Forum menu
Around 1 in every 6 voters who voted back in July voted for Reform.
Thank **** for first past the post, eh?
Theres also this... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-elon-musk-trump-reform-b2665769.html
The future is grim.
Thank **** for first past the post, eh?
PR has long been a way-in for extremists.
PR has long been a way-in for extremists.
No its not and FPTP has given us numerous hard right tory governments on a minority of the vote
Around 1 in every 6 voters who voted back in July voted for Reform.
That's probably conservative (small 'c') numbers for the amount of people who voted for reform (small 'r') back in 2016.
People are, and rightly so, mostly pissed off. But pointing at a dinghy and screaming "it's all their fault!!" does no-one any favours, it's just misdirection.
We have just lost an extremist government, one that damaged the country and killed thousands.
They were only there thanks to FPtP
So folk on here who favour PR would be OK to currently have 90-odd Reform MPs in parliament?
You're off your ****ing rockers.
Without PR the next Conform government will be in power for another 20 stretch.
We need to be able to vote FOR not AGAINST.
So folk on here who favour PR would be OK to currently have 90-odd Reform MPs in parliament?
You’re off your **** rockers.
And this right here is the problem. Because as unpalatable as it may be the correct answer is yes. Country > people > individual. Valuing what I want over what the people want is the domain of the Far Right.
Here's a question I genuinely don't know the answer to, but in terms of enacting policy, is a single party government better in the sense that in theory, they should be able to guide in the country in their direction and not fracture their goals to accommodate the other parties in a coalition, and end up with a big lump of nothingness?
I completely see the arguments for PR, and I also known there's been successful coalitions, but then also see coalitions made of 4+ parties having to play favours and promises to get anything passed?
And this right here is the problem. Because as unpalatable as it may be the correct answer is yes. Country > people > individual. Valuing what I want over what the people want is the domain of the Far Right.
I'm sure there were lots of folks saying that in early 1930s Germany too. I'm not sure the UK in the 2020s has a trustworthy enough electorate, I'm afraid.
I’m sure there were lots of folks saying that in early 1930s Germany too. I’m not sure the UK in the 2020s has a trustworthy enough electorate, I’m afraid.
I don't doubt any of that. But espousing a form of politics which is little more than "getting what I want" is an equally dangerous route.
but then also see coalitions made of 4+ parties having to play favours and promises to get anything passed?
Which can, of course, also be true of the FPTP system when you have several parties combined into one. A good example would be the Biden years where a couple of more right wing democrats were effectively able to block most useful legislation.
Or closer to home we have the recent tory years.
I’m sure there were lots of folks saying that in early 1930s Germany too.
Not the best example, I am afraid, given chances are even with FPTP it would have ended up being a coalition and then ending up with the same result. Probably a better lesson to learn is why it is a bad idea to pander to the hard right. The DVP are a good lesson for the tories.
So folk on here who favour PR would be OK to currently have 90-odd Reform MPs in parliament?
Absolutely, and why would any one who supports democracy not.
Still a minority, and stops folk commenting the usual bollox about "no one represents MY views".
So folk on here who favour PR would be OK to currently have 90-odd Reform MPs in parliament?
Yes - but actually it would not happen. People vote differently under PR when every vote counts
Under PR we would not have had that succession of hard right damaging tory governments - social democracy has a huge inbuilt majority. Its FPTP that has allowed those extreme right wing giovernments
The damage from Brexit to trade links with the EU cost the UK £27bn in the first two years, but the overall impact was more limited than forecasters first estimated, according to the most comprehensive review of the issue since Britain fully left the bloc at the start of 2021.
Researchers based at the London School of Economics found that trade barriers had been a “disaster” for small businesses and had forced thousands to stop trading with EU nations.
And this is before we enact the most damaging barrier raising piece of legislation - which we have delayed for years and are now being sued by the EU for not doing
So folk on here who favour PR would be OK to currently have 90-odd Reform MPs in parliament?
Absolutely. And Labour made to work with other parties to deliver for all voters. Having a big majority based on 1/3 of the vote isn't democratic.
Researchers based at the London School of Economics found that trade barriers had been a “disaster” for small businesses and had forced thousands to stop trading with EU nations.
As was always going to be the case. Large multinational companies can cope, and will take market share from UK SMEs.
Large multinational companies as the name implies are geared up for the various regulations and rules for operating in various markets 🙂
Prior to Brexit any U.K. company could pretty much load stuff onto a lorry or van and send it anywhere in the E.U as simple as if it was a place in the U.K. and the opposite,everything was reciprocal, small companies could just post it out as if it was a U.K. address as it made no difference, they didn’t need an import/export department to handle the different documention/regulations and employee people to do this task.
It’s not a real surprise that having to handle the regulations for each EU country is challenging/uneconomical for companies used to just writing out the postal label.
also see coalitions made of 4+ parties having to play favours and promises to get anything passed?
