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Its a point of EU law.
The UK doesn't care about that. We left, remember? And they need us more than we need them.
“There’s a huge job to get on with now, without a distracting argument about something that isn’t happening for a long, long time”
Which is another one of Starmers falsehoods that you have accepted.
Above you talk about convergance as something that is happening. Its not and cannot
Its not and cannot
Plenty of convergence doesn’t require the EU to do anything, just for us to adopt their regulations and standards as they change. Just get on and quietly do this, rather than diverging. That is all that can be done at this point to enable anything closer in future. The argument about actually joining the Single Market or Customs Union is for so far down the road as to be pointless right now… just get on with the slow slog ahead.
And have this recognised by the EU
convergence will have zero effect on the non tarriff barriers. Only a renegotiation will and that cannot even start until we have finished implementing the WA
That Starmer has no ability to move public opinion but Farage can reverse the direction of movement immediately and dramatically?
Pretty much. Brexit was in the main, a vote against the elite Establishment. It was a poke in the eye to mainstream politicians from voters who felt as if they'd been ignored. Starmer's Labour party (the left in general these days) are the party of both the establishment, and of authorities, and the New Age-QAnon overlap, cultural wars, the Covid-era migration of formerly left-wing skeptics of Big Pharma onto right-wing politics and platforms, all the way through to doubts about the European establishment are now coded as right-wing, Trumpy, Farage and populist. What Farage thinks about the EU will define where our involvement goes in at least the next five years, certainly not what Starmer thinks - despite your claims of gaslighting, I'd bet money if you conducted a poll right now in any UK high street , most people would say that Starmer is a remainer who wants back in.
I’d bet money if you conducted a poll right now in any UK high street , most people would say that Starmer is a remainer who wants back in.
correct IMO - and so are the vast majority of the population.
What a position of despair. So we can do nothing, the majority view counts for nothing, the labour party must dance to Farages tune"
None of this is true. That is Starmers illogical position and far too many of you accept it.
With that - I am out
There's so much going on now..
EU convergence aside I think the next big test of Starmers mettle will be if he can legislate to prevent Musk giving farage the rumored 100 million donation. It's absolute pocket change for Musk to buy influence in another country.
Yes I realise there are already laws in place for foreign donors, but Musk can easily just bypass that by funneling donations through a UK subsidiary company he owns.
Dark times indeed.
What a position of despair. So we can do nothing, the majority view counts for nothing, the labour party must dance to Farages tune”
Not just Labour, but all the mainstream parties. He is; like it or not the voice for as many as 1 in 6 voters. I could go downstairs to my patient waiting room and hear any umber of Farage adjacent opinions from everyone from new mums to old giffers who should know better. It is as you point out; totally idiotic, but here we all are.
Populism, who knew it would be so...er...popular?
1 in 6 is a small minority. “Democracy”, remember?
And they need us more than we need them.
I would be grateful if someone could explain to those (or maybe it's just me) who are behind the curve on the basis for this.
Cheers
And they need us more than we need them
I supsect ...
I would be grateful if someone could explain to those (or maybe it’s just me)
Not just you, 51% of the UK public as demonstrated in the Brexit vote are objectivley stupid and/or selfish.
I would be grateful if someone could explain to those (or maybe it’s just me) who are behind the curve on the basis for this.
Cheers
I read it as sarcasm in response to my post. I said some of what Starmer is saying he is going to do in improving relations with the EU is impossible due to it being incompatible with EU law.
IN response to the objections to my use of the term "gaslighting" I apologise if this has upset anyone. change it to:
Starmer has created a demonstrably false narrative around brexit and many folk have bought into this false narrative
I don't think anyone with any modicum of inteligence is singing the praises of Starmer...we are only just slightly, relieved that the govenment is not Tory/reform.
It's a very low bar, but that's where we are. 🙁
And they need us more than we need them
I read it as sarcasm in response to my post
Nope, on the basis, or my assumption, it was meant as ... they (the EU) need us (GB) more than we need them, I was simply asking the question, what is out there that backs this up.
I sort of get the comment that some of the 52% may have thought that way.
Brexit was in the main, a vote against
Brexit never had a main anything. It was sold as a hundred different things to whomever a particular narrative most appealed. It was a masterclass in guerilla marketing.
Nope, on the basis, or my assumption, it was meant as … they (the EU) need us (GB) more than we need them, I was simply asking the question, what is out there that backs this up.
Nothing backs it up, as TJ says. It was something that was trotted out at the time and it was a bare-faced lie.
I don't recall reading anything that supported that statement either. I just thought I had missed something.
And we still have not enacted the incoming border checks legally required for which the UK is being taken to court and which will damage trade further with huge costs
While Starmer still lies about "closer ties" The EU have made it clear that the withdrawal agreement will not be renegotiated at all and that nothing of substance will be discussed while we are in breach of the WA
No significantly closer ties are possible with Starmers stance
It would also not have been possible to cut the infamous “tampon tax” under EU membership – since then, the EU has followed suit by allowing member states to exempt VAT on sanitary products.
