Wales!
Granted, they might span the full period of the Tory government, but even so, 25 sounds like a huge under estimate
if they'd had half an eye on the middle to long term, but no, they went for EVERYTHING NOW, or else.
You could also attribute that to shareholders and bankers could you not?
Perhaps it's human nature that's part of the problem?
If your point is to demonstrate that there are manufacturing jobs in the UK, no one is denying that, so you need to stop deflecting away from the issue that under Thatcher, investment in this sector of the economy dropped dramatically, as the ideology for the time was to "invest" in other sectors.
Thanks for clarifying the questions we're allowed to ask 🙂
Still interested in these German low wage economy stats...
As I stated, a quick search suggests that average monthly salaries in Germany are higher than the UK - and the germans reportedly dont have the hyper-high end executive pay that we do to skew the average
Still interested in these German low wage economy stats
See above, second paragraph of 'EU Criticism' section
My sense - and I can't prove this - is that after the war the Germans rebuilt their manufacturing economy with a conscious effort to pursue high-value specialist goods (obviously generalising a bit). For some reason, the UK decided to go after low value high volume manufacturing; that is mostly sensitive to relative wage costs, and on those you just cannot compete with low-wage economies when they come along.
For instance, the Japanese flooded the west with poor-quality massively-subsidised products as they started to get their economy back. The UK just could not compete.
To my mind, rather than re-basing the economy and adapting, Thatcher just closed large chunks of it down out of spite.
Just my views.
i dont know where the OECD or the germand political groups calling for minimum wage are getting their stats, but 30% is a very high figure to claim.
if its even remotely accurate it is quite something. I would estimate that a lot of that is due to Eastern Germany having been so far behind Western Germany that wages have never caught up. thats just an opinion but the article seems to highlight the problems with the French and Belgian border areas so not simply a East German thing.
Germany is not a high wage country, and its wages have not grown in recent years like the rest of Europe.
The foundations of the German economy were laid well before the start of the Euro, the single currency has only built on well laid foundations. If some of you recall BMW did not do so well with it's move into Rover (it should have gone to Honda). They got shut of the "english patient" and kept the bits they wanted which included the 4x4 technology from Land Rover.
Given we have governments (left, middle, right) made of people with little or no understanding of manufacturing (or work) in the UK, those of us that work in it are doing very well despite the difficulties. Many government ministers for the most part are not even allowed to have cars made in this country, that is stupid (industry minister for gods sake). Like many other countries purchases by government must whenever possible come from UK manufactured/grown goods. If you take the social costs into account it has to be better to have people doing things. As they do in Germany.
You could also attribute that to shareholders and bankers could you not?
Perhaps it's human nature that's part of the problem?
A point I made in my post!
mt, I think after the Siemens rail fiasco the government has introduced legislaton for government tenders to include social costs in the bid process
Yeah, but what about my milk!
Re:
Mines closed during Harold Wilsons' premiership - 212
Mines closed during Margaret Thatcher's premiership - 25
Some pit closure stats - source - BBC
[url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3514549.stm ]BBC article, 2004[/url]
[b]March 1984[/b] - at the start of the Miner's Strike - "[b]174 [/b]collieries". Not specified if these were deep mines etc.
"[b]1985[/b] alone" - [b]25 closures[/b]
"[b]by 1992[/b]" - [b]97[/b] closed
By 2004 - 156 closed....
[b]ETA - S Wales only[/b] - that's more than 25. And Tower to add to that list. [url= http://www.welshcoalmines.co.uk/forum/read.php?14,7169 ]stolen from here[/url]
Deep Duffryn 1979
Blaenavon 1980
Cwmgwili (transferred to private ownership) 1980 (I thought it was a bit later - 1982)
Coegnant 1981
Tymawr (inc Lewis Merthyr) 1983
Blaengwrach 1983
Bryniliw (was Brynlliw / Morlais) 1983
Britannia 1983
Wyndham / Western 1984
Celynen North (merged with Oakdale) 1985
Bedwas 1985
Blaenserchan (merged with Six Bells) 1985
Celynen South 1985
Treforgan 1985
Aberpergwm (as a BCC mine) 1985 (still operating under private ownership)
Penrikyber 1985
Abertillery 1985
St. John?s (Glam) 1985
Garw 1985
Cwm 1986
Nantgarw (was Nantgarw/Windsor) 1986
Six Bells (already merged with Marine) 1987 (I thought 1988)
Abernant 1988
Lady Windsor/Abercynon 1988
Cynheidre (was Cynheidre/Pentremawr) 1989
Merthyr Vale 1989
Oakdale 1989
Trelewis 1989
Blaenant 1990
Deep Navigation 1991
Marine 1989
Penallta 1991
Taff Merthyr 1992
Betws 2003 (under private ownership)This is only the British Coal collieries and doesn't include any of the small licensed mines of which numerous ones have shut since 1979
Thanks for clarifying the questions we're allowed to ask
Ask what you like, but you and people here already knew the answer. As I've said it was a poor attempt by a Tory to deflect criticism away from their god.
