[Closed] British Industry Mining/manufacturing THATCHER

So if the land is still full of coal and the demand is so high for it (and the jobs) why is there no mass re opening of the mines?

because alot of the land that were mining sites has been developed into housing/parks etc. no way would they remove these to reopen mines.

There are new mines being opened except they are open cast, there is an enormous one at Dowlais.

its not enormous its big and its only getting bigger... alot bigger... 4-5times bigger infact

4-5times bigger infact

The global economy can't only be service based, of course. But the UK is only one part of it. I don't see why it has to have its own manufacturing - why can't it sell services to people who're buying with money from manufacturing in other countries?

molgrips - to some extent I agree with your point, but the UK as a whole provides a good illustration as to why this model is not sustainable at a country level.

How many of us can provide services to offshore clients (directly or indirectly), or onshore clients using offshore money?

I (somewhat selfishly) disagreed with Labours 4% Uni education aspirations. Apart from being a tad unrealistic, it sows a high level of expectation on students, devalues the qualifications already in circulation and doesn't match the capacity of the employment market to take up those quals.

The model you have illustrated (and has been attempted) has left a large proportion of the less able / those with less opportunity (and the less willing) with very poor prospects

Tower has just recently actually run out of coal. Not unexpectedly of course.

explain how there is an open cast right next to it in hirwaun with 10-15 yrs worth of coal then?

explain how there is an open cast right next to it in hirwaun with 10-15 yrs worth of coal then?

most likely a different mineral lease?

rkk01 - Member

Figures for mining would not be included with manufacturing

think they usually are as a "base industry"

I thought the Tower mine ceased it underground operations due to geological problems, not the lack of coal, hence the new open cast on site nearby. They are also doing reclamation work on the spoil heaps.

"Figures for mining would not be included with manufacturing" This is true however deep mined coal production was subsidized even though this would be shown as part of GDP. When the mines were shut there were many other related manufacturing jobs lost. Not just pit props and cutting machines, other smaller companies from sheet metal to pies. Fishing tackle and maggot production definitely got hit bad.

Like it or lump it, many mines had to go. However if there could have been some sort of strategic agreement more mines may have been in existence for longer given that they could have been viewed as nationally important asset ( i am aware that there a few still working, nearly).

antigee - Member

rkk01 - Member

Figures for mining would not be included with manufacturing

think they usually are as a "base industry

puts on dunces cap - wrong (edit that is rkk01 is correct) base industries aka primary production are still produced as a a separate series - i thought they'd been combined years ago

think they usually are as a "base industry"

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/hub/business-energy/production-industries/manufacturing click on glossary tab, read def of manufacturing
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Mining_and_quarrying_statistics_-_NACE_Rev._2

explain how there is an open cast right next to it in hirwaun with 10-15 yrs worth of coal then?

The Tower was the pit, the open cast mine is different. There are still a few opencast mines around despite all the deep pits having closed.

Having mined out the northern coal extracts, the colliery was last worked on 18 January 2008 and the official closure of the colliery occurred on 25 January.

Since we all seem so keen on mines today why not visit the National Coal Mining Museum. www.ncm.org.uk/

Its a really interesting place and some folk may even learn what real work was about. Kids love it. Look listen and breath that air down pit, it's what we do.

ffs get your facts right molgrips

worked seam reduced in capacity,
the management team possibilities to extended the length of mine production

* Work another nine faces in the existing workings, in coal classed only as mineral potential

* Address the water problem in the Bute seam, to the northwest

* Open new developments in the Nine Feet seam, 100 m above the existing seam; the Four Feet seam, a further 30 m above

But none of these prospects seemed economic,

so instead they opened an opencast to extract the residual 6m tonnes of anthracite.

Can't imagine we'd still be sending kids down t'pit in 2013. Would you let your children go down a coal mine? Making it nearly 100% safe would be financially unfeasible, and you only have to see how the case of a mine collapse in Wales last year made the news to know that it wouldn't be tolerated.

