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We could have had a deal like switzerland or Norway - but the tories will not accept the obligations that entails
We can have all the trade deals in the world or still be continuing with the current one and it wouldn't matter. In the short term (next 1-2 years) we're ****ed
At this point would happily take a Switzerland EFTA deal
Tho surely Dougie was trolling with that comment
Yes, Switzerland is not an EU member but shares in the European cooperation is so many ways… as does Norway… just as Vote Leave and Leave.EU campaigns promised we would… so why have their people ruled that out since the referendum?
Ooh, ooh, I know this one....
Is it because they were lying?
As if the average Leave voter gave two hoots about the economy anyway. They stopped paying attention after 'forriners out'.
They stopped paying attention after ‘forriners out’.
my landlord and landlady are wonderful, elderly, compassionate Christians. Welcoming to all nations/races but both very pro-Brexit beacause “we were OK for years before it so why do we need it?”
Bless. They also think Boris is OK. But they sure as **** aren’t racist.
So they are thick brexiters rather than racist ones. I think it's always been acknowledged that both types exist.
Or ignorant. Which I can understand. It's the wilfully ignorant that piss me off.
So they are thick brexiters rather than racist ones. I think it’s always been acknowledged that both types exist.
Three if you include thick and racist as a combined category of its own.
For the first time last week I was really thankful for Brexit. I'm absolutely certain that Britain woould have blocked the EU Covid rescue package of Eurobonds and hand outs from the ECB. As it was Holland made an attempt but is too small a fish, as were the other "frugals", and Poland was easily bribed.
So thank you Brexiters for for saving southern Europe from even worse chaos than it is currently living through.
The ones that piss me off are the ones who can see the problems but are sufficiently selfish that they are prepared to support brexit just because they can, as a sort of act of vicious nihilistic vandalism against others who they believe will suffer worse. It's like they think politics is necessarily a zero-sum gain where making others lose is an automatic win for them. Basically, the thrill of their imaginary "sticking two fingers up to the Germans" _plus_ screwing the ****less poor (it's all their fault they are poor, obviously) makes the whole thing a festival of win, even though they and their own families are paying a price (to a lesser extent) too.
BTW I campaigned (just a little) in the last GE and the amount of bile and hate was just depressing. So many people motivated by what they didn't want, rather than any sort of positive vision.
“sticking two fingers up to the Germans”
After a couple of weeks in Germany listening to Deutschland Funk when on the road and whatever people had to say when staying with them you are absolutely right about "imaginary", captain. Their only concern is that Barnier continues to raise two fingers so there's no deal that's worth anything to the UK.
Oh I know that any pain felt by them will be a pinprick compared to the harm being done to this country.
my landlord and landlady are wonderful, elderly, compassionate Christians. Welcoming to all nations/races but both very pro-Brexit beacause “we were OK for years before it so why do we need it?”
Bless. They also think Boris is OK. But they sure as **** aren’t racist.
chronically misguided then.
edited to make clear what i was responding to.
So thank you Brexiters for for saving southern Europe from even worse chaos than it is currently living through.
Yes, what every person in debt wants is even more debt.
screwing the ****less poor
And yet a great many votes came from less well off people, makes you think eh? Maybe they looked at the EU, thought "what's the point?" and voted leave.
But of course not, they were just thick/didn't understand the implications/ uneducated?
So you've never borrowed money to improve your long term prospects, Dougie? Many people borrow money to buy a car to get to work to earn the money to pay the debt on a house they live in - the alternative is not being able to work or have a roof over your head.
Edit: TF1 has announced that the place you're most likely to catch Covid is at work. If I had it then I caught it from Madame who caught it from her teacher coleague who caught it from... ?
So many people motivated by what they didn’t want, rather than any sort of positive vision.
I said something similar recently and got shouted at for it, but I wholly agree with this. Remain was fuelled by what people like, Leave by what people dislike.
Then we've got people like Dougie playing the "let's all be optimistic" card with no notion of irony. He's the second leaver to say that to me this week.
i'm sorry, but 'debate is good' and all, but TBH i just don't give two ****s any more what leavers want, as clearly what they don't want is more important to them, and they've shown absolutely zero interest in what the other half of the population think. they present no solutions only problems. no brexit is going to be hard enough for the real drivers behind this project. the hapless, the racist, the ignorant, the stupid and the willingly venal have got their way, but they'll never be happy, because their position only reaps more misery.