A point I made in my post!
Im gonna blame the fact I was reading on a phone at work 🙂
This seems to dispel the closure figs of 25 under the Tory govt 1979 - 1990:
Source: [url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3500979.stm ]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3500979.stm[/url]
Pit closures, year by year for Thatcher years up to 1997.
CLOSURES IN 1984, MARCH ONWARDS
Bearpark, Co Durham
Cronton, Merseyside
CLOSURES IN 1985
Aberpergwm, South Wales
Abertillery, South Wales
Ackton Hall, Yorkshire
Bedwas, South Wales
Bold, Merseyside
Brenkley, Tyne and Wear
Brookhouse, Yorkshire
Cortonwood, Yorkshire
Emley Moor, Yorkshire
Fryston, Yorkshire
Garw, South Wales
Haig, Cumbria
Herrington, Co Durham
Margam, South Wales
Moor Green, Nottinghamshire
Penrhiwceiber, South Wales
Pye Hill, Nottinghamshire
Sacriston, Co Durham
St Johns, South Wales
Savile, Yorkshire
Treforgan, South Wales
Wolstanton, Staffordshire
Yorkshire Main, Yorkshire
CLOSURES IN 1986
Babbington, Nottinghamshire
Bates, Northumberland
Bersham, North Wales
Birch Coppice, Warwickshire
Cadeby, Yorkshire
Comrie, Fife
Cwm, South Wales
Eppleton, Co Durham
Glasshoughton, Yorkshire
Horden, Co Durham
Kinsley, Yorkshire
Ledston Luck, Yorkshire
Nantgarw / Winsor, South Wales
Polkemmet, West Lothian
Tilmanstone, Kent
Whitwell, Nottinghamshire
Whitwick/ South Leicester, Leicestershire
CLOSURES IN 1987
Newstead, Nottinghamshire
Nostell, Yorkshire
Polmaise 3/4, Stirling
Snowdown, Kent
Wheldale, Yorkshire
Whittal, Co Durham
Woolley, Yorkshire
Silverwood, Yorkshire
CLOSURES IN 1988
Abernant, South Wales
Arkwright, Derbyshire
Ashington, Northumberland
Cadley Hill, Derbyshire
Lady Winsor / Abercynon, South Wales
Linby, Nottinghamshire
Mansfield, Nottinghamshire
Manvers complex, Yorkshire
Seafield/ Frances, Fife
South Kirkby/ Riddings, Yorkshire
CLOSURES IN 1989
Baddesley, Warwickshire
Barnburgh, Yorkshire
Barony, Ayreshire
Betteshanger, Kent
Bilston Glen, Mid Lothian
Blidworth, Nottinghamshire
Cynheidre, South Wales
Holditch, Staffordshire
Marine/ Six Bells, South Wales
Merthyr Vale, South Wales
Oakdale, South Wales
Renishaw Park, Yorkshire
Royston, Yorkshire
Sutton, Nottinghamshire
Trelewis, South Wales
Warsop, Nottinghamshire
CLOSURES IN 1990
Agecroft, Lancashire
Ellistown, Leicestershire
Lea Hall, Staffordshire
Littleton, Staffordshire
Shireoaks/ Steetley, Nottinghamshire
Treeton, Yorkshire
Donnisthorpe/ Rawdon, Leicestershire
Florence, Cumbria
CLOSURES IN 1991
Askern, Yorkshire
Bagworth, Leicestershire
Barnsley Main, Yorkshire
Creswell, Derbyshire
Dawdon, Co Durham
Dearne Valley, Yorkshire
Deep Navigation, South Wales
Denby Grange, Yorkshire
Dinnington, Yorkshire
Gedling, Nottinghamshire
Murton, Co Durham
Penallta, South Wales
Sutton Manor, Merseyside
Thurcroft, Yorkshire
CLOSURES IN 1992
Allerton Bywater, Yorkshire
Bickershaw Complex, Lancashire
Cotgrave, Nottinghamshire
Sherwood, Nottinghamshire
Shirebrook, Derbyshire
Silverhill, Nottinghamshire
CLOSURES IN 1993
Bentley, Yorkshire
Bolsover, Derbyshire
Easington, Co Durham
Frickley/S Elmsall, Yorkshire
Grimethorpe, Yorkshire
Houghton/Darfield, Yorkshire
Parkside, Merseyside
Rufford, Nottinghamshire
Sharlston, Yorkshire
Taff Merthyr, South Wales
Vane Tempest/ Seaham, Co Durham
Westoe, Tyne and Wear
CLOSURES IN 1994
Goldthorpe/ Hickelton, Yorkshire
Kiveton Park, Yorkshire
Markham, Derbyshire
Manton, Nottinghamshire
Ollerton, Nottinghamshire
Wearmouth, Co Durham
CLOSURES IN 1995
Bilsthorpe, Nottinghamshire
CLOSURES IN 1996
Coventry, West Midlands
Hem Heath, Staffordshire
Markham Main, Yorkshire
Point of Ayr, North Wales
CLOSURES IN 1997
No collieries closed this year
The thing was with British industry it was seen as a career, dad mum uncle brother sister usually worked fr the same company, this built company loyalty and almost a guaranteed job,the working class ethic wass trong, mrs thatcher decided she had to destroy it and first took on the miners and local authority staff and she won due to the heavy handed ness of the police and courts and the media.