The current Labour and Tory parties are already coalitions. That's why there are so many factions in each, and also why both parties and their supporters were split by Brexit. A lot of Labour voters are progressives, because social equality, but a lot of them are also socially conservative working class voters who want to be stood up for. In reality they are completely different political alignments but they can't split the party because they will never win, because of FPTP. The arguing still happens, it just happens within the party.
Big test for Starmer hare and I have a nasty feeling its "damned if you do, damned if you don't"
Unionists in NI are objecting to a new EU labelling requirement and calling for the "brake" clause from the Windsor agreement.
Interesting to see once again if his pro EU rhetoric is as previously just empty words and he pisses off the EU further by supporting the unionists of whether he has the strength to tell them to eff off
Of course there is a simple solution - accept the EU labelling across the UK! Not a chance he will do that
The current Labour and Tory parties are already coalitions
Refrom are basically a splinter group from the tories and look how it devastated their vote having the right wing vote split. Look what happened with the SPD - split the labourr vote and gave us tory governments
To all the cheerleaders for PR, I should point out that here in Spain at least it certainly has led to the more extremist parties getting significant political power: the central government has the hard* left in coalition with the centre* left Socialist party, and the hard* right are running a number of the Autonomous Communities (similar to states in the US) in coalition with the centre* right PP.
* your definitions of "hard" and "centre" should be applied here.
There's a lot of political history to unpick in Spain before you can decide whether PR has given more power to, or held back extremist parties in recent times.
Yeah, clearly a completely different country. But blithely stating that no extremist party will ever acheive power under PR is, quite frankly, stupid. PR has a lot going for it, but it's no panacea.
But blithely stating that no extremist party will ever acheive power under PR is, quite frankly, stupid.
Of course it is. Did someone say that? I missed it, sorry.
So unionists in NI and the brexit "brake" which way will Starmer go? Piss off the NI unionists or the EU? I bet he appeases the NI unionists
To all the cheerleaders for PR, I should point out that here in Spain at least it certainly has led to the more extremist parties getting significant political power
But it's giving people what they think they want.
Sure, plenty of people are effing idiots and there is a healthy dose of "be careful what you wish for" going on here, but it's difficult to argue that it's unfair. If 20% of your population are racist nutters, it makes sense to have 20% of your parliament to be made up of racist nutters in order to provide them with representation.
The alternative is to educate the populace at large, and to allocate people into positions of control who are qualified to do the job and have the nation's best interests at heart. Pass the needle and thread, my sides have just split.
I bet he appeases the NI unionists
Given that he's the PM of Britain, who are not a member of the EU, he's unlikely not to support British people in this regard. This is a pretty basic part of his job description really.
Yeah, it’s a bit further up the thread.
Can you provide the exact quote please?
nickc - but in supporting the unionists he would actually make things worse for the people? Its also a good test of whether he genuinely wants a rapprochement with the EU or as I believe its fine words to gaslight labour supporters while his actions are to support brexit and piss off the EU.
Rapprochement with the EU would be overwhelmingly to the benefit of the UK population particularly the NI population
Can you provide the exact quote please?
Sure, although you could have just looked a page back ?
No its not and FPTP has given us numerous hard right tory governments on a minority of the vote
I'll let you see what he's replying to. (And I'm not denying the second part of the comment, just the idea that PR is a sure-fire way to avoid extremist governments. It's not.)
My comment and the context was that someone claimed PR always lets extremists in and the answer I gave was no its not because it isn't. Most of these so called extremist parties are no more so that the tories and a lot less than reform. Not every PR government has extremists in power. However our FPTP does let extremists in. It can be either way but PR does not give rise automatically to extremists getting in. Where are the extrmists in Scotland?
We ended up with a hard right tory party in power on a minority of the vote. could not happen under PR
We ended up with a hard right tory party in power on a minority of the vote. could not happen under PR
Yeah, that's where you're wrong. PR doesn't guarantee that extremist parties don't get into government. What happens is that the Tories win 33% of the vote, Labour 29%, Reform 10%, and the Liberals 8%. (Other parties get the rest.) After negotiations, we end with a government where the Tories hold the PM, Exchequer, and a whole load of other ministries. But to form that government they have to offer Reform the Home Office. So technically they're not the government, but in practice they form a large part of it. And that drags the government to the right.
Yeah, that’s where you’re wrong. PR doesn’t guarantee that extremist parties don’t get into government.
You could just read what all of what TJ wrote eg "It can be either way but PR does not give rise automatically to extremists getting in. ".
So the only person making claims that PR can never lead to extremist parties in government is you. Of course it can as can any political system short of a dictatorship/absolute monarchy which doesnt allow for political parties.
Of course these options have a few downsides.
PR doesn’t guarantee that extremist parties don’t get into government
I never said it did. What I said was that PR does not necessarily lead to extremists in government and we have had an extreme right wing government with FPTP
Mogrim - where are the extremists in Scotland? PR government remember?
Most PR governments end up in social democratic coalitions. Long term stable ones
No worries Mogrim. It happens 🙂
Most PR governments end up in social democratic coalitions
That's a lovely idea, but unfortunatley in practice they can easily tilt to the left or right.