**** those guys. i've had enough. i've had enough of trying to understand, i've had enough of trying to make things work ( not that any of us plebs even have any influence anyway ), because they sure as shit don't give a **** themselves. i believe in an inclusive society that helps people better themselves, provides a safety net for those who fall on hard times, and is generally interested and invested in the well-being of our fellow man/woman/other. well the last 5 years has put paid to that, and the next 5 will be crushing what remains of it in to a fine dust.
Dougie is the latest in the long line of ****s who've posted here with half truths and outright bollocks, and just like all the others, as soon as you knock those away, the subject gets changed with no acknowledgement or further discussion, and a bit later on up pops more recycled bollocks. plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. no more for me.
So you’ve never borrowed money to improve your long term prospects, Dougie? Many people borrow money to buy a car to get to work to earn the money to pay the debt on a house they live in – the alternative is not being able to work or have a roof over your head.
Of course but the reality is that S EU countries have still not been able to pay off the last round of bailout. I posted a recent piece from the Guardian which explains the implications of this recent recovery plan.
And yet a great many votes came from less well off people, makes you think eh?
Nope, they were just targeted based on their prejudices about who could be blamed for taking 'their' jobs/opportunities from them. Different people were targeted with different messages depending on what could be gleaned from their social media 'likes', 'friends' etc amongst other things (remember Cambridge Analytica?)
To paraphrase Freddie Mercury et al:
"Find them somebody to ha-ate, find them somebody to ha-te, can anybody find theeeeeeemmmm somebody toooooooo HATE".
Never before has there been so much ability for one party/campaign/cause to tell targeted, yet different, lies to so many different groups.
Where would you rather live, Dougie? A country in debt where you can't get an appointment for your cancer within two months or another which is slightly more in debt where you can get an appointment in the time it takes to drive from London to Malaga?
I got an appointment for my cancer in a week and the operation happened the next week.
Sorry I misread your comment though, the point I was making was that the EU has now piled more debt on already weakened economies, however if you are telling me that I could have flown to Spain to get treated faster, would that have been true?
I'm sceptical on that one.
the reality is that S EU countries have still not been able to pay off the last round of bailout.
I asked you this before and predictably you completely ignored it but,
So what? Why do you care? How does the economy of some tiny piss-ant country 2,000 miles away affect your daily life?
I'll just leave this here:
Lucky you dougie, my sister had a fair wait at the start of hers and died a couple of years ago.
the point I was making was that the EU has now piled more debt on already weakened economies,
~Wrong - much of this round of bailout will be grants not loans - ie not to be paid back
So what? Why do you care? How does the economy of some tiny piss-ant country 2,000 miles away affect your daily life?
I suppose not any more but it would have as part of the EU
Lucky you dougie, my sister had a fair wait at the start of hers and died a couple of years ago.
Sorry for your loss
Yes I was lucky, and touch wood have remained lucky.
touch wood
Figures.
I suppose not any more but it would have as part of the EU
Let's try that again, pedant.
So what? Why did you care? How did the economy of some tiny piss-ant country 2,000 miles away affect your daily life?
A family member, Dougie. Chances of survival with the NHS were close to zero, in Spain better than 20% which isn't great but we're hoping. Sometimes dual nationality is worth more than all the health insurance you can buy.
So what? Why did you care? How did the economy of some tiny piss-ant country 2,000 miles away affect your daily life?
Because someone was constantly whispering in his ear that 'some EU states are taking the piss, taking our money, it is always the UK that meets it obligations and other parts of the EU are having it away with us, the Germans are using our money to buy the dependence of smaller countries to achieve what they could not in two world wars (and incidentally one world cup)' etc. etc.
Repeat to fade.
Anecdotally it was amusing to see the number of British registered cars on the autobahn between Berlin and Lodz/Warsaw. Enjoying their holiday visiting family I assume. I think we were allowed to be amused without being racist as Madame is half Polish and we were visiting her familily but on French plates.
Whilst we are on the topic of, I presume, Greek indebtedness, back in the day when I used to bother arguing with Brexies on FB I had an 'encounter' that typified most of these FB interactions.