She then determinedly sold off large publicly owned companies, and almost gave them away to her mates in the financial arena, only 2 have survided the bbc and network rail.
Project. That's an interesting take on what happened. I seem to remember being able to buy shares in the various companies sold off by the state in the 80's and 90's. did not approve of it but many did as the sales were always over subscribed and there was a limit to the number of shares you could purchase. Many of the companies sold off are still there doing pretty well (disgustingly so).
Like it or not, the Tory government at the time had a mandate to do some of what they did to get industrial problems undercontrol, sorting some unions with to much power was a very popular idea in the late 70s and 80's. labour had tried to do this for a number of years ( union reform) but was unable make it work. it was tough for many but there was a lot public support including from union members. What happened to the miners was a perfect storm to finish them, without going into to much detail or covering old ground on other threads. A strong manager of NCB ( can you remember his bag on head on head antics?) backed by a strong government meets strong union leader, union has member issues. All UK power station pretty much rammed with coal, a very good summer and not to cold winter. It took a year but the miners lost, they were never going to win. Battle fought at the wrong time without the right planning with poor leadership. Joe Gormley (hearts and minds) would have done a better job. Many in this area went back earlier than others as they knew that their pit was finished but all of them were ruined financially and some never recovered (though the chaps I work with did). If the NCBs initial closures had gone ahead with the redundancy terms on offer a significant portion of the miner would have voted against the strike, they'd have still voted to strike though in my view. As there was no ballot on the strike called, some individuals/regions carried on working, this split was exploited fully by the government. Arthur lead from the front in many ways and that has made him a hero to many but he could have done better for his followers. On a brighter note some of the old mines are now wild life havens and not bad for a bit of biking. To me it's like another age now but during that period I lost jobs due to redundancy and was really skint, everyone seemed to be at the time. Happy days?
Flame away if you were there, if you weren't well whatever.
So back to coal then. Are we saying that while everyone else's gets used up, we're still sitting on millions of tons of it waiting for the price of it to start going up?
Price of coal needs to go up an awful long way to pay for all the dole payments.
Coal industry is still pretty active in the NE.
[i]The number of foreign owned manufacturers operating in the UK would suggest that UK industry suffered from mismanagement and a lack of long term investment rather than simply high wages. [/i]
Yep. And working for the last 30 years that is still my view of one of the many problems we still have - although tbh its pretty much shared across much of the world based upon having worked in most developed countries at one time or another.
OP
Yes and still is
It is still thriving
She didn't
Simple answers too!
When i left school i got a pretty good job in engineering along with quite a few of my friends.This was the second half of the seventies.
The factory,a foundry ,was run by shop stewards,who seemed hell bent on running it into the ground.Flash strikes were called and everybody walked out for a few hours.Most workers didn't even know what they were striking for.
Investment was non existent,but the directors had shiny new Jags each year.I remember one of the sales reps cars being brush painted to save money.
Some of the production line machinery dated back from before 1914 and repeatedly broke down.
Gradually people were made redundant,including me,and it finally shut down.Friends in engineering also lost their jobs around this time and no one went back into the industry they had trained for.
This was a waste as everyone had been to college for years and gained qualifications but jobs in this field had finished.
It seemed at the time that govt policies became skewed to service industries and we would become a " nation of shopkeepers".
Heavy industries could have survived at this time but everybody contributed to their downfall,not just the government.
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These arethe main reason for the decline in industrial employment. But it's no excuse for simply failing to manage demanualisation. I do fear however that the solution would have looked a bit like this
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