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I do not.
Then please extend the same curtesy to those folks who may argue with you...
public opinion has shifted to be massively in favour of a real rapprochement
The latest Deltapoll for the Mail on Sunday Is more complex (obviously) that the headline numbers, broken down generationally it's clear that Gen Z (Edit,apology) and Millennials are overwhelmingly in favour of re-joining, it becomes less clear at Gen X (39% stay out 45% rejoin) and Baby Boomers (52% stay out, and 36% rejoin) . The problem here of course is that Gen Z and millennials don't vote in anything like the numbers that Gen X and Baby Boomers do, so even if you had a second referendum toady, I don't think you could claim 100% sure we'd be back in.
Some people do, I could go down to my waiting room right now, and I could find just as many folks who’ll tell me it’s had precisely zero effect on their lives that they can measure.
That they are aware of.
See the many links to research showing a set of interrelated and growing negatives of Brexit.
because of the way this country treats public referendum
Almost. It's because of the way this country has been trained to treat a public referendum.
It's been a barrel of porkies from the outset and that didn't stop after the vote. People have been convinced that anything other than a one-way brexit would be an assault on democracy (as demonstrated by the poster I was replying to in the post you just replied to) when in fact it's the opposite. As you say,
Opinions change in a snap
and a democracy which wilfully refuses to acknowledge that is not a democracy.
please extend the same curtesy
Did you mean cute?
quite frankly he’s far too many larger fires that need tackling before he starts to poke the still burning embers…
This. Starmer partly but not entirely due to his own fault is about as popular as Jimmy Savile at a school disco and he surely knows this. He won an election largely because he didn't wear a blue rosette and, again, he must be aware of this too. Whilst it is of course all relative, you don't get to be the head of a major political party by being daft.
He needs some quick wins for popular ideas to get the public back onside before even thinking about poking the sleeping bear that is brexit. It would surprise me greatly if it's even mentioned before the next change in what we increasingly inaccurately call leadership.
Almost. It’s because of the way this country has been trained to treat a public referendum.
Or more accurately still, how everyone has agreed to treat this public referendum (in order not to have another 5 years of parliament discussing nothing else to the determent of everything else). In theory, we could have another at any point, For Starmer it's still a risk. He's still wildly unpopular, and I don't think him suggesting we hold another referendum on this subject will make any difference to that popularity.
and a democracy which wilfully refuses to acknowledge that is not a democracy.
On so many levels the decision to hold the referendum in the first place was a monumentally wilfully stupid idea, so politicians doing nothing right now about the fact that a [depending on who you ask] larger constituency want back in that voted to come out eight years ago is hardly a low point in a history of unaccountability.
and I don’t think him suggesting we hold another referendum on this subject will make any difference to that popularity.
Given that the vast majority want closer relations with the EU and given the only way this can happen is with the 4 freedoms then I very much doubt this if it was properly explained. I believe that a some of the movement away from labour is folk that like many on here thought he would actually do something to get closer to the EU and are disgusted by his actions towards the EU
Also given that our economy is being badly damaged by this and that getting back into the SM and CU would be an immediate economic boost its stupi8d to keep on with his hard brexit position.
Its going to be a process and it will take a while but its high time he started. Erasmus and the youth mobility scheme would be a good starting point as would Stopping divergence, finally implementing the withdrawal agreement and then looking to reduce customs barriers
just wit until import controls that we are legally required to do start. Its going to be a complete shitshow. Shortage of fruit and veg will certainly be felt.
He has 4.5 years until the next election. rapprochement with the EU would give huge positive effects before then
On so many levels the decision to hold the referendum in the first place was a monumentally wilfully stupid idea, so politicians doing nothing right now about the fact that a [depending on who you ask] larger constituency want back in that voted to come out eight years ago is hardly a low point in a history of unaccountability.
Absolutely.
Given that the vast majority want
Again, unless you've got stats to back this up and I haven't checked for a while now, the phrase you're looking for here is "small majority." Which is the problem.
Its going to be a complete shitshow.
As much as it pains me to say it, "good."
It will have to be. The "we won you lost" mentality will only end when the winners realise that we all win or lose together. This country needs a healthy dose of "oh shit" before it will collectively change its mind in any sort of meaningful fashion and you can bet one of your lesser-used internal organs that when it happens there will be so much spin from the usual suspects that it'll be snowing in July.
Given that the vast majority want closer relations with the EU
This isn't really true. It's true to say that according the latest polling I can find ( Delta-poll end of year for the Mail on Sunday) overall polling suggests that it's about 36% to 48% to stay out/rejoin*, but broken down to party support that changes to 69% to 19% for Reform voters, 59% to 30% for Conservative voters and 23% to 65% for Labour voters. Broken down generationally it swings from from strongly rejoin - Gen Z and Millennials, weakly rejoin Gen X and stay out - Baby Boomers. So that "vast majority" translated to voting; mostly younger, who largely vote (if at all) Labour already.