Reading through a thread, alternating between reading it through my fingers and laughing out loud, I spotted a Gammony Brexie who had managed a full 180 in a sub-thread based on one of his comments.
His first comment was along the lines of "I wanted Brexit because I don't want my money being spent bailing out a bunch of ****less feta munchers".
Within a handful of comments he was giving it (I paraphrase) "We're much better out of the EU, just look at how the heartless teutonic bullies are treating those poor impoverished Greeks". His language wasn't as flowery, mind, and the spelling was atrocious...
When I pointed out that he was trying (probably unconsciously) to play both ends against the middle he insulted me and issued a physical threat.
He called me a little this and a little that. Funnily enough, though, looking at his profile pics I would say he was under average height, whilst I am a tad over. Now, playing amateur psychologist for a moment......
Back in 2008 I had some tense debates with German friends about Eurobonds to bale out the Greeks, Portugese and Spanish who were facing interest rates between 12 and 25%. Now even the Germans recognise that help should have been given and not doing so this time around would be repeating the same mistakes.
Last time around Europe failed to recover from sub prime as fast as those ecomonic zones that simply printed money and handed it out. Germany suffered from its own tight fistedness. This time around they don't want to repeat being in a zone that is slow to recover.
I don’t want my money being spent
I can't remember exact figures, but assuming an average wage (a bold assumption in Gammonland) your contribution to the EU annually was I think something like fifty quid. An individual's contribution to sending aid to Greece was likely in the order of fractions of a penny.
The amount of money we paid into the EU was grossly overstated and as has been said more than once previously is in total less than brexit has already cost us.
People got upset that they saw some countries getting more out of the EU than they put in… because they could not accept that ALL members get out more than they put in. This confuses them ‘if they are gaining, we must be losing’, they can’t comprehend the multiplier effect of countries working closely together.
People got upset that they saw some countries getting more out of the EU than they put in… because they could not accept that ALL members get out more than they put in. This confuses them ‘if they are gaining, we must be losing’, they can’t comprehend the multiplier effect of countries working closely together.
It stemmed from a mindset that approached everything to do with the EU as 'them and us' and that 'they' were on a gravy train with 'our' money. Back to the early 90s again. Drip-drip.
But of course not, they were just thick/didn’t understand the implications/ uneducated?
Yes, all of that, or wilfully ignorant, in my experience. Four years ago it was all about comparative benefits - no leavers are talking about benefits any more.
no leavers are talking about benefits any more
They don't need to worry, though, because they'll blame everyone else other than themselves.
They don’t need to worry, though, because they’ll blame everyone else other than themselves.
This. Forever. It’s how they started. It is of course how they’ll go on. The leave campaign was largely ‘Us vs them’ and it appealed directly to that mode of thought/personality. It also bolstered decades of drip-drip ‘up yours’ anti-EU/anti-immigrant tabloid propaganda/outrage-bait that is as much a part of the English ‘education’ as the fact that ‘we’ won WW2 because of Britishness.
This report includes several different surveys and opinion polls asking Britons why they voted the way they did in the EU referendum. It identifies that the two main reasons people voted Leave were ‘immigration’ and ‘sovereignty’, whereas the main reason people voted Remain was ‘the economy’.
The report also identifies several other resasons why people voted leave such as ‘to teach British politicians a lesson’ or a ‘protest vote’. Among possible reasons for voting Remain is ‘a strong attachment to Europe.’
Education is a factor. Was it the factor? Probably. Outweighed of course by a rushed ‘advisory’ Y/N referendum which was sold by Leave as ‘last chance’, ‘your decision will be implemented’) kicked into play during recession/austerity and won a by what I feel to be a criminally slim majority given the importance and significance of the decision.
The paper, published in the peer-reviewed journal World Development, applied a multivariate regression analysis and logit model to areas of the country to identify why people voted the way they did.
The level of higher education in an area was far more important than age, gender, the number of immigrants, or income in predicting the way an area voted, the researchers found.
Age and gender were both significant but not as important as education level, the researchers found. Income and number of immigrants in an area were not found to be a significant factor in how people voted.
There were iirc two anomalous areas (Malvern and N Devon) where they voted leave yet were also on average more educated. It’s probably no coincidence that the two areas are characterised by an older, insular, whiter, and typically Tory population.