So I think the mining industry would be dead and gone regardless; Thatcher just hastened its demise.

Interestingly one of the reasons shipbuilding moved to Norway follows a series of shipyard strikes (although not during Thatcher's premiership so it was already on its knees when she finished it off). When the strikes were over and work resumed, a new ship was flooded in dry dock when water was introduced to the plumbing and heating system. Turns out the employees had been stealing lengths of copper pipe from the ship during construction.

From the somewhat sad article in the maritime museum, the cost that this incurred pretty much resulted in major cruise lines such as Cunard switching manufacturing away from the UK.

EDIT whatever.

Oh, and claiming nelson mandela was a terrorist was simply shocking.

I think a great many victims of the ANC might disagree with you there.

yesterdays terrorist tomorrows politician.

you only have to see how the case of a mine collapse in Wales last year made the news to know that it wouldn't be tolerated

IMHO, What happened at Gleision is a very good example of what can happen in the post privatisation vacuum.

Coal mining has gone from a nationalised behemoth (yes, unionised, but very stringently regluated, both externally - M&Q, HSE - and internally), to a a fragmented, privately owned and operated industry.

At it's worst, represented by places like Gleision, the industry has returned to it's Victorian roots, with small bands of miners toiling away by hand in small dark holes in the ground - quite the opposite of the modern mechanised industry that should have been the result of privatisation

Britain currently produces more cars each year than the "boom" years of the early to Mid 1970's - hardly an indicator that we've lost manufacturing as an industry sector. What has changed is the mix of things we make with a focus on higher value manufacturing and products which allow for significant capital investment that can be recovered through innovation and automation - churning out low value products in volume using mass labour isn't something we can compete on any longer.

There's been some sensible discussion so far apart from a few loons, perhaps this bodes well for the future?

However,

And never forget that lives matter more than money.

You won't get far in this country with that attitude sonny. 😉

She may be having a funeral next week, but until we lay her ghost to rest; her legacy, I can only see us lunging from one banker led crisis to another.

Britain currently produces more cars each year than the "boom" years of the early to Mid 1970's

because of inward investment by multinationals looking for a quality workforce - nothing wrong with that but it wasn't part of Thatcher's plan. This should have happened in addition to investment by UK plc in new industries but much of that investment went abroad - a few remnant industries survived and prospered despite, not because of government policies

WTF is "UK plc"? Private sector? State?

One thing for sure - the mining and manufacturing industries would not be alive and well today if the unions had got the salary increases they were asking for.

It was the unions that made a lot of nationalised industries inherently uncompetitive abroad and unprofitable in their own right.

They killed the golden goose in the 70s - Thatcher would not have been necessary if they'd had half an eye on the middle to long term, but no, they went for EVERYTHING NOW, or else.

These industries could have had a managed decline (a sort of evolutionary dying out), but instead the unions provoked a clash that was only going to end one way.

Thatcher had seen the Heath government brought down by the unions, she prepared the ground, stockpiled coal, noted the dwindling% of energy that came from coal and then waited for someone to do something stupid (enter Scargill).

You cannot have a country where elected governments can be overthrown by a few union bosses (or bank CEOs for that matter).

Banking executives have been doing soemthing similar - except their D-Day was caused by stupidity rather than subterfuge.

Different people, different times, similar motives.

These industries could have had a managed decline (a sort of evolutionary dying out)

Have you read (understood?) nothing of the above???

Our views of these industries have been conditioned (by both sides of the politcal spectrum)

What was required was investment and [i]revitalisation[/i]

Plenty of examples aboves as to why it is beneficial to be involved in these PROFITABLE activities, even in a developed, western economy.

Have TATA invested in UK steelworks with a business plan marked "Managed Decline"?

Why have Honda, Nissan, BMW etc all invested in UK car plants? Throwing good money away? Surely that's what UK Govmts do, not astutue foreign capitalists?