That's not necessarily a winning cohort.
*Edit, I've just realised that adding the "don't knows" to that makes it 52% to 48%, I'm pretty sure I recognise those numbers from somewhere...If only I could put my finger on it.
The blame lies straight at the feet of the Tory Party, do not ever let them forget
Of course it does, but that doesn't mean Corbyn couldn't have done more to stop them
I voted for pretty much the only mainstream Party to directly oppose Brexit in 2019 – did you?
I voted for the party most likely to ensure that we didn't get a Tory in the constituency where I voted
Seems like this thread has been hijacked, so here is a benefit of Brexit; Stamps in my passport.
I travel a fair bit for work and miss browsing the stamps and reminiscing. That came in handy today as I had no phone signal in the airport so I spent some time flicking through my passport and thinking about the places I had visited whilst waiting in the Q for the 'non EU' passport holders* so that's nice.
* Which always seems longer/slower than the EU one, sometimes significantly so.
The blame lies straight at the feet of the Tory Party, do not ever let them forget
Of course it does, but that doesn’t mean Corbyn couldn’t have done more to stop them
Corbyn is a brexiteer - He's always been anti- EU, he likes 'socialism' but not when he doesn't get to call the shots, so not socialist at all - he 3 line whipped his MP's to vote through the triggering of article 50, for gods sake.
Different motivation and ideology to the far right, but same goal, He's just as complicit in this mess as Farage and Rees Mogg.
Given that the vast majority want closer relations with the EU
This isn’t really true. It’s true to say that according the latest polling I can find (Delta-poll end of year for the Mail on Sunday)
Something about that poll seems like it might be slightly skewed, not sure what it might be…
And that’s why Starmer’s pernicious lies are such a problem. He agrees with Farage on the principle of a hard Brexit being a good idea if only it’s done properly. He promises unicorns.
Those charts above don't show that about 15% of leave voters have died since the referendum, compared with 8% of remain voters
Something about that poll seems like it might be slightly skewed, not sure what it might be…
How the Mail on Sunday interpreted the polling might be one for debate, fo'shure, Delta-poll themselves are as good as most other pollsters AFAIK, there's a link to that poll on the previous page if you want to have a look at it.
We cannot have a significantly closer relationsip without the 4 freedom. Its Starmers position but its impossible
That's wrong. The EU have offered the UK 'associate membership' with comes with significant trading advantages, but much more limited requirements. (ECJ, and contributions to the budget)
Seems like this thread has been hijacked, so here is a benefit of Brexit; Stamps in my passport.
I remember having to buy a new passport before it expired because it was full too, winding back the clock of progress, yet again...
whilst waiting in the Q for the ‘non EU’ passport holders* so that’s nice.
* Which always seems longer/slower than the EU one, sometimes significantly so.
I wonder why it's slower.....
Incidentally, if you are a charcutiere, you might be doing better....
Did have some of the Curing Rebels gear just before Xmas - was v lovely, if v expensive
But that's a sh1t lot of salami to make up a £40Bn gap each year.
So the thread could redraft its terms of engagement, no point looking for benefits and arguing about Corbyn. That doesn't change anything.
How can we push for that closer engagement w EU, that SM/CU membership....that's a much better use of our energies
That’s wrong. The EU have offered the UK ‘associate membership’ with comes with significant trading advantages, but much more limited requirements. (ECJ, and contributions to the budget)
No, associate membership means single market (but without any say over the rules). So 4 freedoms just as tj said. It's completely ruled out by Starmer's red lines.
Seems like this thread has been hijacked, so here is a benefit of Brexit; Stamps in my passport.
Boosting the sales of physical stamps and ink in countries other than the UK!
And I'll bet we source our stamps and ink from the EU too.
Soz - being daft because nearly 9 years in and there are basically no benefits, only problems - and still this is treated by politicians as some kind of holy cow.
Hahaha.
Those charts above don’t show that about 15% of leave voters have died since the referendum, compared with 8% of remain voters
I think it’s why no rejoining of the sm &b cu is not being suggested as in the current climate it would be political suicide, as the vote changes closer to rejoin as natural wastage takes out the people it’s a more likely that will possible appear on the table when it actually has a chance 🙁
That YouGov poll would be more meaningful if follow-up questions were:
- What is the EU?
- What is the Customs Union?
- What is the Single Market?
and vaguely correct answers were then tallied against previous responses. If I were a betting man I'd wager the respondents who answered all three correctly would be in single digits of a percent and those who could answer just one would be fewer than half.
Independence for Scotland.
We get it and then when rUK sees how we prosper they follw us back in
You know when the UK left the EU squealing "they need us more than we need them" but what actually happened was that the EU27 collectively went "thank **** for that"?
🙂
Independence for Scotland.