Just been rereading a book on critical thinking and it talks a lot about 2016 us election and brexit referendum. It has this assessment of an individuals psychology:
His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.
At first reading I assumed that it was talking about Trump, Boris, Cummings or some other moral vacuum of a vote leave high up. Turns out, and at the risk of invoking Godwin, it is actually a profile of Hitler drawn up by the US office of strategic services during WW2 and is now considered to be the blueprint for tyrrany and dictatorship.
Godwin won’t help the fact that a good percentage of the electorate believe their blonde savior is delivering them from both Stalin/ism and the hordes of impure job-stealers and human vermin
Education as in the issue of remain/ leave or education in general?
If it needs explaining then.............
If it needs explaining then………….
Almost as if there’s a theme. ‘Who needs experts’...when this thing called ‘gut-feeling’ is all you need. There is also ‘common sense’. You can use it as a label for any thought/motive. Brilliant! Cheesypeez
Its a pity they didnt do an IQ test as the exit poll, we could have used it to discount a lot of votes
Education as in the issue of remain/ leave or education in general?
Who was the last forumite who did this? I vaguely remember (probably on the original of this thread) someone striding in and throwing all sorts of brash assertions around with a Pomp and Circumstance background tune - parump....parump....parumpety....boom -tish.
They ended up like this too. Querying the semantics of words such as 'and', 'it' and 'or' ad nauseam.
But I suppose reductio ad absurdum is the logical path of any blindly optimistic defence of Brexit, so no real surprise there.
I think I'm still allowed to challenge the, "everyone is stupid we are smarter attitude" which previals on STW.
I think I’m still allowed to challenge the, “everyone is stupid we are smarter attitude”.
You are. Challenging it without proving it is difficult when you get into any detail, though.
Absolutely. It would help if you could post something both sensible and positive about Brexit. The floor is yours....
Education as in the issue of remain/ leave or education in general?
Moot question. The two are so very closely intertwined in this context as to be indistinguishable from each other IMO.
Moottrying to divert the discussion down a rabbit hole of ever smaller clarifications question.
FTFY.
Dougiedogg
If you want to challenge that stereotype then please list the actual real advantages we get from brexit. NOt just platitudes but concrete advantages
“everyone is stupid we are smarter attitude”
There are people far smarter than any of us who want Brexit to happen because they stand to benefit from it.
Do you stand to benefit from it? If so, how?
Its a pity they didnt do an IQ test as the exit poll, we could have used it to discount a lot of votes
Mainly leavers - the educated folk voted remain by a huge margin.
Do you stand to benefit from it? If so, how?
My company sells a lot into the US market, a trade deal would no doubt help us
Even if the price of that deal is a reduction in employment protection to us standards to remain competitive?
^ Bingo
All that guff to get to the point. So how does that help the UK long term? And is this (partly?) why you never got back about the NHS selloff docu I politely asked you to consider watching? Getting a big whiff of the ‘I’m alright’ part of the union Jack here? As ever, open to evidence rather than the oft-unreliable git-instinct.
Even if the price of that deal is a reduction in employment protection to us standards to remain competitive?
Do you think that's on the cards? I thought part of the Gov manifesto was to improve min wage/rights etc?
^. Bingo. I suspected as much but remained polite
Euroscepticism was my main motivator at the time
Its certain thats the aim Dougie. The tories have said so. "bonfire of red tape"
If you really think that the tories who have fought every improvement in workplace rights and who have eroded many hard earned rights are going to improve things you are living in lala land. We already have the worst rights in western europe and in the european discussions one of the sticking points is that the tories want to be able to reduce standards below the EU minimums to undercut EU companies
My company sells a lot into the US market, a trade deal would no doubt help us
No doubt? Strong words. Good luck.
dougiedogg
MemberI thought part of the Gov manifesto was to improve min wage/rights etc?
Like how they've committed to not lowering food standards?
Do you think that’s on the cards? I thought part of the Gov manifesto was to improve min wage/rights etc?
Yes it was on the manifesto but although our terms and conditions are allegedly better than Europes they would not legally sign to keep it that way (why would they do that then ?)
A 12% paycut has just been brought in by my firm as the economy/construction has tanked, hopefully some of these magical trade deals will get it back for me
Do you think that’s on the cards? I thought part of the Gov manifesto was to improve min wage/rights etc?