Our pre-conditioned views are bad for our economy!

It was the unions that made a lot of nationalised industries inherently uncompetitive abroad and unprofitable in their own right.

There was an interesting piece on R4 Pm last night...

The polarisation of views re UK industry, decline and politics tends to focus on the politicians and unions - less emphasis is generally placed on the equally culpable management...

... and even less on the banking industry..

Without wanting to flog a (currently) popular whipping post, the commentator compared UK and German investment bank activities during the 70s and 80s. In Germany the banking sector resolutely backed - ie provided investment for, German manufacturing industry. In the UK, the banking sector were chasing "sexier" offshore opportunities and largely ignored investment in the UK.

Now, in part, this will be due to the role of Govt funding in UK Nationalised industries and private capital in German private industry, but even so the discussion exposed the stark contrast in the levels of investment in the UK.

rkk01. Agree with your comments regarding difference in Govt/banking funding for UK and Germany.
UK financial sector has a very long history but from it's start was about funding the trading nation that we are (once were, if you disagree), this meant a system of fairly quick returns on investments. That is the culture here (i'm being broad with this).
German investments for Govt/bank funding has it historical base in rebuilding after the war. Long term low interest loans from private and state funded national and regional banks. This was to get manufacturing restarted with investment in factories and the damaged production machinery. Given the need to make things happen and who was next door and recent history(then), the politic's of the left and right were very low down the list of what was important with the main stream government. State or private you could all get support.

For stupid reasons manufacturing has been looked at as dead end and not the place to invest money or a career, even by the off spring of the founders of companies (that funded their education). Germany is different, manufacturers are important, engineers qualified and respected. I'd like to see a similar attitude in the UK, I'm not holding my breath.

When you have a 98% marginal tax rate on investment income, as the UK did, there wasn't a huge incentive for private capital to invest in the UK.

Musings that may be relevant. They are from memory so may not be entirely accurate:

The profit in manufacturing doesn’t come from making widgets. It comes from having the idea and licensing someone else to make the widgets. This is the model that a lot of UK businesses try to follow.

Dyson employs more people in the UK now its manufacturing is abroad than it did when the stuff was made here.

Some in the automotive industry believe the world only needs about 5 car manufacturing plants. The UK automotive industry is extremely competitive. It now exports cars to Japan.

One of the major costs in manufactured goods now is transport of the finished item. Although significant, wage differences are becoming less so. If transport costs continue to rise there may be a shift back to making more stuff locally. (This is what the brewing industry has always done, as their product is mainly water).

I’m told that British trained mining engineers are recognised as among the best in the world. They just don’t do much mining in the UK any more.

and when Germanies economic miracle that everyone is lamenting over as why we arent like them is built on 30% of the workforce on less than the OECD poverty level then it starts to explain a lot, that and that the Germans are using the Euro to devalue their products abroad helps again explain their exports.
So the Uk isnt as bad as you might imagine when it comes to manufacturing and work.
and when you compare to places like Spain whrere I am with 25% unemployment and no talk of an economic up turn, with british management held in the highest regard for the sector I'm in then were a pretty brilliant country that is doing pretty well in the world.

It comes from having the idea and licensing someone else to make the widgets

Would the mining industry still be going in 2013 if M. Thatcher hadn't stopped it all ?

Mines closed during Harold Wilsons' premiership - 212
Mines closed during Margaret Thatcher's premiership - 25

So in answer to your question, I doubt it. Seeing as the damage had already been done, annd as the great lady herself said, there's no point in supporting failing business.

Would manufacturing still be active in 2013?

Exqueeze me? Baking powder?

Toyota, Nissan, JCB, Airbus, Rolls Royce, Bentley, Aston-Martin, Jaguar-Land Rover, BAE Systems.

Shall I go on? OK then - Vosper-Thorneycroft, Handley-Paige, Bombardier, Honda, Outo-Kumpu, Glaxo-Smith-Klein, Procter & Gamble, Akzo-Nobel.