We get it and then when rUK sees how we prosper they follw us back in
Broadly supportive of Scottish independence, but i was hoping for something a little nearer term for all the UK. I am still sure that we can push the rejoin agenda as the country sinks further behind other developed economies and everyone wants better standard of living
The “we won you lost” mentality will only end when the winners realise that we all win or lose together. This country needs a healthy dose of “oh shit” before it will collectively change its mind in any sort of meaningful fashion
^ so much this at the moment. We are in the thick of brexiteers sticking to the message and refusing to see the wood for the trees.
Sadly, we are years off any change and things will get more painful before they get better.
I am of the view we need some politicians to start speaking up on this and not shy away - but perhaps they are reading the audience and waiting a bit longer before picking up the argument with the committed brexiteers...
Those charts above don’t show that about 15% of leave voters have died since the referendum, compared with 8% of remain voters
Well, indeed.. The figures today would be even more in favour, if it was put to another referendum, IMO.
I'dcall it a dead cert to get back in..
The polar opposite of political suicide.
Of course the UK media, the right wingers, the stupid and the racist would kick up a huge and very loud fuss, but why not put the question back to the people?
Is that not what democracy is? No decisions are final.. This isn't a quiz show.
Let the people decide if we are still on track as a country.
It would be a total baller move for Starmer to do that.. But I don't think he has the stones for it.
Either that or Starmer is secretly happy with the current situation and that's the reason for his inaction.
Starmer wants whatever gives him the best chance of power, regardless of the consequences for the country.
Remove Farage and what's left for leave? What happened to UKIP Brexit party, etc. the whole thing is a one man band. Odd that such a thing is so linked to one person, but remove Farage and much of Brexit will collapse.
Wonder what all the new retired people are thinking , long summer holidays abroad. Then it's no chance of a long winter holiday in the Costas.
It would be a total baller move for Starmer to do that.. But I don’t think he has the stones for it.
Nails it.
Nails it.
I know, right?..he has a huge majority in the commons..he can push it through if he wants, but it doesn't seem to be on his agenda.
And it would elevate Starmer from 'boring centrist' status, to "Epic Legend" status, even if it goes pear shaped...
Interesting.. I spend a lot of time in Spain as I inherited property but being from the uk it's already difficult.
I rent the place out over summer so I guess I'm one of the 'bad guys' but it actually makes no profit, only just enough to pay for it's own upkeep* as I do it properly.
I have a tourist licence, I do it through a local spanish estate agency, pay them (15%) comission and pay local and national taxes - I pay 24% to the Spanish government on rental income, and that's all off the top line, so I'm 40% down before I've started, that's before upkeep/maintenence, local council tax, insurance, garbage collection, insane utility bills as tourists seemingly have the aircon on full blast 24/7 etc, etc.
*And the maintenence is never ending.. just last year i've had to replace one of the split aircon units for 700 euros, a water heater for about 300, and one of the garden walls fell over in a storm that the spanish insurance company just wouldn't cover for 'reasons'.... so I'm actually running at a large loss this financial year, it will take about 3 years to revover that loss, assuming I don't get any more big bills thrown at me.
There's no way you could make it work if you had a mortgage to pay against the property, as a UK/3rd world citizen you'd be making unsustainable losses, absolutley no question.
Interestingly where I am is on the coast, but not the usual Brit enclaves, it's a real mix of nationalities and very much an off the beaten track tourist destination...
It's very popular with Spanish tourists who live inland for holidaying by the sea, and other EU nationals, Dutch, Belgian, German, Scandis, you name it.
Probably half my 'guests' or more, are Spanish, the other half, are all sorts, throw a dart at a map of Europe and see where it lands.
So looking at it as objectivley as I can, from my biased perspective - this might clamp down on the dodgy Brits who rent via air B&B or privately and don't pay any tax, which is a good thing.
But it's not going to help the Spanish housing issue for locals...because, belive it or not, if we put our 'british exceptionalism' aside, outside of hell holes like benedorm etc, brits don't actually make up a huge percantage of 'landlords' - far from it.. it's mostly wealthy Spaniards, or other EU nationals.
Starmer wants whatever gives him the best chance of power, regardless of the consequences for the country.
Bet you voted for Johnson in 2019...
I know, right?..he has a huge majority in the commons..he can push it through if he wants, but it doesn’t seem to be on his agenda.
Because we've left FFS; and any public statement made by UK Representatives just means a poorer outcome (for the UK) from any negotiations - just like with ANY negotiation.
No, associate membership means single market (but without any say over the rules). So 4 freedoms just as tj said
Without admittedly looking that hard, I cannot find anywhere that says that associate membership being offered to the UK has to accept the 4 freedoms. Can you point me in the direction of an article or source?
Spain is planning to impose a tax of up to 100% on the value of properties bought by non-residents from countries outside the EU, such as the UK
I wish we'd done something like that about 15 years ago. Protectionism, I know... but housing needs to be shifted back to being homes first, investments second... not the other way around.
it’s mostly wealthy Spaniards, or other EU nationals
After Spaniards, it's UK nationals, by quite some margin. Russia and China also in the mix. Moroccans as well, but that's no surprise, as they're right next door.