I think this was the only tangible Brexit benefit and even it only lasted for a short while as the EU allowed it.
Blaming Starmer for not trying to overturn and weaken a democratic vote that happened in 2016 is pretty unfair. He’d have the full force of the right gunning for him. The right wing media, Musk and Farage’s army of zombies.
Why didn’t the labour leader who was in tenue between 2015-2020 try to persuade the red wall that Brexit was a lie and would be against their interests. That’s right he was a Brexiteer himself. And had little support outside the metropolitan elite.
Brexit never had a main anything. It was sold as a hundred different things to whomever a particular narrative most appealed. It was a masterclass in guerilla marketing.
Here’s 101 pages of the vote leave adverts pick the one that’s targeted at you 🙂
vote leave adverts as provided to the commons committee
We shouldn’t forget how easy and cheap this is to do, as now human rights are the biggest problem now 🙁
Blaming Starmer for not trying to overturn and weaken a democratic vote that happened in 2016 is pretty unfair. He’d have the full force of the right gunning for him.
"The Right" loves using this sort of language and "The Left" needs to stop repeating it.
Whether the referendum was actually democratic rather than merely claimed to be so after the event in order to defend it is debatable. Either way however, there is no "overturning" to be had, the Tories got brexit done remember. The 2024 General Election didn't overturn the 2019 one nor did it weaken it, rather it was a snapshot of public opinion at a point in time. We had three GEs in four years thanks to tory squabbling, the idea that the referendum is somehow sacrosanct is absurd.
2016 is past history, done, they won we lost shut up and get over it two world wars and one world cup doo dah.
Why didn’t the labour leader who was in tenue between 2015-2020 try to persuade the red wall that Brexit was a lie and would be against their interests.
Because when your enemies are eating themselves, the best thing to do is let them get on with it?
the Tories got brexit done remember
Only its still not over yet! We haven't even finished leaving, the vast majority want back in, until we are back in we cannot reverse the ongoing damage.
Why didn’t the labour leader who was in tenue between 2015-2020 try to persuade the red wall that Brexit was a lie and would be against their interests.
He did in reality but not according to the press. He spoke in favour of remain at more public meetings than anyone else. But all that was reported was the attacks on him from within his own party.
Spain Golden Visa Program only until April 3, 2025. The decision to end the program was published in Spain's Official State Gazette (BOE) on January 3, 2025, and will take effect three months after its publication
Spain to officialy end it’s golden visa program
Yea.. It's kind of understandable especially on the coast or major tourist areas...
Summer houses owned by foreigners left empty 80% of the time driving up property prices for locals trying to get on the housing ladder.. Spain has its own housing crisis and not too dissimilar to the UK where you get (in Manchester for example) loads of huge residential blocks all owned by foreign investment companies... You can rent a nice flat but even if you could potentially afford it, they are not for sale.
the idea that the referendum is somehow sacrosanct is absurd.
I think most folks have realised what a terrible shit show it is, I think most serious politicians realise what a terrible shit show it is but because of the way this country treats public referendum the result is too all intents and purposes 'it' . If this had happened within Parliament, I'd agree with you, but it didn't. Asking people again because either 1. politicians are too frit to sort it out, or 2. the notion/idea that one part of the country wants to ask the other part of the country if it would like another 'go' at the question because it didn't get it right the first time, is just how it's going to go, until it will be resolved by a party gaining power off the back of campaigning to re-join. I don't think it's there quite yet.
I think most serious politicians realise what a terrible shit show it is but because of the way this country treats public referendum the result is too all intents and purposes ‘it’ .
So why are the labour party still pursuing the hardest of hard brexits and insultingly rebuffing olive branches from the EU?
We actually have very little precedent about referenda
I've said it from day 1 - Brexshit was always harder on those under 30 in the UK. They have lost so much more than many of the elderly Breixiteers even understand. I find it heartbreaking, and would happily support a new Erasmus.
(And remember, Erasmus was so, so much more than just student exchanges. It was the gateway to European mobility, the professional exchange platform in education, youth and research, the opportunity for all young people to meet the neighbours and gain perspectives beyond what our UK politicians and society told them, and more.
But for Breixiteers it represented the huge soft power that Europe has as a group of nations collaborating together has.)
Erasmus was so, so much more than just student exchanges. It was the gateway to European mobility, the professional exchange platform in education, youth and research, the opportunity for all young people to meet the neighbours and gain perspectives beyond what our UK politicians and society told them, and more.
Hence why it was instinctively hated by Little Englanders of low intelligence.