Tory? Manifesto? Pledge?
Do me a favour, you are now wing people off.
They've already reneged on countless 'promises'. Why was so much on standards specifically moved from the WA to the Political Declaration? Answer, because one is legally binding, the other isn't.
For *'s sake man.
Do me a favour, you are now w***ing people off.
I think Dougie is just trolling
His comment about wanting to be like Switzerland was too daft to be real, at this point no one is unaware what concessions Swiss have to make for SM access
BS or not?
UK pharma is also concerned that the UK could drop out of a Europe-wide initiative to crack down on fake medicines as a result of Brexit.
Arrangements under the falsified medicines directive (FMD) came into effect this month allowing medicines to be traced along the supply chain using a special barcode.
But it is not clear whether the system will be in place in April as Brexit would require the UK to leave the system.
Dr Rick Greville, director of supply chain at the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry (ABPI), said: “Billions of packs of medicines travel around the EU annually, destined for over 500 million patients. This new system means that patients across Europe will have the best protection from fake medicines in the world.
“It would be an absolute travesty if NHS patients aren’t part of a system specifically designed to protect them. But that’s exactly what could happen in a ‘no deal’ Brexit. It is just another reason why we urgently need a Brexit deal.”
https://pharmaphorum.com/brexit-implications-pharma/
The UK could pay £500 million more per week for drugs following a post-Brexit trade deal with the USA.
Worry? or not?
https://fullfact.org/health/500-million-nhs-drug-prices/
The NHS is on the table and your response is to grab a Dougie-bag? #atthetable
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/brexit-2020/page/46/#post-11312784
You do know what America first means, don’t you? Don’t expect a trade deal that helps you if it risks US interests.
He's got to be trolling he believed Boris when he said the Tories would improve pay/rights 🤣🤣🤣
Ok, you guys are right, I've done my best, I'm wrong. I'm nieve but I've learned a lot from this.
Apologies for wasting your time. If I waste any more of mine I'll get sacked and I wont be able to blame brexit
Genuinely not trolling though.
And im still a eurosceptic
You do know what America first means, don’t you? Don’t expect a trade deal that helps you if it risks US interests.
And add to that the fact that once Trumpy (if it is him) have been handed the keys to the NHS and start demonstrating a benefit to US voters of increased drug pricing, no US president, not Obama, not Kennedy, not FDR, not Mother ****ing Theresa will be able (or willing) to reverse it.
Come election time, can anyone honestly see a US presidential candidate stand up and say "We're going to put drug prices here in the US back up so we can pass on the benefit to Britain"?
This stuff is irreversible.
And im still a eurosceptic
You can be 'sceptical' about something without burning your own house down to demonstrate your scepticism.
You are wasting everyone's time now.
Actually scrub that. I am wasting my own time being trolled by you, and I can do something about that.
Time to take back control. I'm out for a bit.
Euroscepticism was my main motivator at the time
And im still a eurosceptic
I'd gathered that, the question is why? What don't you like about being part of a strong trading block that has been succesful in defending your interests for the last 40 years, including reasonably fair trading arrangements with the US which are so important to your job?
these broad and far-reaching changes, will arise under any scenario, regardless of the outcome of negotiations between the European Union and the United Kingdom.
Keep scrolloing down, it gets really interesting at financial services.
So many docs to read:
This one is for the Channel Tunnel, and insists that the whole link be under EU regs… with France being handed the responsibly for sorting that with “us”.
OK Dougie took his toys, but can anyone support his concerns of an EU ‘superstate’? I believe in trying one’s level best to try and gather indeoendent evidence which SUPPORTS one’s opponent’s arguments, ie try and win their argument rather than defeat it. This, I find, is a good way to see how well that argument stands ups. Best practise and all.
I’d like to see the ‘evidence’ that fuelled the scaremongering*. He didn’t just pluck it out of his gut? IIRC Dougie said that of all issues that the ‘superstate’ was the ‘crux’ of his gut-instinct before voting leave. So what fuelled that instinct?
*(other than the drip-drip of decades of baseless bullshit in the shape of anti-EU/Nationalistic tabloidism that happened long before before the tsunami of same leading up to referendum)
I’m nieve but I’ve learned a lot from this.
Apologies for wasting your time.
If the former statement is sincere then it's not been a waste of time.