Not to mention the thousands of sub-contractors that these companies use.

Granted, they aren't all British companies, but they've had the good sense to invest in the UK. No manufacturing in Britain? Pull the other one...

Why have Honda, Nissan, BMW etc all invested in UK car plants?

Massive government subsidies and tax breaks.

Next question, please.

Mines closed during Harold Wilsons' premiership - 212
Mines closed during Margaret Thatcher's premiership - 25

Again- can we post sources of info. Thats a bloody bit of info but we need to know where the data came from. If it was a Toryblogsite for instance created in someones bedroom or the Economist.

When figures etc are publishes on any argument I always want to know their source. 🙂

I'd like to see the source for that too. But also, I'd like to see it beefed up with some figures on productivity and job losses.

Massive government subsidies and tax breaks.
which dosent happen in the rest of the world?
lets hope the government can do more with tax breaks etc to bring in more investment.

as the Germans allow most of their workforce to work for peanuts. and the euro to subsidise their exports.

[quote=dannyh said]Why have Honda, Nissan, BMW etc all invested in UK car plants?
Massive government subsidies and tax breaks.
Next question, please.

OK, how many people in the UK have jobs due to those companies choosing to manufacture in UK ?

No manufacturing in Britain?

I don't think anybody said that. We can do better, particularly in the areas of the country that were wrecked in the 80's.

So the Uk isnt as bad as you might imagine when it comes to manufacturing and work.

Not bad, could be, should be better.

and when you compare to places like Spain whrere I am with 25% unemployment and no talk of an economic up turn, with british management held in the highest regard for the sector I'm in then were a pretty brilliant country that is doing pretty well in the world.

They are never going to get out of trouble if they think like that.

built on 30% of the workforce on less than the OECD poverty level

Wow - that's disabused me of my preconceptions! How does that compare to UK?
Care to share the source???

A quick google suggests US has the fourth highest OECD poverty rate, after Mexico (1), Israel (2)!, Chile (3), and followed by Turkey (5)!!!

If mining was still going.. it would be owned by Chinese investment, employing a chinese workforce and exporting all of the coal over to China.
And if the mine wasn't yeilding enough, China would probably be suing the government for poor performance of their investment.

Likely to actually happen in Canada
Canada-China FIPA
Tumbler Ridge Mine
Enbridge Pipeline

OK, how many people in the UK have jobs due to those companies choosing to manufacture in UK ?

If your point is to demonstrate that there are manufacturing jobs in the UK, no one is denying that, so you need to stop deflecting away from the issue that under Thatcher, investment in this sector of the economy dropped dramatically, as the ideology for the time was to "invest" in other sectors.

as the Germans allow most of their workforce to work for peanuts. and the euro to subsidise their exports.

Good for them I think. Anyone any comparisons for the cost of living for Germany compared to the UK? I think I know the answer.

Mines closed during Margaret Thatcher's premiership - 25

I could probably rustle up 25 names just from South Wales!
Granted, they might span the full period of the Tory government, but even so, 25 sounds like a huge under estimate

if they'd had half an eye on the middle to long term, but no, they went for EVERYTHING NOW, or else.

You could also attribute that to shareholders and bankers could you not?
Perhaps it's human nature that's part of the problem?

rkk01 - reported by BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22080862

So not a fact but a claim.

If your point is to demonstrate that there are manufacturing jobs in the UK, no one is denying that, so you need to stop deflecting away from the issue that under Thatcher, investment in this sector of the economy dropped dramatically, as the ideology for the time was to "invest" in other sectors.

Thanks for clarifying the questions we're allowed to ask 🙂

Still interested in these German low wage economy stats...

As I stated, a quick search suggests that average monthly salaries in Germany are higher than the UK - and the germans reportedly dont have the hyper-high end executive pay that we do to skew the average