If this had happened within Parliament, I’d agree with you, but it didn’t
This. When the original Bill for the referendum was introduced to Parliament, the information paper for MPs explicitly pointed out that a UK referendum cannot be binding on Parliament. The expectation was that Parliament would examine the result and decide the next step. After the referendum, despite it being a close vote (and Farage having said that if it was that close, the other way, he's expect it to be looked at again) Parliament never seriously thought about it and justified their laxity by "It's the will of the people" and because the previous PM had made a personal statement saying it would be implemented. And it was at that point that the Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition failed in his duty.
So why are the labour party still pursuing the hardest of hard brexits and insultingly rebuffing olive branches from the EU?
If you hadn't noticed Starmer isn't that popular right now, and the voters he relied on aren't keen enough on the EU still and he hasn't been given a mandate to take us closer... because for better or worse, much of politics is about "the feels". Opinions change in a snap; to take a very famous example; look at appeasement in 1939, it was the overwhelming popular public sentiment, right up until the point that more or less overnight, it suddenly wasn't any more. Brexit and the fallout will take a similar path I reckon, folks are more or less OK with it, it doesn't impact them on a day to day basis (that they can feel), and then suddenly it does in a way that unexpected or unwelcome, and bingo, whoever rides that wave will get the mandate, until that point we're on the shit-show express, stopping at Blue-passport, Independence and [Polish] Spitfires.
And it was at that point that the Leader of Her Majesty’s Opposition failed in his duty.
Do you also blame Tony Blair for the previous Tory administrations failure to manage "the Boats" too?
The blame lies straight at the feet of the Tory Party, do not ever let them forget - when I was approached in July by our prospective Tory MP I reminded him of his and his Party's actions, told him "I would never forgive him & his Party ****ing up the country and its prospects".
I voted for pretty much the only mainstream Party to directly oppose Brexit in 2019 - did you?
And for the likes of TJ; I keep reminding you, we left, that's it - nothing Starmer can do about it, at least not in this Parliament and quite frankly he's far too many larger fires that need tackling before he starts to poke the still burning embers...
And for the likes of TJ; I keep reminding you, we left, that’s it – nothing Starmer can do about it, at least not in this Parliament and quite frankly he’s far too many larger fires that need tackling before he starts to poke the still burning embers…
As as I keep on reminding you - we have not finished leaving yet, there is plenty Starmer could do to improve relations like adopting Erasmus of the youth mobility scheme, those larger fires cannot be put out while we have ever increasing barriers to trade and ever worsening relations with the EU
Brexit and the fallout will take a similar path I reckon, folks are more or less OK with it, it doesn’t impact them on a day to day basis (that they can feel),
this is simply incorrect. Folk feel it every day, public opinion has shifted to be massively in favour of a real rapprochement and Starmer is not even following public opinion let alone trying to lead. a majority of brexit voters would now accept the 4 freedoms! a huge majority across the UK
I remember all you unquestioning labour supporters on here before the election sayinjg - "he has to pretend to be a brexiteer now but he will move us towards the EU once in power" Instead he is actively making things worse by insulting the EU folk who want a rapprochement
I suspect a lot of folk thought that and his actions since getting into power about the EU have turned a lot of these folk off - certainly up here
Folk feel it every day,
Some people do, I could go down to my waiting room right now, and I could find just as many folks who'll tell me it's had precisely zero effect on their lives that they can measure.
Instead he is actively making things worse by insulting the EU folk who want a rapprochement
Starmer has zero mandate to take us closer to the EU, and while he could in theory, and it would improve the economic outlook. For Starmer personally it would be an incredibly risky strategy. He's not at all popular both with the right and left, and while he may be pissing off the folks who want a rapprochement with the EU they're also not the folks who'll be vocal about "Starmer Rejecting the Will of the People" or "Westminster elites stealing your Brexit" or any number of other absurd and unhinged headlines spread over all the right leaning newspapers that'll make him even more unpopular, which in turn will prompt the further left to point out how unpopular Starmer is...It's literally a no win scenario.
I remember all you unquestioning labour supporters
There's very few folks on this forum who are 'unquestioning' There are on the other hand folks who'll you'll find to argue with your own 'automatic rejection' of mainstream Labour , those are not the same thing.
I think most serious politicians realise what a terrible shit show it is
I think this is a severe case of "no true scotsman" fallacy.
How many politicians have actually stated that it's a terrible shitshow (or words to that effect), and of those who have not, which ones do you think are "serious" (albeit cowardly/dishonest) and which ones have actually drunk the kool-aid and believe it's a good thing?
Furthermore, of those who think it's a terrible shitshow, how many of them think that's because it was a terrible idea full stop, and how many because it wasn't done right?
’ There are on the other hand folks who’ll you’ll find to argue with your own ‘automatic rejection’ of mainstream Labour ,
I do not. I praised Starmer yesterday. I look at each issue
There’s very few folks on this forum who are ‘unquestioning’
Aye right.